Do Roger Maris or Albert Belle belong in the HOF

[Touch'EmAll]

So, now 7th place only behind the steroid junkies diminishes Maris' old record?

[Peter_Spaeth]

It's a great single season record and I do think those who hit more are tainted. But it's still a single season, and we evaluate HOFers based on their career. And by that measure Maris is not even close.

[Touch'EmAll]

The "Hall of Great Careers" vs. the "Hall of Fame". I will totally give you the fact that Maris' overall career numbers could be short. But it isn't called the Hall of great careers. It is called the Hall of Fame. Many HOF members can't hold a candle to Maris in the Fame department. I feel, maybe incorrectly, that HOF has a duty to capture historical significant players/accomplishments.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by 100backstroke

The "Hall of Great Careers" vs. the "Hall of Fame". I will totally give you the fact that Maris' overall career numbers could be short. But it isn't called the Hall of great careers. It is called the Hall of Fame. Many HOF members can't hold a candle to Maris in the Fame department. I feel, maybe incorrectly, that HOF has a duty to capture historical significant players/accomplishments.

They certainly have exhibits for these things. But you would have to change the whole paradigm to elect players based on your criteria.

[Touch'EmAll]

The National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum is an American History museum. It serves as the central point for the study of the history of baseball in the United States. The Hall's motto is "Preserving History, Honoring Excellence, Connecting Generations."

This is taken directly from the Hall itself, not my opinion.

Now my opinion - what Maris did was quite historical, most definitely should be worth preserving, the season he had was indeed most excellent, and having him in would connect generations.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by 100backstroke

The National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum is an American History museum. It serves as the central point for the study of the history of baseball in the United States. The Hall's motto is "Preserving History, Honoring Excellence, Connecting Generations."

This is taken directly from the Hall itself, not my opinion.

Now my opinion - what Maris did was quite historical, most definitely should be worth preserving, the season he had was indeed most excellent, and having him in would connect generations.

I think you are confusing the Hall of Fame with the players enshrined with plaques in the plaque room. Pete Rose will never be enshrined, but his all time hit record is recognized in the museum. Barry Bonds will never be enshrined, but his HR records are recognized in the museum. Roger Maris will never be enshrined, but his HR record was recognized in the museum until it was broken. Just because a player doesn't get elected to the HOF doesn't mean he won't have a place in the museum outside the plaque room.

[Touch'EmAll]

I have never been to the Hall, don't know about they layout. If they want to keep him out of the Plaque room, I guess ok. But they should always have some sort of exhibit recognizing Maris because he fits in perfectly with the Hall's motto. He belongs in the non-plaque room area more than most. I am ok with that.

[bigfanNY]

Roger Maris was AL MVP Twice . If anybody here collects baseball cards his card was number 1 twice. The teams he played on won pennents 7 times 5 with Yankees twice with Cards. He was an all star 4 years. He had 3 World series Rings. And he played in an era with many dominant pitchers. You have to consider when a player played as well as his numbers. How many other 2 time MVP's not in the hall of fame? Maris Juan Gonzalez and Albert Pujols.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bigfanNY

Roger Maris was AL MVP Twice . If anybody here collects baseball cards his card was number 1 twice. The teams he played on won pennents 7 times 5 with Yankees twice with Cards. He was an all star 4 years. He had 3 World series Rings. And he played in an era with many dominant pitchers. You have to consider when a player played as well as his numbers. How many other 2 time MVP's not in the hall of fame? Maris Juan Gonzalez and Albert Pujols.

Murphy. Bonds. And since you named Pujols who isn't eligible, Cabrera.

How many dominant pitchers were in the AL during Maris' career, by the way? Ford doesn't count. Koufax Gibson Marichal Perry Drysdale all the other league. Bunning?

[rats60]

Originally Posted by bigfanNY

Roger Maris was AL MVP Twice . If anybody here collects baseball cards his card was number 1 twice.

He was card #1 in 1962 after setting the HR record, but when was the other one? Andy Pafko and Dusty Rhodes were also #1, so that isn't a good reason. As has been said earlier, he had 3 good seasons and that isn't enough. If it was, Lefty O'Doul would have been in long ago.

[bigfanNY]

My bad in 1961 after Also winning his first MVP award Roger was card Number 2 Dick Groat Who was NL MVP was Card Number 1. In 1960 Number 1 was Cy Young award winner Early Wynn. my point being that Topps recognized Maris 2 years in a row.
And Peter for completeness Mike Trout has also won 2 MVP awards and is not in Hall of fame. And AL pitchers won as many Cy young awards during Maris's Career as NL pitchers. But yes NL was deep in pitching talent. But during Rogers two years in NL his batting average did not drop dramatically.
The point of my OP was that Maris had a significant Major leauge career. He was not a one year wonder.
I was born in 1961 so don't remember that HR race. But I remember Sosa Mcgwire race and what it did for baseball. So if 61 and Mantle and Maris was anything ( My dad said it was bigger) like that then Maybe Maris deserves to be in the hall of fame for his contribution to the game.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bigfanNY

My bad in 1961 after Also winning his first MVP award Roger was card Number 2 Dick Groat Who was NL MVP was Card Number 1. In 1960 Number 1 was Cy Young award winner Early Wynn. my point being that Topps recognized Maris 2 years in a row.
And Peter for completeness Mike Trout has also won 2 MVP awards and is not in Hall of fame. And AL pitchers won as many Cy young awards during Maris's Career as NL pitchers. But yes NL was deep in pitching talent. But during Rogers two years in NL his batting average did not drop dramatically.
The point of my OP was that Maris had a significant Major leauge career. He was not a one year wonder.
I was born in 1961 so don't remember that HR race. But I remember Sosa Mcgwire race and what it did for baseball. So if 61 and Mantle and Maris was anything ( My dad said it was bigger) like that then Maybe Maris deserves to be in the hall of fame for his contribution to the game.

Nobody here is taking away from the 61HR season or his other good years, you don't need to justify those.

[drcy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Nobody here is taking away from the 61HR season or his other good years, you don't need to justify those.

Maris doesn't belong in the Hall as a member. End of story. And neither does Sosa or McGwire.

[Marckus99]

Belle over boring Maris.
All day, every day.

[bigfanNY]

Well the Hall of Fame justifies Tommy McCarthy due to his significant contributions to the game. So it is a real a contributing factor when consideration for the Baseball Hall of Fame.

[SteveMitchell]

This argument in favor of Albert Belle being of Hall of Fame caliber is made with the understanding that Albert was telling the truth when he said, in answer to whether or not he used steroids: “I never did,” said Belle. “I didn’t need to. All you have to do is check the trainers’ weight charts. Every year I’d come to camp weighing 225 to 230 and end the season at about 215 to 220.”

The Cleveland franchise has been in the American League for well over a century. According to Baseball-Reference.com's Cleveland Indians Top 10 Career Batting Leaders, there are 39 positive categories (actually there are 43 but for this purpose, strikeouts, outs made, double plays grounded into, caught stealing have been eliminated). My argument is that after more than a century of play, if you find your name multiple times in the Top 10 of a positive category, you probably belong in the Hall of Fame. Of the 39 positive categories, Albert Bell (despite playing only the equivalent of 6 full seasons in Cleveland) made the Top Ten 16 times.

If you wish to check out this out, for more details see: https://www.baseball-reference.com/t...ders_bat.shtml

Finally, a favorable word for a man I was privileged to know for nearly a decade - Earl Averill, another Cleveland great. Of these 39 categories, Earl Averill placed in the Top Ten 29 times and was the absolute leader 9 of those times. Behind Averill's 9 Number One rankings follow: Tris Speaker (7), Jim Thome (6), Larry Lajoie (4), Joe Jackson (3), Kenny Lofton (2), Manny Ramierz (2) and 7 others including 3 Hall of Famers (tied one apiece).

[Huysmans]

Originally Posted by Marckus99

Belle over boring Maris.
All day, every day.

Surpassing Babe Ruth's coveted home run record while the captivated baseball world held it's breath... you can't get any more boring than that.
While Belle was consistent throughout his career... what was exciting about it? When he was caught cheating with a corked bat in 1994?

[skil55voy]

I was 5 years old growing up in Detroit when Roger broke Babe's record. None of the adults around me wanted Roger to break the record. I can remember laying in front of our Emerson black and white TV and seeing the scroll across the bottom of the screen announcing Roger's 56th homer, his 57th 58th etc.. as he hit them. Even though most people were against him, he did it anyway. He became a hero to me because he did it anyway. I don't think anybody was ever in a zone like he was that year. I read an article where Norm Cash said that his 1961 season was like no other. He said that everything he hit just seemed to drop in. Don't care about the Hall of Fame. Roger had one of the great years in baseball, surpassing a bigger than life legend. Just a working guy who swung the bat like nothing anybody had ever seen. 159 hits - 61 were home runs. Incredible.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by skil55voy

I was 5 years old growing up in Detroit when Roger broke Babe's record. None of the adults around me wanted Roger to break the record. I can remember laying in front of our Emerson black and white TV and seeing the scroll across the bottom of the screen announcing Roger's 56th homer, his 57th 58th etc.. as he hit them. Even though most people were against him, he did it anyway. He became a hero to me because he did it anyway. I don't think anybody was ever in a zone like he was that year. I read an article where Norm Cash said that his 1961 season was like no other. He said that everything he hit just seemed to drop in. Don't care about the Hall of Fame. Roger had one of the great years in baseball, surpassing a bigger than life legend. Just a working guy who swung the bat like nothing anybody had ever seen. 159 hits - 61 were home runs. Incredible.

You don't think Babe Ruth was in a zone when he hit a mere 60 (with a much higher batting average)? Or Hornsby when he hit .424 or whatever it was? Yes it was a great achievement, but let's not be too hyperbolic about it.

[packs]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

You don't think Babe Ruth was in a zone when he hit a mere 60 (with a much higher batting average)? Or Hornsby when he hit .424 or whatever it was? Yes it was a great achievement, but let's not be too hyperbolic about it.

I think the difference is nobody was upset when Ruth hit 60. The public probably loved it. Almost no one wanted Maris to hit 61. His achievement was in the face of ridiculous odds and against the wishes of a public who was mostly against him. The closer Maris got to the record the worse the abuse was. I highly doubt Ruth got too many death threats on his way to 60.

If you want to put the public's feeling toward Maris into perspective, only 23,000 people showed up to see if he would break the record and the commissioner didn't even attend.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

I think the difference is nobody was upset when Ruth hit 60. The public probably loved it. Almost no one wanted Maris to hit 61. His achievement was in the face of ridiculous odds and against the wishes of a public who was mostly against him. The closer Maris got to the record the worse the abuse was. I highly doubt Ruth got too many death threats on his way to 60.

If you want to put the public's feeling toward Maris into perspective, only 23,000 people showed up to see if he would break the record and the commissioner didn't even attend.

OK, but he's playing baseball, not fighting in a battle with live rounds. Let's not overdramatize it?

[packs]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

OK, but he's playing baseball, not fighting in a battle with live rounds. Let's not overdramatize it?

I can only speak for myself, but if I'm trying to accomplish something and strangers are telling me they'll kill me or my family, it might make it harder for me to accomplish what I'm doing.

[brian1961]

Upon the headstone of Roger Eugene Maris are three words:

AGAINST ALL ODDS

There were more than a few strong reasons why that phrase was put on his tombstone. With the lifetime / career qualifications that are in place, Roger will never be in the MLB Hall of Fame, but as I wrote before, his extremely hard-earned and deserved single-season major league home run record needs to be restored once and for all. It's frickin' out of line to assert Roger Maris's record is tainted. Taint so! Barry Bonds's mark has been questioned by many since the year he supposedly hit them, and nobody can seem to get to him to discover the truth behind his numbers.

Roger Maris is from my era, and I'm not ashamed to say I am biased towards him, and to the many others who legitimately achieved slugging fame.

We have no say anyway, so let's call it a day, and go back to collecting, and enjoying our heroes. --- Brian Powell

[Peter_Spaeth]

[QUOTE=brian1961;1863671]Upon the headstone of Roger Eugene Maris are three words:

AGAINST ALL ODDS

There were more than a few strong reasons why that phrase was put on his tombstone. With the lifetime / career qualifications that are in place, Roger will never be in the MLB Hall of Fame, but as I wrote before, his extremely hard-earned and deserved single-season major league home run record needs to be restored once and for all. It's frickin' out of line to assert Roger Maris's record is tainted. Taint so! Barry Bonds's mark has been questioned by many since the year he supposedly hit them, and nobody can seem to get to him to discover the truth behind his numbers.

Roger Maris is from my era, and I'm not ashamed to say I am biased towards him, and to the many others who legitimately achieved slugging fame.

We have no say anyway, so let's call it a day, and go back to collecting, and enjoying our heroes. --- Brian Powell[/QUOTE

frickin' out of line -- pun intended?

[frankbmd]

[QUOTE=Peter_Spaeth;1863674]

Originally Posted by brian1961

Upon the headstone of Roger Eugene Maris are three words:

AGAINST ALL ODDS

There were more than a few strong reasons why that phrase was put on his tombstone. With the lifetime / career qualifications that are in place, Roger will never be in the MLB Hall of Fame, but as I wrote before, his extremely hard-earned and deserved single-season major league home run record needs to be restored once and for all. It's frickin' out of line to assert Roger Maris's record is tainted. Taint so! Barry Bonds's mark has been questioned by many since the year he supposedly hit them, and nobody can seem to get to him to discover the truth behind his numbers.

Roger Maris is from my era, and I'm not ashamed to say I am biased towards him, and to the many others who legitimately achieved slugging fame.

We have no say anyway, so let's call it a day, and go back to collecting, and enjoying our heroes. --- Brian Powell[/QUOTE

frickin' out of line -- pun intended?

couldn't afford to stop laughing.

[brian1961]

"frickin' out of line"

Pun intended?

But of course, my friends! ---Brian Powell