Kevin Saucier Has Spoken

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Posted By: Kevin Saucier

if this is an underprint, how can anyone possibly explain how it happened? if we are to assume that kevin is right

______________________________________

It is and I am.

Seems that this will need to be taken a step further. If this is not convincing enough, then I don't know what else to say or do.

I decided to try and duplicate what a printed image would look like under a Sweet Cap print. I removed the ultra-thin layer from the back of a T206 card (please don't ask how, I don't want to hurt anyone).

Keeping in mind this is still much thicker than what is depicted on the card in question, I placed it over a couple blue printed backgrounds and removed the corner to imitate paper loss. As you can see the results are all but unquestionable (impressive, I know ).





Kevin Saucier

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www.AlteredCards.com - in-depth education on advanced card doctoring techniques & detection with detailed examples

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Posted By: david

kevin
I don’t get how placing the thin layer of the back of a card over a printed image proves anything other then you ruined a t206. And I assume the printed image was the exact same ink, applied to t206 stock and used the application method as the united cigars stamp, correct? You know the types of controls that make experiments valid. The believers in this card still have not provided a rational explanation as to how the stamp appears OVER the back damage. Am I really suppose to believe that a rouge printer/paper maker randomly stamped the back of a thin layer of paper which was then used to make the paper stock of a card which then just then happens to be on the fully printed back of a t206, stamp fully shown. This is not a printer’s scrap or a proof, for such random acts to be plausible. There are no proof lines and the card is not hand cut. There are too many 'just' statements for this to be a plausible scenario.

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Posted By: Joann

Well this is a disappointment - getting up in the morning to find that no new 0's have been added to the BIN price. Boooooring. Yawn.

J

(I still vote overprint, without knowing the mechanism for no black-over-red.)

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Posted By: barrysloate

Deleted as I decided my post was not appropriate.

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Posted By: Steve

The fact that the seller is asking 150K is not a reflection of what he feels the piece is worth; he is just showing his anger and contempt to the board for questioning his integrity.



Bingo.


Steve

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Posted By: Steve

He needs to raise his shipping price.


Steve

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

After reading through as much of this as I could...

1. I like David's $15 assessment, I'd not pay that much for it either.

2. I would pay $15 to not have to watch grown men encouraging roosters to fight.

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Posted By: Marty Ogelvie

A simple case of which came first... 'chicken or the egg'

If the value of this card is not substantially increased by either, then does it really matter which came first?   Of course if its just a matter of PROVING that this seller is a FRAUD, then by all means, press on.. 

It seems most everyone has a fairly high opinion of Kevin and Kevin says its legit.. can't that be enough??  It is for me..

 

martyOgelvie

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

I understand there's bad blood with the seller, but I don't think the seller should have any bearing on people's judgement on this card. If anything, the seller has some pretty exceptional knowledge of the hobby.

I'm hung on the card itself. It sure is interesting, and Kevin's photos are much more enlightening than the original scans. It sure does appear that the red print is above the black print.

That said, Frank's assertion is also a good one, and Frank's got some pretty outstanding knowledge as well - more than most of us, I'd say.

As Kevin is the only one of us who's actually held the card in his hand, he's probably got more insight than the rest of us.

Then again, Occam's Razor would point to the United Cigars logo having been applied after the fact. It's the most simple and logical conclusion to draw. I still haven't even seen another card - non-sports or otherwise - containing that logo in that size in that color. So it makes absolutely no sense that it would somehow have appeared on a printer's scrap, nor does it make any sense that the printing technique of T206s would have included applying layers to the card paper - especially since we've seen no evidence of that kind of printing technique on other T206s.

Although we've all seen multiple backs printed on the same T206, it is VERY rare to see printing on the back that doesn't belong on a T206 (i.e. a back that's not akin to the ads typically seen on T206s). We have, however, seen many different types of stamps on the back of a T206 card - whether it be Old Puts, or personalized stamps, or whatever.

And yet it's hard not to trust your own eyes.

Either way, I find it to be an incredibly interesting card. Not $150,000 interesting, or $10,000 interesting, or even $1,500 interesting, but interesting nonetheless.

-Al

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Posted By: Red

When the top surface was peeled off the 1952 Bowman and T206 cards above did the lower layers show any ink from bleed through? I doubt it because ink applied in a printing process is going to behave and look different than ink applied from a watery stamp that's allowed to soak in and stain the card. The ink from the stamp isn't much different than if you soaked the card in grape juice. You'll have a purple T206 with the red printed ink looking like it's floating on the surface.

Somebody on here has to have some T206's that have names or something stamped on the back. All you have to do is look at the cards at an angle under magnification and you'll see that the original T206 printing looks like it's sitting on top of whatever stamp was there, just like the photo above shows. The stamps were made with a thin water based ink that soaks into the card as opposed to the original T206 printing that's sitting on top of the card. The ink used in professional printing would sit on top of the card surface and not soak in. Even if way too much printing ink was used and it somehow seeped down to the lower layers you're not going to have a sharper reproduction of what the original stamp looked like in the lower layers after you ripped off a few layers of paper.

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Posted By: Shawn Chambers

I am still not swayed by Kevin's photos. I have many paper items at home (CD inserts come to mind) where red ink has a more 3-D effect than other colors (probably one of the reasons it is used in 3-D glasses!

Seriously, I have several red printed items where the red ink seems to "hover" over the surface. I think it is merely an optical illusion. When I started changing the contrast and saturation levels on his photos, it diminished this effect.

I cannot buy into bleeding ink penetrating that deeply and clearly.

Reading this thread again, still beats workin' !

The other Shawn

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Posted By: DD

Let's say for a moment that the other stamp was applied first. And..... An interesting anamoly, for which nothing plausible can be concluded.

It's clear that the one Leon has was part of a sheet used to test the printing press. Multiple times at that, but not more than once for each brand; would probably interfere with proper alignment, or something like that. A unique example of the actual T206 card manufacturing process at work, complete with a wet sheet transfer of Cy Young. Hence the hotly contested bidding.

Imagine you had a 1927 Yankees team signed ball, and Charlie Gehringer signed it. He was around back then, but it doesn't mean his signature belonged on it. Could be a nice story behind it, or Charlie happened to pick up the ball and sign it, put it back in the box before you left for the World Series to get the rest of the ball signed.

Point being, before or after doesn't matter. Unless F. Scott Fitzgerald or Howe McCormick owned this card, that back stamp is nothing but a curiousity, not something that will command a premium, or be collected for the stamp, and certanly not an addition to every known type set list it would belong on if it were a legitimate T206 back.

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Posted By: Joe D.

I have yet to see a compelling argument -- either words or photos -- for this to be considered an underprint (sorry Kevin). None.


Just as an update... I have offered to view the card first-hand and give my opinion (as a printing professional).

It seems this will happen (I will be viewing the card) - - but it will not be for months.

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Posted By: Anonymous

look at the cards at an angle under magnification and you'll see that the original T206 printing looks like it's sitting on top of whatever stamp was there, just like the photo above shows. The stamps were made with a thin water based ink that soaks into the card as opposed to the original T206 printing that's sitting on top of the card.
_______________________________________________

I completely agree and thought of that initially. So far I haven't seen a stamped card that has such an even blend, they tend to be splotchy. Also the water based ink used on stamps seem to weaken and disrupt the fibers, making portions easy to rub off. They just don't have that clear look as seen in the Cigar Logo card side w/o the paper loss.

Yes...if anything it is still interesting but in the end it just an opinion.






Kevin

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www.AlteredCards.com - in-depth education on advanced card doctoring techniques & detection with detailed examples

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Posted By: robert a

Here's my opinion without commenting on what the card should be worth or sold for and without commenting on whether or not it's a stamp/underprint/overprint:

The interesting aspect about the "united cigars" logo appearing on the card is that is might've been placed there close to the time of T206 production. The fact that United Cigars issued period non-sports cards is pretty cool as well. I don't know if it's significant in any way for us card geeks, but kind of neat.

We T206 collectors are use to seeing a plethora of different stamps on the back of our cards, but I don't recall any that actually tie into a different card issue.

Just trying to get the card aspect of the conversation flowing.

Rob

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Posted By: Dave F

"It seems this will happen (I will be viewing the card) - - but it will not be for months."



For months Joe? Just checking to see if you care to elaborate.

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Posted By: Joe D.

Dave,

While I do not mind looking at a card and offering an opinion at absolutely no charge -
Since the collector values the card at $150K -
and I am not insured to handle collectibles -
I do not want to shoulder any risk throughout the process. How could I? and Why would I?

So instead of shipping the card back and forth - there is going to be an in-person meet / greet / view / opinion.
It seems that the first time available for this to happen is months away.

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Posted By: Jerry Hrechka

I don't have the knowledge to add anything to this thread, but this is exactly why I lurk here and read the threads. Always something new to learn.

Informative arguments on both sides.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Tim asked above what would it take for me to believe this is an "underprint." I suppose Joe D's opinion would do it for me. And some rational explanation as to how a single print would have been perfectly placed on a large, blank sheet of cardboard prior to it being run through a press.

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Posted By: Jim VB

<<It seems that the first time available for this to happen is months away.>>

Use that time wisely to train your own roosters, Joe.

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Posted By: Shawn

There is a ton of stuff on the web with the "United Cigar" logo PRINTED on it. I can find nothing with a stamp or reference to a stamp etc. Only printed material. I think the likelihood that the logo was printed on that paper is greater than stamped.

Also, If someone were to try and fake something like this, what are the odds of someone choosing "United Cigar"? I would venture to say no one here on the board or anywhere else would think of this logo and say "yes, that is what I will use to make a fake".


Just a thought...

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Posted By: davidcycleback

I've learned with dealing with memorabilia that common sense is a an essential guide, but there sometimes will be something that surprises you-- typically involving new information. For example, the first time I saw a T206 ghost print, it was such a strange thing and I couldn't exactly explain that I wondered about it's authenticity. I also believe they are legitimate and think I know how they appeared. Another thing is if there's a 99 percent chance a happened and 1 percent chance b happened, don't pretend a and b are equal possibilities (something some people do in arguments). Any kid can come up with an "alternative theory" for why the cookies are missing from the cookie jar when he was the only one at home, but that doesn't mean mom should or will buy it.

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Posted By: Shawn

Perhaps someone can contact this seller and buy this "United Cigar" card, then run a test on it? No way to really compare I guess, but would be interesting...


http://cgi.ebay.ca/UNITED-CIGARS-LOOK-FOR-THE-UNITED-SHIELD-PLAYING-CARD_W0QQitemZ360071045505QQihZ023QQcategoryZ986QQ cmdZViewItem

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Posted By: Dave F

Shawn-

What are the odds someone would pick United Cigar to use as a designed fake? Well, as good as anything else.

There have been millions of T206's that have been through the hobby. Not one other T206 has ever been documented to have such a print along with it. I know per our phone conversation earlier you said there is just a good of a chance this is a legit print and that it could very well be the first one found...to that I say bull-crapo.

T206's are the most common of any pre-war card out there. I just really believe by 2008 there would have been something else like this found before now. If this was a T208 we were talking about, then of course there is room for finding new evidence to that series...I just don't believe that same factor goes into play with T206's at this point, not to this magnitude.

Shawn, I also don't buy your theory on the United Cigar print being able to leak perfectly through. I don't buy it was a "different printing process" than what the Sweet Caporal process would have been. Show me one scan of another card where there is paperloss but the print is still there beneath the top layer. This is cardboard, not paper.

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Posted By: Shawn

David,

I am not claiming that it could not be a fake, but the odds are not "as good as anything else" as you said above. That would imply that all odds are even?

There have been millions of T206s that have been through the hobby, yes but new things are constantly being discovered and for you to insinuate something new cannot not be found is kind of silly. As to you quoting me on the phone, I never said there is a good chance of anything... I said simply there is a chance. Nor would I say it may be the first one found? It may not be the first one found, It may not even be real!

David, I never claimed that the United Cigar logo leaked perfectly through? I said it is possible for ink to leak through paper or cardboard etc... Without the paper that was removed from the back of the card how can one claim that it has leaked perfectly through as you think has happened? But for you to claim that ink cannot leak through a T206 or any other card is simply not true. I have seen printed material that ink has soaked through and still can be read or seen with little change or unnoticeable change.

I could not agree more with what David Cycleback said above.

"I've learned with dealing with memorabilia that common sense is a an essential guide, but there sometimes will be something that surprises you-- typically involving new information."

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Posted By: Dave F

"I have seen printed material that ink has soaked through and still can be read or seen with little change or unnoticeable change."


ok...i'll ask again. show me a scan of another t206 that has paperloss on the back but yet the print is still there.

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Posted By: Greg Theberge

Maybe it's me, but logic would suggest here that if someone really cared about finding out the truth, all they would have to do is simply lift up (you don't even have to remove it, it already looks like it can be lifted up)a small area of the backing at the edge of where the paper loss is and see if there is a continuation of the black print at this deeper level.

This amazing ink that only bleeds vertically and not horizontally sounds about as legitimate as the infamous "magic bullet."

And, by the way, I don't know the ebay seller from a hole in the wall, but his narrative is exceptionally childish, but that's just one man's opinion.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Part of the problem with the card is, in fact, Elkins. If it were a different guy selling it there wouldn't be such disbelief. (As others have pointed out, however, I don't think it really makes a difference value-wise whether it's an "under" print or an overprint; it's just not worth more than a few bucks) It is just too difficult to believe that a guy whose entire essence is so morally repugnant is capable of telling the truth about any matter. And I'm not talking about his collecting government handouts instead of working or living in a trailer; compared to evertyhing else about him those are his good points.

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Posted By: ali_lapoint

hey jeff, a lot of families and people live in trailers because they have no other option. where you live or your economic status is not always an indicator of your character so maybe you should cool it a little bit.

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Posted By: David Smith

In the pictures that poster only_child has provided, tell me the "t" in "the" doesn't look like it is hovering over the "W"?

For that matter, look at the "et" in "cigarette". Doesn't it look like, from the side angle view, they are hovering over the "O" in "NO"?

Or the scrolled "f" looks like it is hovering over the purple ink?

If you ALSO think that those letters are hovering over the stamped letters, then only_child has $300,000 dollars worth of cards which, I think, he/she/they should list on eBay IMMEDIATELY!!!!

David

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Ali, I agree -- I specifically mentioned that Elkins' living in a trailer was one of his relatively good points. However, his proud history of animal abuse is more indicative of his character.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

I would imagine many trailers are more luxurious and spacious than many Manhattan condos. That the Manhattanite paid 100x more for his quarters doesn't necessarily make him appear smarter. There are trailer parks, which I assume is where you rent space. However, a fair number of rural trailer owners own the land and aren't poor. They may not be rich, but they're not poor.

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Posted By: Joe D.

greg.... great post.
"This amazing ink that only bleeds vertically and not horizontally sounds about as legitimate as the infamous "magic bullet."

yes... the lack of horizontal bleeding is incredible.
even more amazing is that it bleeds through so clearly from the back of the card to the innards.... but magically it cannot be found bleeding through to the front of the card.
this super-powerful bleed-through ink must have also have had a conscience and decided the picture of schlei was too nice to ruin - so it stopped its own vertical bleed momentum from going any further within the card - so as not to harm the front. (edit: realizing we are assuming this super powerful ink was the first to touch the paper.... not only did it have a conscience but it also had ESP.)

Kevin does mention this and has somewhat of an explanation....
"The cigar print logo does not show (even faintly) on the front of the card. My thought is that the front picture was applied after the print had dried."
I have to ask Kevin.... other than some super cool disappearing ink - when has he ever seen blue ink dry colorless?
The lack of color on the front does not mean the blue ink dried and is gone when they printed the front.... I can tell you that blue ink dries blue. And no matter how long you let it dry you will see it as.... blue.

I am not trying to pick on you Kevin... because I do enjoy your posts immensely. But this portion of your explanation leaves a lot to be desired.


jeff.... I agree... I don't think it matters one way or the other (value-wise) if this is an underprint or an overprint. At least it doesn't for me.

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Posted By: Shawn

Perhaps I am not being clear... How can someone know if the ink has spread, without comparing it to the original logo? The top layer above the ink is gone! I think it is interesting how some folks expect to see some mass ink spread. It could be that the ink has spread but such that it is to hard to tell with the eye. The ink did not have to spread horizontally at some huge bulging quantity. Nor does the theory that ink would supposedly soak through something to infinity. It has to stop at some point. The fact that it did not soak through all the way to the front does not mean that it is a stamp. Ink is not some insane super acid that eats through every thing it touches.

Just my thoughts

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Posted By: dan mckee

it is an underprint, what are the odds that when the sweet cap paperloss happened on the left of the shield that it didn't take any of the underneath printed shield with it? No way underprint, stamped over in my professional opinion. Dan Mckee

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Posted By: Joe D.

"Nor does the theory that ink would supposedly soak through something to infinity. It has to stop at some point. The fact that it did not soak through all the way to the front does not mean that it is a stamp. Ink is not some insane super acid that eats through every thing it touches."

Sean... you are correct... ink is not some insane super acid that eats through everything it touches.
And... it shouldn't soak through to infinity.... this is also 100% correct.

The puzzling part is the dramatic soak through and clarity of ink on the inside (under the paperloss).... coupled with the amazing halt of soak through when it comes to the front.


To be clear... the whole soak through theory is from the underprint camp. It is so far the only explanation for the image still being there in the paperloss area if this is an underprint.


Another explanation would be.... a stamp was applied, like countless other stamps we have seen, after the printing and after the paperloss.

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Posted By: David Smith

Shawn,

What is amazing to me is that on the surface where there is no paper loss, the black ink is faint and has run together (you can barely make out the "e" and "d" in "UNITED") while where the paper loss is, the ink is darker and has NOT run together.

To me, this suggests that the logo was lightly stamped on the paper. Because not much pressure was applied, the ink ran and pooled on the slick surface while it adhered much better to the rough surface and DID NOT run or pool. Thereby, the darker and cleaner look to the ink on the left and the lighter and blotchier look to the right.

David

PS. For those who think this truly IS a rare and valuable underprint, why don't you just take a risk, BUY the card and find out for yourself if it IS real AND valuable. Then, when you prove it IS real and sell it for T206 Honus Wagner money, you can come back to these boards and GLOAT.

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Posted By: ROBERT ADAMS JR

If anyone wants a half-ass history of this card , I won on Ebay about 10 months ago thinking it was a stamp for $12 and turned it around as an underprint for $38 . If someone gets $150,000 for it I,ll S**T ! In fact , I put it up on a Recent Pickup thread at that time as an underprint and no one batted an eye .

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

1st, I still wouldn't pay $15 for it.


But if it is an underprint... if someone did stamp the back of a big blank uncut sheet of cards with T206 images on the front, then the sheet was printed on the back and this card cut from it, WHAT is the big deal with that?? It seems to me a messed up card. Not a rarity, but rather a mistake.


And if it isn't an underprint, no big deal there, either. I think if Robert won it for $12 (which is in line with my estimation of the card, good buy, Robert!!) and he then sold it for $38 (fantastic sale, Robert!!!), then that is as big a deal as it is.


If what was suggested here was that T206s were issued by United Cigars and that would be a new T206 brand, then THAT would be a big deal...

If you put a United Cigars stamp on a pig, it's still a pig. Just to quote some Obama, McCain, and Cheney logic, since those guys like (or used to like) that saying.

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Posted By: ROBERT ADAMS JR

Thanks Frank . I was kinda expecting $60-80 but was not too disappointed . I thought it was an interesting card under or over print but not worth more then $100 on a SUPER bidding day .

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Posted By: Scott B.

I couldn't believe this thread and go this far... it just doesn't make sense the stamp was an underprint.

Anyways, IMO, it was bad to have Kevin Saucier involved in this matter. Before this card shows up (at least to me) Kevin was known to be a expert on detecting alterations and paper expert on this board. But now this United Logo card is taking his reputation and creditability away.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

I think that's drastic. I don't believe making a single mistake undermines someone's reputation, as there isn't anyone who hasn't made a mistake. Even Sherlock Holmes made a mistake in deduction once or twice.

It is kind of funny that there's such a brewhaha over a silly little stamp and whether its under or over the line. Though an understamp would mean it would have to be vintage, so the issue is more than just technicality. Beyond knowing the normal/general order of colors or having proofs, determining the chronological order of the inks on an undamaged print is very hard, and even top experts may disagree on the exact order. Obviously, a key tidbit with this print is there is a gouge in the stock.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

So it's a $12-$36 card that a lowlife put on ebay for $1500 hoping to make the score of his lifetime and got not a single offer. What next?

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Posted By: David Goff

Jeff

Maybe he was hoping to get alot of money for the card and then use that money to bet on some horses.

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Posted By: Jerry Hrechka

Or roosters.

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Posted By: leon

I wonder if the underfoot of a rooster might resemble this stamp. Maybe a chicken got out and stepped on the card? I think this is a low life scumbag trying to defraud the public. It is probably indicative of an animal torturer's nature to also try to be a scammer. Maybe he is trying to subsidize his welfare subsidies? Maybe he should get a job like the rest of America and quit abusing animals, the system......I guess some scumbags just don't want to work and want a free handout....Scott Elkins is a low life scumbag....but you didn't hear it here first...


edited a few typos

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Posted By: Steve

Well, it's rec'd an offer.

Unless it's a shill or prank, which I highly doubt (from digging up this high $ buyers credible history). He's made many sensible vintage, non-sport purchases over the years on the Bay.

Wow, this hobby sure is fickle. Kevin does some amazing research for the benefit of the hobby. But, by being aloof in refusing to address specific flaws with this card (mine and others), I must remain highly skeptical. If Kevin prooves to be correct, as tough as that may be, I'd be the first to acknowledge my accusatory tone.

Incidentally, How Scott's listing didn't shoot himself in the foot, in regards to frightening away offers eludes me. Steve F

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Posted By: Shawn

I actually like this ad... I like the "no look cigar grab" by the guy in the middle.



WALTER,

I believe Sweet Caporal produced some T59 Flags of all nations and United Cigar produced the T38s, have you seen T59s with United Cigar backs or the reverse?

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Posted By: Anonymous

Again, I hate to beat a dead horse, but am I the only one that sees a similarity between the United logo and Croft logo? Seems this would have some sort of link between tobacco and candy issues.

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Posted By: Steve

yes I noticed the resemblence as did a few others.

The 'logo' is basically one that is normally used with the American flag.

It prolly was used by more then just these 2 companies as well.


Steve