Lelands/Clemente family problems

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

While I find the sale of the plane parts distasteful, my major problem with it is that it is insensitive to the Clemente family. The Clemente family has asked that the items be removed and Leland's apparently has decided not to. That is the reason I choose not to do business with Leland's.
If you find that childish that's your opinion. I think it's a mature response.

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Posted By: barrysloate

John,
Whatever your personal feeling is about selling controversial material, isn't it pretty clear after 103 posts that the sale of the Clemente plane is not being well accepted by very large percentage of the collecting hobby and maybe we should just agree that it's time for Leland's to pull the plug?

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Posted By: Dan Koteles

the first and foremost reason not to purchase as I and many have mention is for the sake of the family and thier wishes....that SHOULD BE ENOUGH !!!!!!

the second reason(on a limb)is that you have to be STUPID to collect plane chunks cause your life is so stinkin boring and you have nothing else better to do. I bet the bidders tea parties suck too!!!

better things in life.......

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Posted By: Dan Koteles

I was not referring to you in anyway -now that you have responded to me, say I was to come over to your house , you have a plane chunk sitting in the corner of your living room ,I ask "wtf" is that ???...you say that it is a piece of the plane that Clemente crashed in...well, my reply would be "ARE YOU NUTS"???


I DO NOT THINK THAT THIS IS A COLLECTOR PIECE WHATSOEVER!

I'll take whatever trashing you want to give ,it is not like my collection will change over this - I will still be a pre war baseball guy ,period !

a selfish purchase nonetheless !

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Posted By: leon

Nice car you have/want but I agree with Dan K. on this one. You can't remain anonymous in this thread. Please email me privately and let's have a chat....thanks much

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Posted By: John

To Barry and Others;

I want to make one thing clear before you think I’m endorsing any auctions or material offered in those auctions. I have only pointed out or asked some of the posters who are so against this auction item where they draw the line.

1.)Several people said anyone who makes a profit from items that involve death or destruction are wrong, they went on to say that they would boycott those people. That’s a bold statement. I only pointed out or asked what was different from many other non-baseball related objects that other major auction houses sell. Many of these items fall into the same category and that if they feel that strongly they may be boycotting more than just Leland’s.

2.)Many people said profiting from someone else’s misfortune is wrong and not right. Yet many people replied that they would have no problem getting a box of cards off of someone at half or less of there value, even if they had any kind of knowledge that the seller was selling the items due to misfortune. So turning a buck off that type of misfortune is ok?

3.)My only other point was that just because someone sells something doesn’t mean they endorse in any way the idea or circumstances behind the item. I used the War collectibles as an example. Just because Sotheby’s or another major auction house sells a Nazi uniform doesn’t make them a bunch of goose-stepping neo nazi’s. The same as you selling an historical document you found written by lets say Cap Anson detailing his hatred for blacks, you selling that doesn’t mean you support those beliefs.

Once again I’m not supporting Leland’s or lobbying on their behalf, I could careless if Leland’s goes out of business I have no vested personal interest. There are a lot of great people on the board here Barry you included but I think the 100 or so posts here are hardly a representation of the collecting hobby, I also don’t feel the media coverage is either. If the majority of the collecting hobby had no interest or was outraged by this sort of material we wouldn’t be having this conversation because Leland’s & other auction houses would have no market for this material.

Barry I hope you don’t think less of me, but I’m very passionate about these kind of things. People have lots of different ways to rationalize things. I have a hang up about hypocrisy, and I have strong feeling that for every person who said it was wrong to sell ghoulish goods, or to profit from misfortune. These same people would sell Al Capone’s Tommy gun if they had it, or by a T206 Wagner off an old lady if she said she needed a $100 bucks. Just a gut feeling.

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Posted By: John

Hey Dan;

How do you know about Lincoln WERE you alive, how about Julius Cesar you 2 guys bowling buddies. We know or have history from personal accounts and stories handed down. That’s why its called history, if you have to personally witness things for them to be true, our culture would go back as far as you learning to walk.

Remembering and reflecting on history isn’t approving of it, ignoring history because it bothers you is a bad thing History has taught us that many times.

Corrected Grammatical Error for Daniel “Grammar Cop” Williams who if a misplaced word bothers him so much is going to be very busy here reviewing the posts from our other members, buy your tickets to better educations now folks!

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Posted By: Daniel William "I am not anonymous" Elsa

"How do you know about Lincoln where you alive, how about Julius Cesar you 2 guys bowling buddies. We know or have history from personal accounts and stories handed down. That’s why its called history, if you have to personally witness things for them to be true, our culture would go back as far as you learning to walk."

Did you think of that on your own? That is funny. Maybe you missed all that I was saying, yet, I am not in the inner circle of things, so I can understand how it could be confused.

Wonka, buy a ticket to reality my friend and go back to school... "how do you know about Lincoln WHERE you alive..." WHERE, do you mean, where Lincoln was alive? What are you trying to say? Do you mean, were alive? That is what I thought.

My point about Anson and Cobb are obvious, it happened a long time ago and why continue to bring it up, whether or not they were racist does not really matter in today's World WHERE folks have changed an aweful lot and WHERE things are much different than they WHERE 100 years ago when I was learning to walk WHERE I went to places that I WHERE to go.

Regards.

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Posted By: John

Daniel;

I find it very humorous that the only educated response you have to my reply on why you feel the need to ignore history and make things up was to find a typo I made in my many responses to you.

The truth is I have quite an extensive education that of which I don’t need to spend my time proving to you. You started this by making 2 statements. The first was that there was no historical evidence proving that Anson was racist, which is false. Second that unless I personally witnessed the events it can’t be proven and should not be believed or discussed.

That has to be the stupidest thing I have heard come from a person’s mouth. Do you have any idea how ignorant that sounds? I guess we wouldn’t be able to prove anything to you since you didn’t witness it, so our history would go as far back as your existence huh? What a wonderfully rich culture that would be.

Well I’m on my way to buy that ticket. While you’re here correcting the network 54 grammatical mistakes, should I pick you up any historical volumes to read over? I’m reading wonderful account about the American civil war (fictional I’m sure) Since nobody real is alive that saw it happen I’m with you I’m sure it never happened.

Oh and once again I never mentioned Cobb you did, feel free to read the posts again so if your upset that I’m dragging Anson’s name thru the mud, its you who keeps mentioning Cobb.

I’m done, with you. You want the real reason I had typo, its easy talking to people like yourself lowers my I.Q. And arguing or having an intelligent discussion with people like you. Well it’s like running in the Special Olympics even if I win I’m still retarded for doing it in the first place.

Oh and one more thing if you would like to continue this mind numbing conversation, lets do so offline. Use my email above, nice of you to add yours finally.

P.S. Before my last line offends anyone, I have nothing against the handicapped so don’t get offended. I know the PC watch is on patrol.

Leon my apologies for getting personal with this guy but he threw the glove down.



“You’re semi friendly Baseball Card Curmudgeon”

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Posted By: leon

I have absolutely no issue with some fighting on the board. I would ask that you put your last name on your posts though. As long as bickering remains fairly civil it spices things up a little. In these types of threads I am going to ask everyone, in the future, to put their first and last names...again, unless you are well known by your handle. Quite honestly I can't keep track of the 830 unique IP addresses we get on average every day. This board is growing. The last few days there have been almost 14,000 page views each day.......I also don't mind people bashing me. Kind of like when I read one of my car mag's I take and the editors put in some editorials criticising the magazine. I can tell you I will not delete criticisms unless they are anonymous. kindest regards....moderator dude (and don't worry folks this board will stay as it's the best vintage baseball card site on the net)

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Posted By: Dan Elsass

First of all, there are countless flaws with your way of thinking regarding my posts. I continue to stand by the fact that the Clemente items are not something that should have any value placed on them at all and most likely should not have ever been offered for sale. That being said, there are collectors of everything out there (as you showed earlier with the pics of all of the Hitler stuff, etc), so I am not sure where you have heartache with that.

Regarding history and what is and is not truth about our history, well, that has been a long time debated issue. In that, history has a way of being written in a manner that may or may not convey the real story. I never stated that Anson was not possibly racist, I was simply making a request for solid proof that he was. It seems to be one of those things that will obviuously never get proven to me, even if it is brought to light with a non-fiction book or document that clearly reports that he was, because it was not written in his true opinion. I suppose that if he had maybe kept a journal of some sort and wrote in it regarding his hatred... etc, then it would make it pretty clear as to whether or not he was. As I wrote previously, hatred via race relations has been a horrible thing for a long time and that is very well documented, so please don't take issue with that one.

Regarding your personal attacks about intelligence and all, this is all that I have to say about that... the word STUPIDEST is NOT A WORD. Do me a favor, the next time that you want to try to slam me, at least use real words that do not immediately indicate just where your mind is at. You have now made three attempts to attack me and they were all without merit. I, as you, am done with listening to your blabbering.

Leon, thanks for the email, I appreciate your understanding and patience.

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Posted By: John

Classic I love people who throw down and then get their feelings hurt. Then try to play the victim. In your post deleted by Leon you attacked everyone here who had an opinion different than yours, saying that you were tired of their whining and blabbering. In fact the title of your post was “Enough”.

Then you attacked my post telling me to drop the point I made about Anson to another board member that I had no proof of those matters, and implied that I was keeping hate alive by mentioning Anson in the first place, and then to let it go. I simply countered by making a point that all history can be debated but just because there is no hard evidence it doesn’t make it untrue.

Then you attacked my typo implying that I was an uneducated moron and should by a “ticket” back to school. A lot of people here make typos I guess it must really bother you to be surrounded by all these stupid people.

Now your final attack, and now you play the victim. You got me Dan what can I say I used the slang descriptive of the word “stupid” technically not a word, you’re right my bad.

http://www.answers.com/stupidest&r=67

So cry all you want I’m so sorry you feel I’m picking on you. Just remember you started this and attacked others & me first. To bad your posts aren’t here too read since they were deleted.

Once again you have my email, if you would like to continue I suggest we take this offline, where we can bum each other out in private. I’m sure the others would like to get back to talking about baseball cards, as do I.

And for the record the characters name is spelled Willy Wonka with a “Y” I would hate to see you make a grammatical error I know how it bothers you so.

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Posted By: barrysloate

I know I shouldn't get in the middle of a fight, and I am not the moderator of the board, but as a friendly suggestion maybe you two guys want to take a deep breath and count to ten.

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Posted By: john/z28jd

Altho i looked it up and got the same answer from a different source i dont agree with the word "stupidest" not being a word.I mustve heard and used that word combined over a 1000 times.When hundreds of people use a word and no one has ever said to me(or i to them) that its not a word THEN i can safely come to the conclusion that it is a real word,it just might not be "proper" grammar.I would continue using it John because thats the first time ive ever heard that its not a word.


In fact i just checked a search of Yahoo for the word stupidest and its used at one point or another in over 1 million pages.Im going out on a limb and saying if a words been used minimum 1 million times on the internet alone then its a real word contrary to the dictionary.I think youre using a dictionary like its a price guide and assuming that its perfect and its word(pardon the pun) is final but we all know price guides are just guides and are sometimes wrong.The makers of the dictionary are obvious trying to tell us whats right and wrong,but i can see thru their elistist BS! I declare that on this day "stupidest" is now officially a word and all non-believers of its credibility as a word will be dealt with severely(Im thinking finger pointing and laughing to start,possible rock throwing from there,better make that pebbles,rocks could hurt)

This probably my stupidest post ever,sigh

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Posted By: Howie

stupid stupidly stupidest stupider

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Posted By: Bob C

"Stupid Is As Stupid Does"
Forrest Gump

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Posted By: George Altemose

I remember Roberto Clemente as a player, and I never liked him. He thought of himself as a Puerto Rican first and an American second, if he thought of himself as an American at all. In 1960, when the Pirates won the World Series, their shortstop, Dick Groat, was selected as National League MVP. In a fit of tasteless grousing, Clemente complained that he was discriminated against in the MVP voting because he was Puerto Rican, and rightfully deserved the award. To show his team spirit, he never wore his World Series ring, but wore his All-Star ring instead. What a great guy.

Now we have the subject of no-talent sons of famous ballplayers who feel entitled to cash in on the accomplishments their fathers. The most famous recent example, of course, is the lovable John Henry Williams, the son of the Frozen Splinter. Then there was Dale Berra, son of Yogi. Yogi would only do autograph shows if the show included Dale. Now, I will admit that I have not followed the career of Junior Clemente. But I will be very surprised if he has not spent his life in Puerto Rico taking full advantage of the name bequeathed to him by his famous father. If I am being unfair, and that can be shown, I will apologize. But until that time, I remain unsympathetic to the whining of spoiled sons, who are likely to be unhappy only because someone else is feeding at their trough.

So if people want to take money from their Beanie Baby budgets and spend it on buying used parts of Roberto Clemente’s airplane from Joshua Evans, I say "good luck" to all of them. And if Junior Clemente feels left out, tough noogies.

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Posted By: Jim Hoffman

Roberto Junior recently started doing a weekend radio show on WFAN in New York called "The Latin Beat". He had also done some baseball broadcasting for ESPN in recent years.

And whether Roberto Jr. is deemed successful or not in your eyes, George, he did lose his father at a young age in an airplane crash.

I'll be the first to say that he's probably milked his family name for a fair amount of his success, but the same could be said for John Kennedy Jr, and George W. Bush.

My objections to the auction lots really don't have much to do with the Clemente family's objections. They have to do with my own objections. Clemente Sr. died a hero's death, and some dirtbag went fishing for his scraps, to sell at a profit. I don't have words to describe the disgust I feel toward him.

And right there beside him is Joshua Evans, the slime of the hobby.

If you're not offended by the Clemente wreckage, how about the Scott Peterson signed business card that Joshua Evans is selling? How much more obscene does it have to get before you'll steer clear of this creep?

And how many consignors even want to be associated with someone like that?

As a buyer, my money will never go to Joshua Evans, so even if your conscience doesn't steer you away from him, consignors, let your wallets understand that I'll gladly buy from another auctioneer.

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Posted By: Daniel Bretta

Scott Peterson's business card??? Geez....talk about profiteering from misery.

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Posted By: Jim Hoffman

For the record, earlier this week, poster DJ noted that the Lelands auction was including the Scott Peterson business card.

I was unaware of it until he posted it on this thread.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

George, your post suggests that Clemente was a selfish, me-first guy. Err, is the irony completely lost on you that he died bringing relief supplies to victims of a natural disaster -- that did not take place in his beloved Puerto Rico? Can you imagine Barry Bonds doing that? Or Ty Cobb? Or George W. Bush? Clemente may have been prickly but he hardly deserves to be labeled a selfish bastard.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

I read today in the NY Times that Leland's was removing the Clemente plane parts because of the outrage of it's clientele. Considering the bashing Leland's took previously, perhaps some kudos could be offered here.

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Posted By: leon

I also got a personal email, a few days ago from Josh, stating that something was going to happen. He also stated I am not objective when I told him the only issue I had was with the families feelings not being taken into account. Everyone has a right to their opinion. I don't want to sign up for the NY Times paper but the title of the article is:

Plane Parts Removed From Auction
By RICHARD SANDOMIR
Published: June 17, 2005
Leland's, the sports auction house that was selling parts from the DC-7 that Roberto Clemente died in 32 years ago, agreed to remove the items and donate one of them.


regards......

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

I got a personal email from him as well where he stated that he didn't know me and that my opinion carries no weight with him because I have not done business with him in the past. Nevermind the fact that I have had email conversations with him in the past and that he said he would send me past copies of his auction catalogs for the cost of shipping for which he never got back to me on. So he'll have to excuse me for thinking that his word means nothing.

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Posted By: barrysloate

What is the connection between being a customer and being able to express a valid opinion? Can't non-customers be intelligent too?

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Posted By: Julie

answer the announcement...and I have oft told the story about the Cleveland anonymous Joe Jackson I had to bid on as if it were a White Sox Brace photo, because Leland's said so...and yesterday, I got my Leland's catalogues FedEx, HAD TO SIGN FOR...

I don't expect any more from (even the most prestigeous) auction houses except that they sell what they choose at the highest price possible...it's the nature of the beast.

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Posted By: J Levine

I understand that Leland's is a big auction house and honestly I never bid in one of their auctions but are/were these items on consignment? I think I would be horrified to find out that Leland's bought these items first from someone and then tried to sell them. It does make me ill to see the plane parts, and the Peterson business card is truly sick.

I tend to stay away from this stuff but human nature tends to gravitate towards it. I live in Los Angeles and people often buy property here for odd reasons including the Sharon Tate/Manson house, Houdini's house, and the Simpson's condo.

In history, people have often profited from misery (anyone wanna buy a piece of the true cross?).

I also wonder (just wonder--no proof)... the timing of this auction. After watching REA and Mastro seem to make huge profits in their last few auctions and Leland's seeming to fall behind it seems sort of suspicious (to my cynical mind) that they would do this...let the parts sit for weeks (when the family wanted them pulled before the auction started) until things start to die down and then suddenly "see the light" and pull the parts and make a charitable donation. I know I am jaded lately but sheesh...

Joshua

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Posted By: Jim Hoffman

There seems to be a tiny glimmer of humanity coming from the otherwise blackhearted Joshua Evans after seeing his announcement to pull the Clemente auction items. I'll take him for his word in the NYTimes article that he was pulling the pieces because of some outcry from his customers.

I'm still disgusted by the inclusion of the Scott Peterson business card and hope that the same customers influence his judgment on pulling that lot. Fittingly, as I write this, the current high bid on that lot is $666.

I'm stunned by the number of people in this thread who have a history with Evans where he came off as being a jerk. I don't understand the benefit in conducting business that way.

When it comes to discretionary buying, it's so much easier to spend money with people you like.

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Posted By: Joshua Leland Evans

Leon
I assumed our private correspondence was just that but now I know for the future
You have also perhaps unknowingly misinterpreted the thoughts that I expressed to you
In my first email I merely expressed a problem I had with personal attacks on the board
I will fight for anyone’s right to their opinion so say what you want about the issue or my firm but personal attacks and denigrations should be off limits according to the rules of the Forum
Yes I’m a big sensitive lug

After you failed to understand this point (you seemed to just ignore it) I thought it was wrong and it looked bad that a moderator was making his own subjective attack when I thought a moderator should have some objectivity
Maybe that is not the way Forums work but then pick a better word than “moderator”

This was and is merely a criticism not a condemnation
Overall, I love this Forum (sometimes I hate it yes) but I think you do a great job most of the time and this serves a valuable purpose that benefits all of us ion the long run

As for the Clemente situation we are pleased to be donating the plane (at our cost) to the Sports Museum in San Juan
We do want to apologize foremost to the Clemente Family with whom we have discussed this with and to the people of our industry who were hurt or offended by it
It is you the hobby that keeps us going

This situation has showed us many things
Number one it showed us that this was over the line
The “line” is that of good taste and what is considered to be proper

Whether or not you like us, or believe in what we did I still think it is important to find and define what and where that line is
Also, we will continue to straddle that line in our sales as to what we feel is historically significant

To be frank though, I still have questions and some ambivalence
That line is a narrow one in that it is okay for the Munson Family to sell Thurman's pilot’s license yet not okay for someone else to profit on it
I guess it has to have the family’s blessing
It is also okay to display and charge admission to see a piece of the plane that Otis Redding died in at the Rock ‘N Roll Hall of Fame in Cleveland
We differ on whether it is okay to bring up pieces of the Titanic
Much of the autograph business is based on who is dead and who is living (morbid?)
But that is what makes the world go round

As for anyone that thinks we did this for the money that is absurd
You guys know the level of business we do and how little a $5,000 or a $10,000 consignment means in comparison to the $5 million plus auction we are running as we speak (sorry for the plug)
I turned down the record album that Mark Chapman had signed by John Lennon before he shot him
That was an easy decision, but compare the commissions if you think I am a cold heartless Fagin
The commissions would have been tens of thousands of dollars

I put the pieces in the auction based on a vision, my vision, Mike Heffner’s vision
We want an auction that is #1 authentic (and we have the cleanest auction in the hobby) and #2 interesting
We look for historical significance, aesthetics and yes dollars (you have to stay in business)
That is why there has always been a memorabilia focus (now changing to cards as well) where things are more unusual, more aesthetic
An auction should be a beautiful tapestry woven from that vision

So you think my vision sucks?
Well that may be true but that’s why they call it Lelands and not something else

Now I am going to get a ton more of grief for this post
Try to stay constructive and use words that have at least one syllable
And Leon, please do not publish my home phone number
And thank you for listening

Respectfully,
Josh Evans

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Posted By: Frank Evanov

"I put the pieces in the auction based on a vision, my vision, Mike Heffner’s vision
We want an auction that is #1 authentic (and we have the cleanest auction in the hobby) and #2 interesting
We look for historical significance, aesthetics and yes dollars (you have to stay in business)"

What a line! Does this guy think we're stupid. I don't like having my son pick up the Leland Catalog and finding lot #265 "Early Porno Postcards". These are explicit XXX. How about lot #246...an actual shrunken head. Yeah, that's real "aesthetics".

Frank

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Posted By: John

Yeah I agree we should censor everything that anyone could find offensive. Lets have a good old-fashioned book burning while were at it.

There are countless museums around the world that display and sell items like the current items that Leland’s is selling. Leland’s obviously caters too a large clientele that have collecting interests beyond sports cards & memorabilia (you mean people collect other stuff? WOW!). Just because a guy is selling some early erotic postcards & a shrunken head, doesn’t make him a smut peddling witch doctor give the guy a break.

Once again if this kind-of-stuff offends you. Get your picket signs and torches ready you’ve got bigger fish to fry compared to Leland’s.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

I suspect Lelands was taken aback by the reaction, in part because similar memorabilia has been auctioned by others and no one complained. As just one example, MastroNet sold the watch Knute Rockne wore when his plane crashed and I don't recall anyone complaining or even bringing it up (We all get the catalogs so I'm sure many here and in other forums saw the lot).

There's no question Lelands offers some wild stuff, but I would have no interest in their catalogs if all they contained was UDA baseballs and Juan Lebron basketball cards.

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Posted By: Dan Cariseo

What's the real point of having this thread continue really? There were a lot of "immature" and one-sided statements on this thread and all you're going to get is an encore presentation as they attack Josh's retort and statement.

There is Pro-Choice/Pro-Life, Democrat/Republican, Religeon Yes/No and while I think everyone here is "against" the actions of Nazi Germany, the debate over the memorabilia will be divided into two sides. Should you be able to collect Nazi Ceramics and what do you think of that person who bought a signed Adolf Hitler book several days ago for $40,000?

It's okay for Thurman Munson's widow to sell her late husband's pilot license but if Leland's (or anyone) was selling it, that would simply be sick, right?

So we should wait for ALL the relatives of any historical tragedy to pass away before it's okay, or are there rules that only the person with "the opinion" knows about? Didn't an auction company (Mastro?) just sell Knute Rockne's "plane crash" watch and where was his sons and/or daughters?

Aren't there Kennedy items out there and I'm pretty sure I can buy a copy of the film where the back of Jack's head explodes in slow motion as we look at it frame by frame by frame by frame.

I have no interest whatsoever in purchasing the item in this debate but I also don't really see all that much of a problem in them selling it. I can also see the side of the Clemente family and I can see the side of the person opposed to the sale. I also see that it's a historical piece of baseball history that ended the life of one of the truly great baseball players toward the end of his playing career doing an amazing thing for people.

If Sotheby's had an auction of "swollen heads" or Exotica or anything like that, no one would think anything less of it. But because these 'unique' items mingle with one's personal interests is no reason to punish them. Their catalogs are "quite diverse" and I consider Josh a friend and I do appreciate the Lelands vision.

Regards,

Dan Cariseo

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Posted By: barrysloate

We can debate this point ad nauseam but in the end Joshua did the right thing. We can be cynical about what his motivation may have been but he donated the parts to a museum at his cost and at this point you can't ask him to do any more. What's done is done. Time for everyone to move on.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

I also applaud Josh for two reasons: first, he took the item out of his auction when he didn't have to once he learned of the outcry by the Clemente family and the public. It is clear that the inclusion of the items were not designed to directly make Leland's any real money based on their relatively low value. Second, Josh came on here and gave his side of the story even after getting ripped here pretty good. Keep in mind that in any business, one's detractors, even if they are in the great minority, are usually louder than one's proponents. That Josh listened to his clientele does suggest the opposite of what most of the complaints here centered on -- that he doesn't give a damn about what his customers think. I'm not sure if I've bought anything from Leland's as one past auction tends to fade into another in my rapidly aging mind; however, my position on the auction houses is if you see something in their catalogues that you like, bid on it and buy it. If they send it to you after you pay, they've done their jobs. For what it's worth, Leland's traditionally does have great stuff in their catalogues. End of story.

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Posted By: Frank Evanov

"Just because a guy is selling some early erotic postcards & a shrunken head, doesn’t make him a smut peddling witch doctor"

True, but it it makes his statements about his auctions being based "on a vision, my vision...of aesthetics" sound really absurd and phony. Notice that he did not post here until after he pulled the Clemente items and that he then used that post to critcize Leon.


And btw John, I don't use "picket signs and torches". I'm content to not deal with Lelands and leave it at that.

Frank

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Posted By: leon

Just not commenting as everyone is free to say what they want. I am doing the best I can and don't like censorship....and my prevoius responses in this thread state my continued opinion....regards all