pwcc (part two)

[ShoelessCrusader]

It sounds like a stupid question, but after reading a few pages of this thread, I have to wonder if some of you are truly getting any enjoyment out of this hobby.

With regards to Brent, I have both consigned and won cards from his auctions, and have been satisfied with both. None of the cards I've consigned with him look like they were altered in any way. In fact, I recently consigned a 55 Topps Jackie Robinson PSA 8--very nice card, no doubt, but there was a small black print mark on his chin that is noticeable. When the auction went live, guess what? The print mark was still there. It had not been altered.

As far as prices goes, yes, his auctions usually command premium prices. But so do high-end AH's like REA, Mile High, or Memory Lane, and he has high-end material every month that in many cases can match them, so not only are his auctions going to attract more buyers, but more buyers with deeper pockets.

Does any of this prove he's 100% not a cheat? No, it doesn't. We both live in the SF Bay area, and I did have the chance to meet Brent and his wife once while dropping off a consignment, and both of them seem like down-to-earth, level-headed people... But who knows? They could really be Bonnie and Clyde...lol

What I do know is this: if you spend the majority of your time and energy worrying and complaining about the hobby, what good is it to even be in the hobby in the first place? I'm sure most of you are well-intentioned in trying to preserve the integrity of the hobby, and I commend you for that, but don't let in consume you to the point it no longer becomes fun.

Sorry to chime in--just giving my two cents worth. I'm going to get back to what I love doing--admiring my T3 Turkey Reds. Peace, guys! And enjoy your collections!

[HRBAKER]

This thread has become one of the classics.

[HRBAKER]

To answer your question, I despise fraud, feel like the hobby is rampant with it and yes, I enjoy collecting.

[ShoelessCrusader]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

This thread has become one of the classics.

Glad to contribute, Jeff. BTW, did you happen to check out the nice T205 PSA 7 Baker card from last week's REA auction? Awesome card, especially for the very difficult T205 set...

[ALR-bishop]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

To answer your question, I despise fraud, feel like the hobby is rampant with it and yes, I enjoy collecting.

+ 1. I have discussed this with two people in Charlottetown Canada, and they are very, very concerned

[JollyElm]

The road to hell is paved with apologists.

[calvindog]

I've been gone for the day but now have just learned that Jamie actually does believe that Brent committed fraud -- despite his loud protests to the contrary last night -- but because he apparently met him for 30 seconds and believes the man loves his wife, he doesn't want him to get raped at San Quentin. So that's why he acted like a jackass last night and did all that he could to discourage any action to be taken against Brent. Apparently, anyone who discusses fraud in a PWCC auction is worse than those who commit such fraud and needs to be attacked. The fraudsters should be given a pass, of course, because of the whole love for wife thing. Got it.

I would state the obvious that no one put a gun to Brent's head to cause him to fudge scans or do any other funny stuff in his auctions. But to Jamie, Brent apparently has no liability in any of this -- because he loves his wife and he doesn't want Brent to be raped at San Quentin. And Brent will end up at San Quentin because, of course, Jamie knows so much about the American penal system and where crooked baseball card auctioneers go upon conviction: San Quentin, the Big House, Rape City. Got it.

On the topic of personal responsibility -- of which Jamie apparently doesn't believe anyone should have -- he PMed me this morning and asked me to remove his full name that I put in one of my posts. I ignored his request because I find it wrong that he could lie and obfuscate on the board like he did last night in order to protect someone who he himself believes defrauded people in this hobby -- but he doesn't want any possible future employer to see what a dishonest, clearly mentally imbalanced, possibly heavily medicated mental patient that he is. Perhaps if people like him were required to leave their full names by their posts -- without periods in between letters or an @ instead of an "a" -- then they'd be more responsible and honest with what they post out here.

Finally, Jamie, I insulted you last night not because you 'kicked' my 'butt' in the argument out here but because you are a lying, mentally imbalanced moron. Thank you for again proving that today.

[cyseymour]

Originally Posted by cyseymour

Jeff says he is guilty and ought to be prosecuted. I never said Brent was innocent, just that he shouldn't be prosecuted. If law enforcement chooses not to prosecute Brent, then obviously they agree with me and disagree with Jeff. If Brent is prosecuted and found innocent, then he still shouldn't have been prosecuted as he will have been exonerated. So for Jeff to be correct, Brent needs to be both prosecuted and convicted.

Here is what I wrote last night.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Eric I am not exactly sure what you are asking. Only a person who can allege that he/she has been harmed can bring a civil claim for damages, and to allege fraud one needs at least a reasonable factual basis for making that allegation, mere speculation is not enough. The "public" has no standing to sue, although of course a governmental body can vindicate the public interest.

Peter,

Thank you for replying in a sincerely civil manner. I have just sent you a PM to discuss this matter further, offline.

Best Regards,

Eric

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Big surprise that fraud runs rampant in our hobby. Jamie Bon..eparth is exhibit A.

Jeff,

With all due respect, accusing Jamie of being a fraudster may possibly be outside of your purview. There may be members of Net54 who take exception to his methods of communicating; however, being confrontational does not make one a fraud.

Sincerely,

Eric

[Rob D.]

Originally Posted by Eric72

Jeff,

With all due respect, accusing Jamie of being a fraudster may possibly be outside of your purview. There may be members of Net54 who take exception to his methods of communicating; however, being confrontational does not make one a fraud.

Sincerely,

Eric

I read that post by Jeff to mean that fraud runs rampant in the hobby because there are so many ignorant people who, because of their ignorance, set themselves up to be victims. But Jeff certainly can speak for himself.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Eric72

Jeff,

With all due respect, accusing Jamie of being a fraudster may possibly be outside of your purview. There may be members of Net54 who take exception to his methods of communicating; however, being confrontational does not make one a fraud.

Sincerely,

Eric

I didn't say he was a fraudster. I was clearly implying when hobbyists do all that they can to make excuses for fraud, falsely deny that fraud occurred or do anything they can to stop discussions about fraud we have a problem. Purview. LOL

[cyseymour]

Originally Posted by calvindog

I didn't say he was a fraudster. I was clearly implying when hobbyists do all that they can to make excuses for fraud, falsely deny that fraud occurred or do anything they can to stop discussions about fraud we have a problem. Purview. LOL

Yeah, me and the 99.99999999% of the earth's population who don't give a shit about this red dot are all frauds. Only you and your small group of sycophants are the real people. Btw, congrats on surviving the Waco massacre.

[cyseymour]

Originally Posted by calvindog

But let's keep this issue going, the more we talk about it on here the more people are coming out with examples of fraud in his auctions. You're doing a great job of keeping the spotlight on the fraud in PWCC auctions.

After 6,000 page views, no new examples have arisen, which means...

Originally Posted by calvindog

Do you think that a red dot on a single card is the iceberg itself or just the tip?

..this red dot is a pretty small iceberg. You'd need a microscope just to see the polar bears.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by cyseymour

Yeah, me and the 99.99999999% of the earth's population who don't give a shit about this red dot are all frauds. Only you and your small group of sycophants are the real people. Btw, congrats on surviving the Waco massacre.

Dude, you're bipolar. Eat more Klonopin.

PS an inmate is being raped right now.

[cyseymour]

I have found the red dot. Brent gave it to this person.

[Bocabirdman]

Geez guys, you are no longer beating a dead horse. You are no longer even beating the wet spot where a horse used to be. Now you are just thumping the ground hoping a horse comes by and drops dead in the path of your swing. Three threads. No resolution. Neither of you is either going to convince the other. You are both partially correct and the actual truth lies somewhere in between. Give it up. This thread needs to sink from the top of the first page. Let's get back to celebrating this hobby that we all share.

Here is a scan just for the hell of it. Just in case anybody on a baseball card forum wants to .......Gasp!!!...see a baseball card.

1939f 001.jpg

Why did this card only get a 1.5? The back is clean with no paper loss

[RCMcKenzie]

Jamie and Jeff are both good guys, but the point of the thread is worthwhile. Folks should do their own due diligence before buying cards. Study the card series you are buying. Study the prices they go for. Buyer Beware.

[bobbyw8469]

I'm just dumbfounded that Brent is always able to find these bidders who have no earthly idea what the current going rate is for any particular card in any particular grade. Got a card that sells in the $700-$900 range?? Brent sells his for $2,000. Got a card that sells for $500-$800 within a 15 year time period? Brent sells not even a good example of the card for $1,800. How come every single one of the cards that I auction off/sell privately, fall within that mean/median range, yet he always seems to find bidders that have no concept of pricing in regards to cards and will gladly pay PSA 9 prices for a PSA 6 copy???????

[Peter_Spaeth]

I am with Bobby -- there do seem to be quite a number of prices that are not just high, but so off the charts as to be inexplicable. I wish I had an answer for how this happens.

[MikeGarcia]

Originally Posted by Bocabirdman

Geez guys, you are no longer beating a dead horse. You are no longer even beating the wet spot where a horse used to be. Now you are just thumping the ground hoping a horse comes by and drops dead in the path of your swing. Three threads. No resolution. Neither of you is either going to convince the other. You are both partially correct and the actual truth lies somewhere in between. Give it up. This thread needs to sink from the top of the first page. Let's get back to celebrating this hobby that we all share.

Here is a scan just for the hell of it. Just in case anybody on a baseball card forum wants to .......Gasp!!!...see a baseball card.

Attachment 119484

Why did this card only get a 1.5? The back is clean with no paper loss

Because of the tiny pinhole.....hold it up to a bright light.....happened to me a couple times too

[Bocabirdman]

Originally Posted by MikeGarcia

Because of the tiny pinhole.....hold it up to a bright light.....happened to me a couple times too

I have looked at that card countless times and never saw it.......

[cyseymour]

Thank you, Superman, for saving the hobby. Now here is your cape.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by cyseymour

Well, even if he isn't small time, this is just how I feel about him. I went to his website and the photo of him smiling with his significant other. You can tell that they really love each other, and I'm sure that there are all these people in his life who really love him.

When you think about the amount of suffering it would cause to imprison him, it is scary. Based on where he lives, I am guessing that he would go to San Quentin. I have seen a documentary on that prison and it is really scary. There is a tremendous amount of violence in those environments.

The trouble is that when someone is the victim of violence like that, it creates a tremendous amount of trauma and suffering that can stay with them for many years, decades, and their entire life, even. It is a very sad thing and people who experience it often never fully recover.

I myself did volunteer work in a prison when I was a college student. The prisoners are very friendly to you and will smile, but what goes on behind the scenes is really ugly. I was counseling a gang leader in Springfield, and during my time with him, he and his "friends" beat up a rival gang member very badly. That guy had to be transferred to another prison and was in very bad condition. So the dynamics that go into play there are intense.

Now, I understand that Mastro & Co. did millions of dollars worth of fraud and their sentences will be well deserved. It was a tremendous and courageous effort on behalf of Jeff and many others, and I admire that tremendously. But the situation with PWCC seems far from that right now. The best evidence we had right now is just a hockey card scan missing a print dot.

Now, I realize that most likely more went on, but if the only concrete evidence of fraud we had is that hockey card, as well as some scans that are slightly brighter than usual, then to send him away to a place like San Quentin just for that would be incredibly cruel. And that I why I've found myself so upset about this issue.

Freak.

[cyseymour]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Freak.

Yeah, I'm freak for caring about real people, while you're normal for obsessing about red dots. Go tell it to your little minions.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Hysterical, click on this thread and Brent's banner ad shows above it.

[ullmandds]

Yea Pete...I've been noticing that for days...Oh the irony!!!!

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Jamie Bon.e..parth

Well, even if he isn't small time, this is just how I feel about him. I went to his website and the photo of him smiling with his significant other. You can tell that they really love each other, and I'm sure that there are all these people in his life who really love him.

When you think about the amount of suffering it would cause to imprison him, it is scary. Based on where he lives, I am guessing that he would go to San Quentin. I have seen a documentary on that prison and it is really scary. There is a tremendous amount of violence in those environments.

The trouble is that when someone is the victim of violence like that, it creates a tremendous amount of trauma and suffering that can stay with them for many years, decades, and their entire life, even. It is a very sad thing and people who experience it often never fully recover.

I myself did volunteer work in a prison when I was a college student. The prisoners are very friendly to you and will smile, but what goes on behind the scenes is really ugly. I was counseling a gang leader in Springfield, and during my time with him, he and his "friends" beat up a rival gang member very badly. That guy had to be transferred to another prison and was in very bad condition. So the dynamics that go into play there are intense.

Now, I understand that Mastro & Co. did millions of dollars worth of fraud and their sentences will be well deserved. It was a tremendous and courageous effort on behalf of Jeff and many others, and I admire that tremendously. But the situation with PWCC seems far from that right now. The best evidence we had right now is just a hockey card scan missing a print dot.

Now, I realize that most likely more went on, but if the only concrete evidence of fraud we had is that hockey card, as well as some scans that are slightly brighter than usual, then to send him away to a place like San Quentin just for that would be incredibly cruel. And that I why I've found myself so upset about this issue.

Freak!

[Sean1125]

[Iron Horse]

Bump
since his auction has started lol
got my bids in

[cyseymour]

Jeff,

This thread could go on forever if you refuse to let it go. I don't want to waste much more time with this. You might be a lawyer, but this was not your best legal work.

If you're still looking for the red dot, then there is a place you can always find one - your asshole.

Jamie Bon.epar.th

[cyseymour]

Check your asshole to find the red dot, Jeff.

[calvindog]

Jamie when the meds have kicked in:

Originally Posted by Jamie Bo.nep.arth

Now, I understand that Mastro & Co. did millions of dollars worth of fraud and their sentences will be well deserved. It was a tremendous and courageous effort on behalf of Jeff and many others, and I admire that tremendously.

And:

Jeff,

I was very upset last night.

Kind regards,

Jamie Bo,nep,arth


The other posts he made are clearly when Jamie is off his meds.

Meanwhile, the more this thread is seen, the quicker it will rise to the very top of a google search when a future employer wishes to confirm how utterly insane you are.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by cyseymour

I don't want to waste much more time with this.

We all believe you. Really.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Bid History: Details


Bidding Details

Bidder Information
Bidder: u***r( 2057)
Feedback: 100%Positive
Item description: Item Title: 1956 Topps Mickey Mantle #135 PSA 8 NM-MT (PWCC)
Bids on this item: 18
30-Day Summary
Total bids: 342
Items bid on: 99
Bid activity (%) with this seller: 5%
Bid retractions: 5
Bid retractions (6 months): 29

[jhs5120]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Bid History: Details


Bidding Details

Bidder Information
Bidder: u***r( 2057)
Feedback: 100%Positive
Item description: Item Title: 1956 Topps Mickey Mantle #135 PSA 8 NM-MT (PWCC)
Bids on this item: 18
30-Day Summary
Total bids: 342
Items bid on: 99
Bid activity (%) with this seller: 5%
Bid retractions: 5
Bid retractions (6 months): 29

Did you email Brent about this, or just wanted to share it with us?

[calvindog]

http://youtu.be/5uTYXlLxpZw

[Peter_Spaeth]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MVplfdNC6E

[Cardboard Junkie]

ha ha ha ha....!!!!!

[Peter_Spaeth]

The current high bidder on PWCC 52 Topps Mantle. I don't get how someone retracts 28 bids in 6 months, but perhaps someone can enlighten me.

Bid History: Details


Bidding Details

Bidder Information
Bidder: -***o ( private )
Feedback: 100% Positive
Item description: Item Title: 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle #311 PSA 6 EXMT (PWCC)
Bids on this item: 1
30-Day Summary
Total bids: 81
Items bid on: 25
Bid activity (%) with this seller: 60% Help
Bid retractions: 0
Bid retractions (6 months): 28

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The current high bidder on PWCC 52 Topps Mantle. I don't get how someone retracts 28 bids in 6 months, but perhaps someone can enlighten me.

Bid History: Details


Bidding Details

Bidder Information
Bidder: -***o ( private )
Feedback: 100% Positive
Item description: Item Title: 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle #311 PSA 6 EXMT (PWCC)
Bids on this item: 1
30-Day Summary
Total bids: 81
Items bid on: 25
Bid activity (%) with this seller: 60% Help
Bid retractions: 0
Bid retractions (6 months): 28

I sell about 500-1000 items on ebay per month (non baseball) and get a lot of bid retractions from people who bid multiple times. They are doing it to see what the high bidder's max is, and once they go over it they retract their bid. Sometimes these bidders will bid at the end of the auction and sometimes they won't. It's not shill bidding because I own the items...I don't think we can say every time we see activity like this that it is shill bidding, there just seem to be a lot of idiots out there who bid like this. And ebay has made it easier for these idiots to do this too with the "Increase your bid" button. I have ebay connected to my iphone so I hear it when it happens.

[Wayward99]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

I sell about 500-1000 items on ebay per month (non baseball) and get a lot of bid retractions from people who bid multiple times. They are doing it to see what the high bidder's max is, and once they go over it they retract their bid. Sometimes these bidders will bid at the end of the auction and sometimes they won't. It's not shill bidding because I own the items...I don't think we can say every time we see activity like this that it is shill bidding, there just seem to be a lot of idiots out there who bid like this. And ebay has made it easier for these idiots to do this too with the "Increase your bid" button. I have ebay connected to my iphone so I hear it when it happens.

Agreed - I've only been selling for a little over a year (all baseball cards, different eras) and I've seen some head-scratching activity - including one bidder, the first bidder mind you, place 10 separate bids in rapid fashion on the same item. As mentioned above I think the 'Increase your bid' button, as well as starting items at $.99, skews some of the metrics when it comes to analyzing bid activity on a given item or with a particular seller (% bid with seller, as an example). The number/volume of bids can be very high with $.99 auctions and eBay's bid increments.

That said, in almost all instances where I've had a bid retraction on an item I've blocked that bidder; the few exceptions have been when a bidder immediately reached out to me to apologize for a fat finger, or when it was the first bid/early bid with an inconsequential dollar amount and the bidder put in a new bid that was conceivably more in line with their original intention (ex: $5 instead of the original $50). That's just been my experience and approach since I know that bid retractions on the surface leave a sour taste in people's mouths.

[bobbyw8469]

That said, in almost all instances where I've had a bid retraction on an item I've blocked that bidder; the few exceptions have been when a bidder immediately reached out to me to apologize for a fat finger, or when it was the first bid/early bid with an inconsequential dollar amount and the bidder put in a new bid that was conceivably more in line with their original intention (ex: $5 instead of the original $50). That's just been my experience and approach since I know that bid retractions on the surface leave a sour taste in people's mouths.

+1. I always block bid retractors, especially when they are high bidder for a couple of days, they think they are going to win, so they retract their bid with the "entered the wrong amount" excuse, and do not rebid.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

I sell about 500-1000 items on ebay per month (non baseball) and get a lot of bid retractions from people who bid multiple times. They are doing it to see what the high bidder's max is, and once they go over it they retract their bid. Sometimes these bidders will bid at the end of the auction and sometimes they won't.

I can understand why a bidder would do that based on what you're saying(although I think it's unethical). However, you have to realize how that makes you look as a seller. I beilve you, Dan, that you're not shilling your own items, but to an eBay bidder it may look otherwise.

I rarely sell anything on eBay anymore but, if I were a volume seller and I had bidders retracting their bids, I would ban them as bidders.

You have to look at this from a buyer's perspective. If I'm high bidder on an item and another bidder places multiple bids to expose my proxy and then retracts his last bid, to me I feel like I have been shilled up. When that happens to me as a bidder, I retract my bid as well because I think the seller is up to something.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I can understand why a bidder would do that based on what you're saying(although I think it's unethical). However, you have to realize how that makes you look as a seller. I beilve you, Dan, that you're not shilling your own items, but to an eBay bidder it may look otherwise.

I rarely sell anything on eBay anymore but, if I were a volume seller and I had bidders retracting their bids, I would ban them as bidders.

You have to look at this from a buyer's perspective. If I'm high bidder on an item and another bidder places multiple bids to expose my proxy and then retracts his last bid, to me I feel like I have been shilled up. When that happens to me as a bidder, I retract my bid as well because I think the seller is up to something.

I have had a few people accuse me of shill bidding in these instances...I just give them the ebay ID of the person who did it and tell them to contact ebay.

And I love the "entered wrong amount" excuse of people who bid 20 times and then retract their bid.

edited to add: I have also recently found out there are local dealers intent on wrecking some of my auctions...my brother and I recently started attending the state surplus auctions...it can be tricky listing some of the items you get there, we had to re-list a few items multiple times before finally getting a real bidder. Ebay needs to make it much harder to set up an account with them.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

I have had a few people accuse me of shill bidding in these instances...I just give them the ebay ID of the person who did it and tell them to contact ebay.

And I love the "entered wrong amount" excuse of people who bid 20 times and then retract their bid.

Dan, agree with all that you wrote -- it's certainly not the auctioneer's fault in all these instances (if any).

By the way, do you doctor your scans or look the other way as your consignors shill bid?

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Dan, agree with all that you wrote -- it's certainly not the auctioneer's fault in all these instances (if any).

By the way, do you doctor your scans or look the other way as your consignors shill bid?

I don't know how to doctor a scan, but I did have one consignor (a friend) who would give me an item or two per month to list and I noticed he was bidding on his own item...I put the brakes on that quickly.

[thecatspajamas]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I can understand why a bidder would do that based on what you're saying(although I think it's unethical). However, you have to realize how that makes you look as a seller. I beilve you, Dan, that you're not shilling your own items, but to an eBay bidder it may look otherwise.

I rarely sell anything on eBay anymore but, if I were a volume seller and I had bidders retracting their bids, I would ban them as bidders.

You have to look at this from a buyer's perspective. If I'm high bidder on an item and another bidder places multiple bids to expose my proxy and then retracts his last bid, to me I feel like I have been shilled up. When that happens to me as a bidder, I retract my bid as well because I think the seller is up to something.

I've been in that very uncomfortable position of some wacko's crazy bidding strategy making me look bad as a seller several times. So far, it's worked out okay in that I was able to give enough information to whoever was accusing me of shill bidding to satisfy them that it was indeed just a wacko and not me, and I've actually gained a couple of good hobby friends over the course of working things out. In every case though, I banned the wacko from any further bidding, just as I would ban someone from my physical store who came in shouting "HEY HEY HEY HEY HEY HEY" at the top of their lungs the whole time and rubbed everyone's head as they left. Some things you just have to put a stop to because they are disruptive and make everyone uncomfortable, even if the wacko actually makes a purchase and technically hasn't broken any rules.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

I don't know how to doctor a scan, but I did have one consignor (a friend) who would give me an item or two per month to list and I noticed he was bidding on his own item...I put the brakes on that quickly.

Wow, that must have taken you months to accomplish.

PS -- do you love your significant other? If so, how much? Like a little or a lot?

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by thecatspajamas

In every case though, I banned the wacko from any further bidding, just as I would ban someone from my physical store who came in shouting "HEY HEY HEY HEY HEY HEY" at the top of their lungs the whole time and rubbed everyone's head as they left.

What if it was Fat Albert?