Collector's Association

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Posted By: Joe D.

If SGC is the only grading company -
then who decides that SGC screwed something up for you to get paid on the 100% guarantee?


I think multiple authorities (multiple trusted independent grading companies) is a much healthier situation.

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Posted By: Cat

I would like to join the group that Ryan envisions. Where can I learn the secret handshake and receive my decoder ring?

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Wesley -- now you've got me: I'm not sure if YOUR post was tongue-in-cheek. Actually, I think Ryan cares a great deal about the hobby. I just don't think he believes Armageddon is upon us. By the way, Ryan, your comic timing is admirable. And I agree with Ted's perspective, I don't think that the hobby is heading off the edge of a cliff, either. However, I do believe that the doctoring that goes on is a big problem but, alas, one that will not be solved unless we can somehow affect the money flow towards the auction houses and the grading companies in some meaningful manner. Remember, these businesses are businesses first and designed to make money, period. While they may have been started by people that care about the hobby they have financial responsibilities to their bottom lines and will behave accordingly to a large degree. Frankly, I don't see any mechanism that has been set forth that can impact these institutions in any meaningful manner. Perhaps it can happen, perhaps not. And Jim, of course I'd donate money towards any such organization - regardless of your stance on abortion. It's not the stance that bothers me, it was just your presentation of it that was offensive.

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

I've already given my two cents on this issue, but I figured I'd give two more, just to make sure what I wrote was not misconstrued in any way.

I do not envision a high-powered association with the ability to act as a police force that will fine people who do not behave a certain way, blackball people who do not ascribe to a set of standards, or create definitions that will force collectors to build their collections a certain way. Nor do I envision a high-powered association that will cater to a market niche.

I am not one to make suggestions that will prevent anyone from making an attempt at earning a living. There's too much hearsay in this hobby as it is, and cards change hands too many times that the risk of blackballing someone for selling an altered card THAT THEY DID NOT ALTER is a risky proposal.

What I'm saying is that if collectors had a resource that they could turn to - even if they paid for a "membership" - where they could educate themselves, they would have the ability to make the proper buying decisions. I think people should be able to decide for themselves whether they want to avoid people who sell altered cards without disclosure (or even WITH disclosure). What's missing is the INFORMATION. If a collector does not know how to tell that the Goudey Ruth they're eyeing has rebuilt corners, and they really like the card, they're going to buy it regardless of whether the seller has adopted some Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval or not. But if they can detect the alteration, maybe they won't buy the card.

Hopefully if this happened with enough frequency, the bad apples would be forced to adopt better business practices if they wanted to continue to be relevant in the marketplace - and if they didn't, they'd go away through natural selection.

-Al

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Posted By: JimCrandell

T206,

Don't interpret this negatively but I am working on over 100 sets in high grade and the SGC cards just do not exist--and I don't have the time or interest to search for raw cards nor to play the crackout game.
For me it makes sense to stay with PSA and hope that Reza and crew are exercizing the sqame diligence as Dave and his team are.

Jim

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Posted By: T206Collector

...then you have nothing to worry about.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

I have multiple objections to a hobby organization. In no particular order they are:

1. Creating an effective sanction is going to be impossible unless people voluntarily submit to an internal dispute resolution mechanism, which many collectors, the shadier characters, and the current big players have no desire or incentive to do. I know I do not want to be part of any such scheme in my hobby life; bad enough I have to submit to the procedural nightmare that is the Bar. I'd hazard a guess that the big auction companies and slabbing companies are not going to sign on to a program that exposes them to potentially limitless liability. Without that right to sanction, however, no voluntary organization has any real teeth to it and therefore cannot have any impact. The most a group could do is to try and notify its members of a perceived bad egg, which is what we already do, and refuse to deal with it, which we already do with N54 and similar boards, and do not need any organization to do.

2. I and many of the long time collectors here know more about what we collect than anyone in charge of a collector organization could possibly know. I agree with Frank, Chad, Ted, etc., that the only way to "clean up" the hobby is to teach collectors to rely on knowledge and information about the cards rather than on someone else telling you what you are collecting. As we have discussed over and over, it is impossible to really determine whether a card has been altered except if it has been inartfully altered or in very unusual situations (like the 34 Lajoie that REA outed). Short of having a hack job or before and after images, if the card has slipped into a slab, everyone has their opinions, but no one knows for certain. What concerns me is that an elected or appointed "biddy committee" would inject itself into controversies in the name of the organization, placing anyone who signs up for such an organized effort at the mercy of the least responsible representative acting on behalf of the organization.

3. Assuming you could structure an organization with real teeth to it, you would have a huge political problem that I do not believe will ever be overcome. You are proposing to create a profoundly political organization that will inevitably be dominated by people with agendas to push and the time and money to push them. Again, being blunt and laying all my cards on the table, I view this effort as largely driven by certain collectors' panic over the grading companies (specifically PSA) slabbing very expensive prewar altered cards as near mint or better cards. As someone who does not collect them, I do not share the collecting agendas and views of those who are heavily involved in that aspect of the hobby. None of my doggies are in that fight. Potentially putting people whose views I do not agree with into a position to dictate to me what I can and cannot do as a card collector is a non-starter for me. I think many others share my view (although many are too wary of being flamed by the partisan interests on this board to say so).

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Posted By: Chad

Maybe we should start all of our threads ironically?

--Chad

(edited to sign my name)

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Posted By: Cobby33

And what do we think the result will be? Will the auction houses and dealers really stop "restoring" and otherwise altering cards? Is there a conensus that if graded, this is a huge problem?

There are plenty of watchdog groups around that have done nothing more than bring alleged wrongs to the community. Car dealers still roll back odometers, despite community and government regulation. Governments still wage morally-repugnant wars despite public outcry. I still pay more for car insurance and electricity, despite public and governmental regulation.

What, really, is the pragmatic view to a favorable result?

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Posted By: Anonymous

Warshawlaw,

Couple of quick comments:

1)You are making a lot of assumptions on what this collectors advisory council would do when that is still up for debate among collectors.

2)What you are saying puts you at odds with what Dave Forman said. First he believes he can detect any trimmed card-you say its impossible to determine whether a card has really been altered.

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Posted By: Kevin

Once detailed information of identifying various cards alterations is made known (and it may in time), there will still be problems.

Although many alterations can be categorized as clear and objective, there will be just as many that will fall into the subjective category and open to interpretation...just like grading.

A hack job is identifiable but one that has been professionally (so to say) done can be difficult to determine at times. Those may be considered highly probable or suspect at best. As an example, a card with a quality rebuilt corner is "very hard" to detect, even by the most experienced graders. Now throw that same card into a slab and it makes it even more complicated and wide open for debate. Same can be said for all questionable alterations. It wil become a "prove it" arguement.

IMHO having the knowledge will lead to making an educated decision based on clear objective findings but will not be a cure all. In fact it just may complicate matters. Nonetheless the info needs to get out there.

I think one question that needs to be asked is; how are grading companies keeping updated with the lastest doctoring techinques an new alteration discoveries?

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Posted By: MVSNYC

Al said...

"My feeling is that some sort of hobby group is a great idea, but a group that acts as a police force or drafts a "code of ethics" will be dead before it starts. What would make us think that an unethical person would ever abide by a "code of ethics"? Or that some sort of hobby group could get an auction house or dealer (or collector, for that matter) to change his practices?"...

this is exactly what i have said a few times, including at the meeting in NYC. any dealer/auction house will gladly sign the "code of ethics" (they would be shooting themselves in the foot, if they didn't)...but who is to say that they wouldn't then just keep doing any and all of the crooked things they were doing before?

i am all for the "hobby group", i just agree with Al here...a "code of ethics" would be pushing it.

***i also agree with Barry, that this board (Net54) has a huge voice in the hobby, EVERYONE checks it out (lurking or posting)...either way, people see our discussions and hear our concerns & warnings...this in itself is a great "hobby group/association"...let's keep the important questions/topics coming, and maybe we can get some things resolved right here (as i think many of you have done in the past).

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Posted By: Anonymous

Kevin,

Thanks for your comments.

I understand you are among the most knowledgeable people out there when it comes to identifying altered/restored cards.

I would love to talk to you at your convenience.

Thank you.

Perhaps you could e-mail me on when might be a good time.

Jim

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Posted By: Kevin

"I understand you are among the most knowledgeable people out there when it comes to identifying altered/restored cards."

That's just a rumor. Remember I'm a newby here!

I'll contact you soon.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Thanks Kevin--I would appreciate it.

jim

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Posted By: Anonymous

"2)What you are saying puts you at odds with what Dave Forman said. First he believes he can detect any trimmed card-you say its impossible to determine whether a card has really been altered."

No, you are misunderstanding what Dave and I said. According to you, he limited his comments to trimmed cards; I said "altered", not just trimmed. And what Dave said is not what SGC promises to the public, anyway. To quote from SGC's own web site:

"The SGC Guarantee"

"SGC guarantees that all cards submitted shall be graded by SGC grading experts in accordance with SGC grading procedures. In the event the original submitter of an SGC card believes that the card has been overgraded with respect to such procedures, the original submitter may resubmit that card to SGC for a review of the assigned grade. THIS RESUBMISSION MUST BE REQUESTED WITHIN 30 DAYS OF RECEIPT FROM SGC. If the grade determined under such review is lower than that originally assigned to the card, SGC shall, at SGC's option, either replace the card or pay the difference between the current fair market value of the card at the newly established grade and the current fair market value of the grade originally assigned to such card. Due to the volatile nature of the sportscard market and Internet auctions/sales, the selling prices in these auctions do not necessarily represent the current fair market value of any particular sportscard. SGC will determine the current fair market value of a card which is assigned a lower grade on review, based upon what SGC believes to be reliable current market information. Clerical errors with respect to the description or grade of the card(s) which would be obvious upon inspection shall not be subject to the SGC guarantee stated herein."

Ever hear "put your money where your mouth is"? SGC used to guarantee its work product and limited its guarantee with this clause shortly after its start. I wrote an article on this point in VCBC. When SGC revises this guarantee to state that it will repurchase any altered card in one of its holders, we have something to go on. Right now, we have a popcorn fart; in other words, nothing.

While I do not want this to devolve into another debate over grading, and I personally like SGC far more than any of its rivals and have entrusted them with my favorite cards, you are searching for certainty in an uncertain world, and it just does not exist. No organization is going to make you feel better about your collection, just like no grade on a slab is going to validate your collecting choices; you have to trust your own skills and knowledge.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Perhaps someone else at our dinner could verify it but it was my understanding from listening to Dave that he felt he could detect any alteration that had been done.

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Posted By: barrysloate

I think Dave's position, shared by many including myself, is that SGC's top graders are as skilled as anybody in detecting trimmed and altered cards. But it is still possible that they could make a mistake, and they do stand behind their cards and will buy them back.

What's not clear to me is at what level do they buy them back? At one's cost? At current market levels? Nevertheless, their expertise and policies are the best we have.

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Posted By: Frank Evanov

At the dinner Dave felt his company was the best at spotting alterations, but he admitted that no one can detect every alteration. You asked him how accurate his comapny was and he did not answer. He was also asked how many cards he has "bought back" and he responded that was private company info.

Frank

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Posted By: Frank Evanov

I would certainly pay $100 for an association that would increase collector knowledge [? online seminars on card alterations, nuances of certain set variations etc.]

A watchdog type group, like Net54, which would alert us about certain bad items on EBAY or in Auction House offerings would be also helpful.

I don't think a high-powered, lobbying-type organization with threatened boycotts or penalties for bad sellers will ever happen.

Frank

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Posted By: Anonymous

i think it's great in theory...and could work if certain kinks were knocked out/a consensus could be reached. however, i'd like to see the 'trimming/ alteration' focus expand to ALL cards...it's a problem in modern, vintage, all sports, and extends to various grading companies (i've yet to hear of a 'clean' grading company that has no 'allegations' against it re grading).