New allegations on BO

[CobbSpikedMe]

Originally Posted by Misunderestimated

==
The Graders
I've never been that adept at predicting grades -- others have a much better eye. Still, I have no idea how anyone could ever detect that wax was removed or some other things that are part of this debate ... From the grader's perspective how can they be at fault ? They are innocent dupes unless they take into consideration who the submitter is ... Of course if you are intent on deceiving the graders that's really easy to get around.
==

They are more like incompetent dupes to be honest. They are Professional Authenticators that can't properly authenticate crap. I'm not saying they are in on it, I'm not saying they aren't, but it's clear they can't do their one job.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by t206madman

I never gave my opinion of any company or person baseball related. I simply asked if I should suspect trimming. I'm going to check into the legality of you displaying my name without my permission. I probably agreed to something allowing this, but it is against my wished and will seek legal advice on the matter. As for sandy hoax, it was fake, and anyone with there head still in there ass this long is beyond repair. If you think I'm crazy Leon, please check out Architects and Engineers for 911 Truth. Maybe you can withness 4000 other crazy engineers who don't think two planes can collapse three buildings at the speed of gravity. You all are the laughable ones, just eating up and believe what the fakes news tells you, steering you sheep into the direction they want you to go.

Again, I never consented to my full name being displayed publicly, and you did that because I mentioned sandy hoax. If you want to play a part in censorship, that's on your conscience. If you want to grow a pair and do some research, I suggest starting with wtc 7 and making your way on up. You all have been deceived greatly, and the PSA scandal is small potatoes compared to what's really going on.

Christopher Ladas of East Lansing, Michigan, go f*ck yourself!

[toppcat]

Originally Posted by t206madman

The elementary school was closed in 2008 due to asbestos and mold. The public records all prove that. The school purchased the 26 trees for each of the deceased before the event happened, there are photos of the trees before the day is supposedly happened. Numerous crisis actors were caught laughing and messing up their lines on the day of the event. There was a sign at the school that said "everyone must check in" and they were handing out water bottles to all the actors that were just walking in circles.

There were no dead victims, it was all fake. I'm 100% positive it was fake, and so are millions of other people. Alex Jones's company is owned by CNN you morons. If you think it's disgusting trying to help people out and tell them the truth, then shame on you.

On 9/11, three buildings collapsed at the speed of gravity due to 2 plane crashes. WTC 7 never got hit by a plane and yet somehow CNN and BBC announced it collapsed before it even did. If you all think this is disgusting and want to further censorship and the demise of America, then fine, take part.

Please take my name off my profile posts, I have no idea why Leon would do that to spite me. Hell just remove my account and ban me, ya'll are too stupid for me.

Go fu** yourself asshole

[pokerplyr80]

Leon in my opinion you should delete this guys posts and quoted responses to them, and ban him from the forum. This is not a good look for your site and reflects poorly on the community if any hobby outsiders stumble upon this thread.

[topcat61]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

This revelation certainly explains the conservation vs alteration post. Assuming pwcc did buy cards that were sent to Moser, cleaned up, submitted to PSA, then resold on their site is that a crime? This would be also assuming that the cards were not trimmed, recolored, corners rebuilt, t206s rebacked, etc. That the only improvements were removing things from the cards that weren't originally there like stains, scrapbook residue, dirt, or creases and wrinkles.

I don't know the answer, and I do know what many on this board and in our hobby think of this practice. But is cleaning a card and selling without disclosing the improvement a crime?

Hello! Technically, altering an item without telling the person before purchase can be fraud. Both Doug Allen and Bill Mastro were convicted and sentenced for it along with shill bidding. For now, PWCC is alleged to have, as it appears, shill bid only. Unless the FBI or the Oregon AG get involved and conduct a thorough forensic investigation of the cards and computers, PWCC doesn't have to respond to anyone. In fact they could make a case against those accusers if they wanted -and I only say that since it looks like they have 50-400 million reasons to do so. It is up to the individuals who believe they were targeted or swindled to open a complaint with law enforcement. In the meantime, keep collecting evidence, build up a case and bring it to court if it's warranted, but I recommend net54 not bringing up the word -fraud, instead using the word "alleged" will bolster your case if you all decide upon it.

I'm just trying to look out for my fellow collectors best interests on net54 is all.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by t206madman

I never gave my opinion of any company or person baseball related. I simply asked if I should suspect trimming. I'm going to check into the legality of you displaying my name without my permission. I probably agreed to something allowing this, but it is against my wished and will seek legal advice on the matter. As for sandy hoax, it was fake, and anyone with there head still in there ass this long is beyond repair. If you think I'm crazy Leon, please check out Architects and Engineers for 911 Truth. Maybe you can withness 4000 other crazy engineers who don't think two planes can collapse three buildings at the speed of gravity. You all are the laughable ones, just eating up and believe what the fakes news tells you, steering you sheep into the direction they want you to go.

Again, I never consented to my full name being displayed publicly, and you did that because I mentioned sandy hoax. If you want to play a part in censorship, that's on your conscience. If you want to grow a pair and do some research, I suggest starting with wtc 7 and making your way on up. You all have been deceived greatly, and the PSA scandal is small potatoes compared to what's really going on.

PLEASE IGNORE THE TROLL. Chances are it is just someone trying to get this thread to go poof.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

Christopher Ladas of Michigan, go f*ck yourself!

Yeah, I had a moment of anger reading his posts too, but then realized he's just a troll looking for reactions to amuse himself. Ignore him and he'll drift off to annoy others.

And I've known some hillbillies..... he's too stupid to be one of them.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Yeah, I had a moment of anger reading his posts too, but then realized he's just a troll looking for reactions to amuse himself. Ignore him and he'll drift off to annoy others.

And I've known some hillbillies..... he's too stupid to be one of them.

My main intent was to shine a light on the cockroach, this site comes up in google searches right at the top.

[Leon]

Generally I think we should let members hang themselves. I think I can handle his lawyer. But he does need to go to another thread. If he pollutes this one there will only be 17 other threads like it on the front page.

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

My main intent was to shine a light on the cockroach, this site comes up in google searches right at the top.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

My main intent was to shine a light on the cockroach, this site comes up in google searches right at the top.

I know, but this type of cockroach is a mutant that thrives on light.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by Mark17

I know, but this type of cockroach is a mutant that thrives on light.

I don't think so...he thought he was anonymous when he made that post. Leon put his name on there with a period in the middle so it didn't show up in Google. I took the period out and gave his location because this isn't 4chan and he doesn't get to anonymously spew garbage like that here.

[Leon]

Well, he doesn't seem to like to be accountable for what he says. Otherwise he wouldn't care that his name is out here. And Dan, right above here, is correct. I did the same name scramble I do for all members who have their name put out here but if another moderator, or someone else, wants to put it out here without scrambling it, it is their call.

Originally Posted by Mark17

I know, but this type of cockroach is a mutant that thrives on light.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Did any other field have the level of pervasive fraud just uncovered in a month by volunteers? The obscured consignees is ONE OF THE MAJOR REASONS we're in this situation.

I can't think of any thing with the combination of the number of items plus the amount of money.

Art /antiques of course has occasional frauds, which can run into the millions for one item. But usually not so many items. I'm not sure about the hobby lobby artifacts thing, but it's probably close.

I've heard there's a lot of altered/fake coins out of China lately, probably equal, but the scammers are international and smarter about covering their tracks.

There were a few stamp guys on Ebay doing similar stuff, hundreds of items. But their stuff was usually pretty inexpensive. I bought a bad stamp, but it was only about $20. (They ruined a pretty nice 60 cent stamp)
And of course, Fox, Sperati, and Fournier were very prolific.

Even some major collections are auctioned under clever names. Sometimes the collectors name comes out after, sometimes not. If the collector is well known, it can be a plus.

[Misunderestimated]

What can be seen ?
This is from the pre-TPG days:
Seriously, can you tell if the wax was removed... The other stuff -- bleaching, trimming (maybe erasing) can be visible if it effects the surface ...

I know that bleaching cracker jack cards was obvious sometimes (the 1914s especially) ...

If I have the "before and after" sure I can tell something is wrong but what if I just have the "after" ?
Isn't this what the graders/authenticators are dealing with?
===
Also -- even Alex Jones himself disowned that conspiracy stuff when he was put under oath. (He said that it was his own personal psychosis or something)

[steve B]

Originally Posted by t206madman

The elementary school was closed in 2008 due to asbestos and mold. The public records all prove that. The school purchased the 26 trees for each of the deceased before the event happened, there are photos of the trees before the day is supposedly happened. Numerous crisis actors were caught laughing and messing up their lines on the day of the event. There was a sign at the school that said "everyone must check in" and they were handing out water bottles to all the actors that were just walking in circles.

There were no dead victims, it was all fake. I'm 100% positive it was fake, and so are millions of other people. Alex Jones's company is owned by CNN you morons. If you think it's disgusting trying to help people out and tell them the truth, then shame on you.

On 9/11, three buildings collapsed at the speed of gravity due to 2 plane crashes. WTC 7 never got hit by a plane and yet somehow CNN and BBC announced it collapsed before it even did. If you all think this is disgusting and want to further censorship and the demise of America, then fine, take part.

Please take my name off my profile posts, I have no idea why Leon would do that to spite me. Hell just remove my account and ban me, ya'll are too stupid for me.

Most of my family is from that general area.
Many of them are first responders or are in education.
They ALL knew someone personally who was involved in one way or another, although thankfully none were directly involved.
One person did have their school host a class or two from sandy hook afterwards since the school wasn't usable and education had to go on.
The first responders were called in to provide services normally covered by the local first responders.

Anyone who believes this rubbish about it being fake has got some serious mental problems.

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

Leon in my opinion you should delete this guys posts and quotes responses to them, and ban him from the forum. This is not a good look for your site and reflects poorly on the community if any hobby outsiders stumble upon this thread.

Leon- I have to agree with this post by Jesse. There's no crime in being an idiot- there are idiots under every rock. But this is a terrible look for the board. People come here to relax and get away from this stuff. It really should be deleted and the poster banned.

He's already hung himself so it's time to move on. At least consider getting rid of this garbage.

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by Misunderestimated

If I have the "before and after" sure I can tell something is wrong but what if I just have the "after" ?

PSA IS BEING PAID UP TO $5,000 PER CARD TO DO THIS. If they claim they can detect it, and they have a Grade Guarantee, and their President's mantra was "NEVER GET CHEATED," wouldn't you think they should be able to actually do this?

[midmo]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

We on Net54, often fall into the trap of thinking we are a large piece of the collecting world. I can't tell you how many times I've had people buy tobacco cards from me and I ask if they're a member of Net 54 and they look at me very confused and ask "what?" Hopefully some take my advice and join, but we are a small percentage of collectors to be sure.

100% agree. In the last few years I've been to shows all over the country (St Louis, Kansas City, Chicago, Atlantic City, White Plains NY, Strongsville OH, Seattle, Phoenix, Dallas, etc) as an attendee or dealer. I've probably met 50 or so Net54 members, but countless people who had no idea what I was talking about when I mentioned Net54. Most recently at Leon's Texas show I had conversations with a few advanced collectors that had not heard about the bogus signed T206s because they don't read message boards. It might be tough to get this info out to the masses.

[Rich Klein]

This was not on the original album but was in the movie. And after reading Net 54 and Blowout for the past week. I'm feeling like we all need to listen to this message. Yes, I know where it is from but the message is what I'm going for here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YsOhmMzgac

[mark evans]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Leon- I have to agree with this post by Jesse. There's no crime in being an idiot- there are idiots under every rock. But this is a terrible look for the board. People come here to relax and get away from this stuff. It really should be deleted and the poster banned.

He's already hung himself so it's time to move on. At least consider getting rid of this garbage.

I agree. This joker needs to be banned.

[kateighty]

This is exactly why I left this forum for a few years. The drama gets out of control. I was 30 when I first became a member here. As a history nerd whose dad was into baseball I randomly got into collecting pre-war cards and joined. I've learned a ton and have mostly been encouraged to be part of this great community. Then there's posts like those above. If I read this nonsense back in 2013 I wouldn't have joined.

Again, could we maybe start a separate sub-forum (whatever it's called) for the recent PWCC etc. stuff? We're all here because we have a shared passion. Fraudsters and trolls shouldn't get in the way of that.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by kateighty

This is exactly why I left this forum for a few years. The drama gets out of control. I was 30 when I first became a member here. As a history nerd whose dad was into baseball I randomly got into collecting pre-war cards and joined. I've learned a ton and have mostly been encouraged to be part of this great community. Then there's posts like those above. If I read this nonsense back in 2013 I wouldn't have joined.

Again, could we maybe start a separate sub-forum (whatever it's called) for the recent PWCC etc. stuff? We're all here because we have a shared passion. Fraudsters and trolls shouldn't get in the way of that.

IMO ignoring fraud only perpetuates it and makes it more likely you'll be a victim. I get the sentiment that I just want to enjoy the hobby, but fraudsters make that very difficult at most levels of collecting.

[Peter_Spaeth]

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=2463

[Peter_Spaeth]

Jay this one's for you.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=2465

[Peter_Spaeth]

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=2460

[swarmee]

You should label the threads you post the links to. If you say something like "ALTERED OLD JUDGE FROM PSA 5(MK) to PSA 6" it might lead people to click them... ;-)

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by swarmee

You should label the threads you post the links to. If you say something like "ALTERED OLD JUDGE FROM PSA 5(MK) to PSA 6" it might lead people to click them... ;-)

Yeah. What might make more sense is a single thread with links to all the bad cards but I don't have the wherewithal to pull that off.

[perezfan]

Any person would have to quit their day job, in order to properly label this endless stream of frauds.

It’s overwhelming and is making me question whether PSA is even examining these cards. I think in many cases it’s a quick glance, and they’ll take your hard-earned money. What a pathetic scam so many collectors have bought into.

[Steve D]

Originally Posted by CobbSpikedMe

But why shouldn't people be allowed to crack out and resubmit for a chance at a higher grade? It's the altering between the crack out and resubmission that the problem, but not the folks that are just trying for a half grade bump and not altering the card any.

Exactly!

Say you submit a card that ends up in the hands of the G.O.D. on a bad day, and it gets graded harshly. Shouldn't you be able to resubmit it to get the grade it should have?

We all know this has happened many times; a card is submitted and it gets a 7. The person knows damned well that the card deserves a 9, so he resubmits it. It ultimately gets graded correctly as a 9.

That is a problem I see in all this commotion right now. A card was initially submitted, and got a 3. It was resubmitted and now, it's a 5. Which one is actually correct? The 3 could have been from the G.O.D. on a bad day, in which case, the 5 is correct.

I am not saying that all of this is simply "much ado about nothing"; not in the slightest. I believe certain individuals have been gaming the system; but, people have been gaming the system for decades upon decades. This isn't a new thing. It needs to be stopped and fixed, but the hobby will go on.

Steve

[kateighty]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

IMO ignoring fraud only perpetuates it and makes it more likely you'll be a victim. I get the sentiment that I just want to enjoy the hobby, but fraudsters make that very difficult at most levels of collecting.

I'm not ignoring it! Totally on your side with this crap! I'm simply saying there should be a separate section on this forum for those threads now that it's become so widespread. It's taking away from why we're here. It's likely very discouraging to those considering starting a Net54 account. I'm not sharing my PSA Philly experience because honestly I don't feel comfortable here and that's a problem. That's my choice and I'd hope you'd respect that.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by kateighty

I'm not ignoring it! Totally on your side with this crap! I'm simply saying there should be a separate section on this forum for those threads now that it's become so widespread. It's taking away from why we're here. It's likely very discouraging to those considering starting a Net54 account. I'm not sharing my PSA Philly experience because honestly I don't feel comfortable here and that's a problem. That's my choice and I'd hope you'd respect that.

You have to expect that the hottest topic to emerge in the hobby basically in its history has to be discussed ad nauseum.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Current PWCC card outed on BO. E90-2 Wagner.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1297563

[swarmee]

1887 N172 Old Judge Timothy Keefe BAT AT READY AT 30 DEGREE

FROM PSA 4

TO PSA 7 HIGHEST GRADED

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=2469

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Current PWCC card outed on BO. E90-2 Wagner.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1297563

Why are there any cards still for sale? Doesn't he realize?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Why are there any cards still for sale? Doesn't he realize?

Judge him by his actions, not his words.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Judge him by his actions, not his words.

He has been informed. Lets see if he takes it down.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Leon

He has been informed. Lets see if he takes it down.

There is a Seattle slew of them. He ain't taking nuttin down

Turn those machines back on!!!!!!!

[pgconboy]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

There is a Seattle slew of them. He ain't taking nuttin down

Turn those machines back on!!!!!!!

The Wagner just got pulled. Not a good sign it was even listed.

[Misunderestimated]

As an aside, whoever "Corndog" is on the other website -- ....Wow ! impressive investigative work.

[kateighty]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

You have to expect that the hottest topic to emerge in the hobby basically in its history has to be discussed ad nauseum.

Well of course. It's just dominating everything else! I'm interested in reading all of this but it's getting overwhelming. I do appreciate though what the OGs have been doing in terms of posting the updated lists that might otherwise get lost in the mix. Thanks for that it really is appreciated.

[Bored5000]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Current PWCC card outed on BO. E90-2 Wagner.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1297563

Of course, Brent's recent video about "conservation" was BS. But pulling that Wagner shows that he does not even believe what he claimed. Why pull a card that had been "conserved" if such conservation is a way to move the hobby forward and not shady in the least?

Edd*e Sm*th

[oldjudge]

[QUOTE=Peter_Spaeth;1884057]Jay this one's for you.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=2465[/i


I break out any slabbed Old Judges I buy and could care less about the grades. Photo clarity is what I care about and last time I checked card doctors haven’t figured out a way to improve that. The guy cleaning the card did a nice job though. I prefer the after to the before.

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Current PWCC card outed on BO. E90-2 Wagner.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1297563

I got an email from eBay that this was removed; blowout had it on one of their submission lists but now has provided proof of alteration. I am glad it has been taken down.

BUT- they still have up the T206 Jennings AB 460 that has been altered despite it being called out here and by email. How many more jacked cards remain in PWCC’s current auction? Many I am sure.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

I got an email from eBay that this was removed; blowout had it on one of their submission lists but now has provided proof of alteration. I am glad it has been taken down.

BUT- they still have up the T206 Jennings AB 460 that has been altered despite it being called out here and by email. How many more jacked cards remain in PWCC’s current auction? Many I am sure.

BO says a list coming today.

[Rhotchkiss]

Nice. Thanks

[Bpm0014]

As for sandy hoax, it was fake, and anyone with there head still in there ass this long is beyond repair.

This clown is so much more intelligent than all of us but cant spell THEIR correctly....

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

How about a card - I think this is misgraded; there is no way this is altered. SGC blew it! the tape holding the card together was most definitely put on in the Croft’s factory, in 1909 and sold like this.

SGC's "A" does not definitely mean the card was altered. It could have been requested only to be autheticated when it was submitted, or the other general reason for an A if not altered is it's considered worse than poor. I agree with you that the assumption most people are going to have is that it's altered - but based on my understanding of the way SGC does things - that is not necessarily the case.

[Leon]

Cut and pasted from the SGC website. Their website could be wrong but it seems to contradict what you said? This is all of the verbiage for their ALT grade.

SGC REJECTION CODES
A
Altered (ALT)

Originally Posted by jchcollins

SGC's "A" does not definitely mean the card was altered. It could have been requested only to be autheticated when it was submitted, or the other general reason for an A if not altered is it's considered worse than poor. I agree with you that the assumption most people are going to have is that it's altered - but based on my understanding of the way SGC does things - that is not necessarily the case.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by Leon

Cut and pasted from the SGC website. Their website could be wrong but it seems to contradict what you said? This is all of the verbiage for their ALT grade.

SGC REJECTION CODES
A
Altered (ALT)

Yes, sorry if I'm being unclear. If a card is altered, it WILL get the "A" from SGC. But the A stands for Authentic, not "altered" per se, and they do not distinguish on the flip if the card is just "authentic" or "authetic altered" the way that PSA does. So their rejection codes say "A" but that is in the case something you submit is altered, and you don't check the box to "slab if authentic". If you don't, the card gets sent back to you unslabbed. If you do check that box, it gets slabbed "A" only.

The reason I make the distinction is that some people get cards slabbed only to verify authenticity, and don't care about the grade. This is probably rare, but it happens. When filling out the submission form, you can check "A Only" in another area, and the card just gets slabbed but not graded. I did this recently with a card I knew they would not give a number grade to.

I suppose it's reasonable to assume still that an SGC A is "altered", most of them anyway, but was just making the point that's not necessarily going to be true all of the time. At least they are consistent in their methodology. PSA will give some cards "Authentic" only, some cards "Authentic Altered", and in the past I've seen "Authentic - Trimmed" or perhaps most egregiously - "Athentic - Restored" in cases where the card has a pedigree, is ridiculously expensive, or has considerable hobby press speculation around it.

[commishbob]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

Yes, sorry if I'm being unclear. If a card is altered, it WILL get the "A" from SGC. But the A stands for Authentic, not "altered" per se, and they do not distinguish on the flip if the card is just "authentic" or "authetic altered" the way that PSA does. So their rejection codes say "A" but that is in the case something you submit is altered, and you don't check the box to "slab if authentic". If you don't, the card gets sent back to you unslabbed. If you do check that box, it gets slabbed "A" only.

The reason I make the distinction is that some people get cards slabbed only to verify authenticity, and don't care about the grade. This is probably rare, but it happens. When filling out the submission form, you can check "A Only" in another area, and the card just gets slabbed but not graded. I did this recently with a card I knew they would not give a number grade to.

I suppose it's reasonable to assume still that an SGC A is "altered", most of them anyway, but was just making the point that's not necessarily going to be true all of the time. At least they are consistent in their methodology. PSA will give some cards "Authentic" only, some cards "Authentic Altered", and in the past I've seen "Authentic - Trimmed" or perhaps most egregiously - "Athentic - Restored" in cases where the card has a pedigree, is ridiculously expensive, or has considerable hobby press speculation around it.

This is what I have done on the VERY rare instances where I submitted a card. I bought a raw '58 Mantle that seemed too nice for the price and I requested only the Authorized 'grade', which it got. I only wanted to know it was a legit card. When it came back it came out of the slab and into the set binder.