Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim

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Posted By: Glenn

Bravo!

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Posted By: warshawlaw

We all know that grading companies mess up and grade trimmed cards from time to time. We all know they mess up and grade cards cut from sheets from time to time. We all know that they occasionally grade outright fakes. We fight over these issues all the time. PSA, SGC, GAI, etc., make these mistakes after years of experience and presumably knowledge gained from ferreting out trimmed cards. So why is it so hard to believe that at the start of the grading era, the people at PSA were fooled by an expertly trimmed T206 Wagner brought to them by seemingly credible submitters at a time when they were looking to make a splash? So what it if it is an important and valuable card? They all make errors. PSA slabbed a fake Ruth rookie...And just to be fair and avoid straw man whining that I'm pickin on poor ol' PSA again, SGC slabbed an altered Doyle.

Moving away from the "is it trimmed-isn't it trimmed" question to the broader question, why is it so hard to believe that everyone with a direct stake in this card (PSA, the card's owners, the auctioneers, the cutter-downers, etc.) prefers to hype the card and do what it takes to establish a record price every time out of the box, that everyone who supposedly has the real story is reluctant to back it up with the alleged photos, and that there are many people who will ardently defend the "honor" of the PSA 8 Wagner even though they have not a shred of first-hand knowledge of the facts? There is much more at stake than just this card. To even acknowledge that there is a valid question about the PSA 8 Wagner could result in the collapse of the house of graded cards, taking lots of businesses and investments down the toilet with it. Lots of people have stakes, large and small, direct and indirect, in the continued good name of PSA, the PSA 8 Wagner and the graded card business in general. I am not suggesting the existence of a grand conspiracy of silence among the grading services and their customers to suppress the truth, but I am suggesting that people's views of the PSA 8 Wagner are colored by the baggage that they bring to the table, and that baggage includes their stakes in the continued good health of the graded card market.

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Posted By: barrysloate

But we're only talking about one card, not the fate of the Western World.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

wanna bet?

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Posted By: David Smith

It would be nice if all the Piedmont backed Wagners were brought together and compared. Then, compare those to some Sweet Caporal Wagners and see if there are any differences.


David

PS. If there becomes enough buzz about this card, there might be a TV special about it, something like Al Capone's vault. There would be the history about the card, the myths, the owners and the amount of money involved. Then there would be the cracking out ceremony and the comparisons. Finally, there would be the regrading, both by PSA and SGC.

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Posted By: barrysloate

I think the best thing that could come out of all of this is that all the grading services, especially the sloppier ones, were forced to work a little harder to minimze their mistakes. Nobody can be 100% but everyone has the ability to get a little better.

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

Adam,

I was hearing the "battle hymn of the republic" in my mind while I read that post... Well done!!!

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

....and the worst case scenario....could be that the "House of Plastic Cards" comes tumbling down.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Ted- I'm going to guess there's a part of you that is rooting for that!

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

After 24 years of friendship, I thought you were pretty good at reading my mind......BUT,
this time you missed.....I have some nice vintage cards in plastic....just a fraction of my
collection; nevertheless, a lot of value in them.

No, I don't want the plastics industry to tumble, it'd ripple on down and affect the naked
card values, also.

TED Z

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Posted By: Dan Kravitz

I don't think it will affect card values or perception amongst true collectors. Just a perception among non-collectors, which sucks, but really will have very little affect on prices cause they aint buying 'em anyway.

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Posted By: barrysloate

And in the end, nor do I. And I suspect it will be business as usual, and the next guy who buys the PSA 8 Wagner will probably be good for 3 million.

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Posted By: Scott Elkins

PSA did NOT make a mistake on slabbing the card. PSA initially REJECTED the card. Then, after a phone call from a major player in this and the Hobby, PSA slabbed the card an 8! We all know the guy. In fact, I have spoken with several people in the Hobby whom he has told to submit their cards to his auctions and he would have PSA grade them a couple grades higher! I am sure Mike O. will have all of this in his book that comes out in May.

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Posted By: MikeU

I am absolutely amazed at some of the trivial items this board gets excited about and conversly does not get excited about.

Some recent relatively trivial items that have enraged many people:

1. Banner ads = Leon selling his soul.
2. Bobby Binder calling out a "former" customer.
3. Doug Allen being truthfull about wrinkle removal.
4. Pete Calderon being candid about whiny customers and PR-GD conditioned cards.
5. Jim Crandell's work to start a collectors group.
6. Eating dinner.

Some of the same people that are outraged by any of items 1-6 above, do not feel the trimmed Wagner is a big deal. I just can not understand someone being outraged at Leon for banner ads or outraged at Doug Allen for being hones, but then say the Wagner situation is fine.

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Posted By: MikeU

"PSA did NOT make a mistake on slabbing the card. PSA initially REJECTED the card. Then, after a phone call from a major player in this and the Hobby, PSA slabbed the card an 8! We all know the guy. In fact, I have spoken with several people in the Hobby whom he has told to submit their cards to his auctions and he would have PSA grade them a couple grades higher! I am sure Mike O. will have all of this in his book that comes out in May."

Scott,

Was this special relationship with PSA only with the last regime (Steve, Mike, Dan) or has it continued with the current regime?

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Posted By: Mike Pugeda

What if, in the near future, as Scott Elkins has stated, that a book comes out about this card with concrete evidence about what most speculate?

Say PSA rescinds (doubtful) the grade and labels AUTH, what would this card be worth then 250,000...500,000...or more? What do you guys/gals think?

Mike

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Posted By: Josh Adams

"PSA did NOT make a mistake on slabbing the card. PSA initially REJECTED the card. Then, after a phone call from a major player in this and the Hobby, PSA slabbed the card an 8! We all know the guy. In fact, I have spoken with several people in the Hobby whom he has told to submit their cards to his auctions and he would have PSA grade them a couple grades higher! I am sure Mike O. will have all of this in his book that comes out in May."

Objection. Hearsay.

Sustained.

Go Go White Sox
2005 World Series Champions!

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Posted By: Jim Crandell

Mike,

It truly is amazing--seems like many could care less about the Wagner or care less that their own cards are trimmed trimmed. And you were ready to send $100 immediately as I recall to the collectors group. We will let the hubbub die down and start again with the right people.
It was my mistake making it open and my mistake letting Mastronet in and probably my mistake not controlling the agenda.

Jim

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Posted By: Joann

"It was my mistake making it open and my mistake letting Mastronet in and probably my mistake not controlling the agenda."

In fact, it was my mistake to not do it completely on my own and impose my views on the entire collecting world! Yes. Yes. That's where I went wrong!

Whatever Trevor.

Joann

Oh - and I said I wouldn't make anymore backbone comments and I won't. You (Jim) clarified that and I note that you have not used the term since. However, that doesn't mean I won't comment on all the rest of the bs.

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Posted By: Matt

Seems like now would be a good time to release this.

Strike while the irons hot.

http://www.amazon.com/Card-Collectors-Historys-Desired-Baseball/dp/0061123927/sr=8-1/qid=1172726450/ref=sr_1_1/102-3433528-7870569?ie=UTF8&s=books

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Posted By: MW

The cover graphic is interesting but I think Michael O'Keeffe could have chosen better "vintage" cards than a 1960 Fleer Lou Gehrig and a 1961 Fleer Honus Wagner, both of which appear in the background. Perhaps a variety of other T206 Hall of Famers would have made better wallpaper behind the T206 Wagner.

I wonder if the book will make its predicted 12 June 2007 release date.

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Posted By: MW

It also appears that O'Keeffe's book has taken on a title change. Here's what an "insider" literature blog had to say about an earlier draft of the book:

http://www.guttertype.com/2005_08_01_archive.html

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Remember folks that this is the same Michael O'Keefe who lied about what was said on this messageboard in one of his columns. I take anything he says (writes) with a grain of salt. He also seems to have a fixation on Bill Mastro.

I eagerly await his usual nasty email to my inbox anytime in the next 24 hours.

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

It will be interesting to see a HUGE expose on this issue come to life. All it will take is a good reporter with a nose for the truth and we'll so how it all pans out. Do I think it would ruin the hobby if the PSA8 Wagner was truly exposed for what it is? NO. It would certainly make PSA look bad and it would put a few black eyes out there but at least we'd get to the bottom of it and we'd have one less thread to repeat. On second thought, I hope they don't expose the fraud for what it is, there'd be less to talk about here...

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Posted By: Dylan

Remember folks, psa looked at having the chance of grading the Wagner as huge publicity when psa opened up their doors. Is it that hard to imagine them grading the card regardless of alteration so they could get all the good press that comes from having the "worlds most valuable" baseball card in a PSA holder? This was huge in the news, they probably made a lot of money of the exposure. If it was all based on a fraud then they deserve to fall just as hard.

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Posted By: William Heitman

Back in the '50's, and even earlier than that, there was a group of hobby veterans who, in their spare time, liked to redo older sets of cards. They would make changes--like completely renumbering the 1933 Goudey set, or changing backs. They felt that these changes would make it obvious that these were reprints. Boy, were they wrong. Trouble is that they (many were affiliated to card producers, i.e. Topps, Bowman, Gum, Inc., etc) had access to vintage presses, inks and paper, and the ones they did turned out really good. I saw many of these when I was young and listened to my father laugh at just how good they were and just how stupid anyone would be to believe them to be real. "Strip" cards are not called that because they were printed on strips(which they very obviously were), but because they were originally sold to the public the very same way they were printed. Printing cards on sheets with multiple rows of cards was an advent of the '30's, the very same time that hobby veterans started to talk to each other and out of which grew this unusual idea of redoing old sets of cards. I've seen some of these cards surface over the years and cause a real stir in the hobby. A lot of it is wishful thinking. Unfortunately, a lot of the stir is the product of just plain lack of knowledge. The preferred method of storing cards that were collected until plastic sheets came along was in neat little rows in cardboard boxes(Velveta boxes were especially good). With that method of storage, after just a few years a fake looks just about as aged as a card that is ninety years old that was stored that same way. Reprints have been around for years and years. They weren't originally done to fool anyone, but, unfortunately, they do.

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Posted By: Chuck

Not having paid much attention to graded cards I have some basic questions that I didn't see the answer to above:

Is it not possible for a card to be cut from a sheet by a collector and receive a high grade if done well and to match the normal size?

Is the issue that any card that has been cut after it left the factory is understood to require a lower grade or a qualifier?

Or is it that this cut wasn't done well enough or that PSA and others have lied about it?

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Joann,

You might think its bs but there is a substantial amount of card restoration/alteration going on on raw, low grade, mid grade and high grade cards. So no matter what you collect it affects you. You can close your eyes like you seem to be doing or attempt to be part of the solution. Its time consuming and perhaps costly to be part of the solution however.

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Posted By: Joann

Good Morning Jim,

I wasn't calling the issue of alterations bs - that clearly is an important hobby topic.

I took issue with you wanting to reconvene with the "right people", and saying it was a mistake to leave it open to all collectors, with an agenda that allowed open discussion. I may be going out on a limb here, but I suspect that "right people" really means "people that agree with me and my point of view".

Probably a good idea to start again with the right people. No more of that pesky openness that just invites other points of view anyways.

Joann

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Joann,

I think it has to begin with people that think card alteration/restoration is a problem and that something needs to be done. Beyond that I am open to ideas.

Jim

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Posted By: Dan Kravitz

Why does every thread that I find interesting and would like to continue (or at least stay on track) end with Jim fighting with a board member? Please, contain your BS on one thread. No one cares if it goes 1,000 deep, but stop f'ing up every thread! Dan Kravitz

edited the f'ing word only...all of the letters were left in it...

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Dan,

I couldn't agree more.

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Posted By: joe brennan

If I am reading Bill's post correctly, then there maybe an authenticity issue surrounding Wagners with certain backs. Is this a reason we have only 3 with this back? Very interesting. If a select few collectors had access to vintage presses and inks and the knowledge, then only they know what they produced. Wouldn't fool anyone back then, but as the years went on and these collectors faded into the back ground who knows what has surfaced as authentic. Very interesting read Bill. Thank you.

In Rememberance of James W. Brennan Sr. 1924-1982. Dad, thanks for everything you did for me.

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Posted By: Mark Evans

I can't wait to read the new book. I hope it addresses not only the allegation that the card was hand-cut from a sheet, but also Bill Heitman's point that such sheets were not printed until the 1930s. This fact seems to me to even further diminish the card's value.

The most intriguing aspect of this discussion to me is the timing of the most recent sale. Assuming the buyer is aware of the book and that it undoubtedly questions the provenance of the card, he/she must have determined that the controversy can only enhance its value.

By the way, this thread strikes me as an example of this forum at its best. Mark

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Posted By: leon

I don't think there is anyway all of the (4) known Piedmont backed Wagners are rebacked or not real. The one that I saw recently was the one that had the Charles Bray letter with it, auctioned by Mastro. It's been around for almost 60 years, as a known card, so I don't think it's got a problem....regards

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Posted By: barrysloate

I think that when the order came down to cease distribution of the T206 Wagner, the Sweet Caporals had already been distributed, while the Piedmonts had yet to leave the factory. All the Piedmont Wagners were thereby destroyed, except a handful that found their way out the back door.

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Posted By: daryle

I viewed "THE" card in 1992 at the National Convention in Atlanta. This is the first time I've viewed these articles, but have heard of them. When I saw the card in '92 I only knew that it was the "PSA8 WAGNER!!!!". My first thoughts when I got up close to the card (if you didn't see it that weekend it was in a big stand up glass case on a pedastal on an 8-foot table all by itself and you could get like 3 inches from the card) was "It looks like it's been trimmed." Really that was my thoughts. I turned to my friend (R.I.P........1974-1997), who was not that big of a collector, but had seen my T206s and the other several 1000 that we had looked at the show, and asked him to look at it close. He agreed...............trimmed. Then, the news hit.........is it trimmed??????..............hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm I'd rather have on in lower grade than this one, because its trimmed!...........

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Posted By: Aaron

Anybody have a scan front and back of the Wagner strip from the Halper collection?

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Posted By: Dave Hornish

Interesting that Bob Sevchuk was involved. I grew up in Hicksville and went to grade school across the street from his store (actually, that was earlier since I'm so damn old) and when I reconnected with hobby I started going to his shop (co-owned with Marty Perry at the time) and he always had some amazing one-of-a-kind pieces. Bob was involved in a number of contoversial deals over the years (remember the Hall of Fame scandal with their World Series programs being sold?) but he certainly knew how to get nice stuff that no one else had. I still have a number of cards I purchased from Bob over the years; his shop was great!

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Posted By: Scott B.

Found this interesting article on T206 Museum regarding trimmed Wagner

http://www.t206museum.com/page/discussion_2.html

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Posted By: davidcycleback

A visiting out of state science professor (sports fan but non-collector) mentioned to me he read in the news
the card sold for $2.35 million. Making conversation, I smilingly told him some people think the card is trimmed.
He had no idea what trimmed meant, how and why it was done. He didn't know if trimming was considered
good or bad. I explained why someone would trim a card: that prices are dependent on condition and trimming
can artificially raise the condition. "Interesting," he said.

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Posted By: peter chao

David,

So what's the difference between the Wagner being hand-cut from the sheet and trimming.

Peter

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Posted By: davidcycleback

All that really matters in the hobby is disclosure. Though I don't know why (beyond potential $$)
someone would cut down an uncut T206 sheet into singles, unless major portions of the sheet had major
cardboard rot or rat savaging.

A number of years ago a stash of complete uncut 1957 Topps sheets were found, including Mays, Mantle, Koufax
and all the stars. Many to most of the sheets were cut down into smaller panels of varying size. This
was in part due to marketability, I'm sure, but also for practical/aesthetic reasons. Due to storage
condition some portions of the sheets were sharp and clean, while others were torn, stained and literally
filled with bullet sized holes. The owners felt it best to cut down the sheets to more attractive panels,
and sold them as cut from sheets. They often told the history of the sheets when selling. If you ever see a
1957 Topps panel of 6, 9 or whatever cards, they likely were trimmed from these sheets ... Even if the history
is not said for a 9 card 1957 Topps panel, there's no deception, as a panel had to have been cut down at one time
or other from a larger sheet-- and obviously a panel isn't being marketed as a factory cut single card ready
for entombment by your favorite singles grader. A 9 card panel won't fit into a SGC or PSA singles holder even
if you fold it twice and push real hard.

Duly note, that I haven't offered my personal opinion on whether or not the card is trimmed, and it
shouldn't be interpreted that I have.

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Posted By: peter chao

David,

Now your sounding like the expert witness that you are. Actually, I can almost picture it...ten years from now there's another buyer for the Holy Grail. The Buyer says he was cheated because the Wagner was trimmed and the trial to determine the fate of our hobby starts...your called to the stand for your opinion.

That would be a pretty hot seat to be sitting in.

Peter

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Posted By: Scott Elkins

I have ALWAYS felt that these Piedmont Wagners are from the 50's. I have always felt that they were printed with Piedmont backs b/c real Wagners were ONLY known with SC 150 backs from Fact. 25. I truly believe that were these Piedmont Wagners from the "era", there would be MORE than Sweet Caporal available - b/c Piedmont is even more common than Sweet Caporal.

I have seen some of these 1950 Piedmont Wagners, where the people admit what they have - they look VERY REAL! I almost bought one early on, then realized REAL WAGNERS SHOULD ONLY BE FOUND WITH A SWEET CAPORAL 150 FACT. 25 BACK!

Like Leon stated - the one that was sold in Mastro ONLY has a provenance dating back to the 1950's!!!! I seriously doubt a Piedmont Wagner will ever be found dating back to 1909 like it SHOULD!

I believe the sheet found in FL to be one of these 1950's reprints. Afterall, the Plank had a SC 150 back, the Wagner had a Piedmont 150 back and from every source I have heard this story, the cards were on a SHEET - NOT A STRIP (again, please refer back to Mr. Heitman's post above regarding cards not printed on sheets until the 1930's).

I have been chastized a lot believing the Wagner PSA 8 dates back NO MORE than the 1950's. However, I would tell anyone in the market for a REAL WAGNER to buy one with a Sweet Caporal 150 back from Fact. 25!!!!!

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Posted By: barrysloate

There's an awful lot of information circulating about just what this PSA 8 Wagner is all about. So much, in fact, that it is impossible that one card could be all these things at the same time.

It would be nice if we were able to separate fact from fiction. At this point I don't know what the real story is.

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Posted By: peter chao

Scott,

That's scandalous, the Holy Grail is a reprint...the mystery is getting deeper.

Peter

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

David-that's interesting. I have two of those 1957 panels, three cards each. I always wondered where they came from and thought maybe they were some sort of promotional magazine insert or something. Nice to know how they got that way.

They're very nice and very well-preserved.

-Al

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Posted By: davidcycleback

Al, if your panels are in high grade, that's a good deal. The panels vary widely in grade, with some
having water stains and a bullet hole or two.

There are also 1950s Topps and Bowman salesman samples, which are small panels of uncut finished cards. Salesmen
used these to promote the product to stores. The key is that the salesmen samples have company advertising
pasted across the back (they physically glued a paper add across the backs of the panel). The 1957 Topps
cards cut from the earlier mentions sheets have no such ads, just showing the normal card backs.

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Old Judges were printed on Sheets and so were T206's period. I can't speak to the 30's or 50's printing, but I can say that of 4-6 cards have been re-assembled to establish part of a T206 sheet, so strips are out of the question. Personally, I think Barry is correct, that the Piedmont Wagners were printers scrap that went out the back door, but we will probably never know. Be well Brian


PS If someone could reprint Wagners and Plank's in the 50's; I think they would have created more than 2-3......