What makes a great collector?

[Archive]

Posted By: barry arnold

a great collector of vintage baseball cards (IMHO)...

has considerable knowledge of the cards--- brought about by the dedicated research of
colleagues focused on increasing knowledge regarding the cards,resulting in
positive contributions to the field;

prizes his/her cards as treasures to behold and share, as appropriate;

recognizes and respects the community of collectors as (1) holders of a great
wealth of knowledge,(2) fellow laborers in the pursuit of new insights in the field ,and (3)those privileged with the task of elucidating the rich traditions which provide the
context for any new insights.
The great collector recognizes the import and fluidity of the Roman phrase 'primus inter
pares'--first among equals, i.e. who is 'first' changes according to who may
be best informed in particular areas along the way. The great collector
eagerly steps back,making way, most supportively, for whomever has the next positive contribution.

all the best,

Barry

[Archive]

Posted By: RC McKenzie

In 1976 I was in the 3rd grade.. We were supposed to bring in something for show and tell and I brought in a poster board with 1976 topps cards scotch-taped to it. I had a Pete Rose and Tony Perez all-star taped on there. I spoke in front of the class while they dozed off and got a B. After class, 'Todd' came up to me with a concerned look on his face. He said, "You know you just ruined those cards!". I shrugged and told him that they weren't really worth anything anyway other than the stories about baseball. He has a show in town on the radio now called "Ask Dr. Todd".

[Archive]

Posted By: jay behrens

You know as little about me as you claim I know about you. Your post just proves that on the surface, your claim a passion for the hobby, but it still comes across as an exercise to drop names and try to make yourself look important and impress others. You are neither. You are a spoiled rich kid desperately seeking the approval of others and belittling those that you feel are beneath you, which is essentially everyone. How did you put it? Everyone on Net54 is a bunch of pedestrian collectors, I believe is your exact words.

I've met many of the collectors mentioned in this thread and you would be served well to learn the humility that almost all those collectors have, as you lack one single drop of it.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

[Archive]

Posted By: Mark

Hey Sir Brucey,

"Gopher with the Behren Mind"

Could you enlighten us as to who would this gopher be?

Mark

[Archive]

Posted By: bruce Dorskind

Mr. Behrens


Our income is self generated. The fact that we were
intelligent enough to leverage the connections we made
at Ivy League colleges and continue to grow our business
around said connections is a tribute to creativity
and 100 hour work weeks...not being a spoiled rich kid

When it comes to seeking the approval of others,
as you and anyone who can read can see.." frankly we don't
give a damm."

Would be happy to debate you on any issue which
demonstrates both the history of the hobby and/or
the history of early baseball

Will concede to you any issue which addresses the
ability to acqure bent cards, cards with stains and
cards with creases. Clearly you own that market.

[Archive]

Posted By: Dave

I haven't got involved at all in this thread..but that last statement was one in a million....that fact that you are now throwing around your "Ivy League" school background and 100 hour workweeks in order to obtain high dollar cards is supposed to impress who? Mr. Behrens? I'm gonna assume for the most part your doing nothing more but alienating yourself from even more board members here. By the way...I'll take my state university degree and forty hour work weeks along with time with my family and "bent" cards all day long.

Edited to say....from Bruce's last post, it is damn, not dam...(Ivy League school?)

[Archive]

Posted By: ErlandStevens

Bruce

In your extensive discussions and interviews with past great collectors and heads of gum and card companies, what kind of attitude did they show you? I would guess that they did not interact with you in the same manner that you interact with the people on this board.

There is one thing that I do like about your posts - the way your text wraps early on the screen. Is there some special setting that you use, or do you just place break tags throughout your posts?

Erland

[Archive]

Posted By: Jason L

broken glass. that's about it.
this Board at times, I think, resembles a Kindergarten playground.
Be able to laugh at yourself, gentlemen, and I think you will find more friends...
Jason L
America's Easiest Wantlist

[Archive]

Posted By: PC

"We" sounds like one of those kids who lost all his cards flipping in the school yard many years ago.

[Archive]

Posted By: will

Maybe we can get PSA to grade all of us. Give us ID cards, which would allow us only attend specific shows or participate in auctions, based on our grade.
Will

[Archive]

Posted By: Jeff Drum

Yawn...........................................

[Archive]

Posted By: Rich Klein

Is not money -- although that helps.

What really makes a great collector is a passion for what he/she does. If a collector wants to be the leading John Olerud collector in the world (and there really is such a devoted collector), then that person is a great collector. The world of modern cards is so complex (trust me on this) that understanding what makes a great modern collector is much different than a great vintage collector.

When I managed a store -- I had a lady who would come in each week and buy 2 packs of 1988 Topps cards so she could build a set with her limited income. You know, in her way -- she was a great collector too, because she had immense pride when she finished her set and brought it into the store so we could congratulate her.

In vintage -- yes, of course, the better condition you collect in, the better your return will be -- but please don't knock the collector who just wants type cards and are happy with them in any condition. Many of those collectors produce the research that makes it easier to collect the higher end material.

Bruce, there is no doubt that you are passionate about the high end material you collect and thus you are a great collector as well. From everything I've seen Jim Crandall post on this board and on the PSA board he is definately proud of what he owns and hosts hobby parties and is passionate about his collecting. His selection to the PSA Hall of Fame was well earned.

Am I a great collector, NO -- but I have collected something far more precious to me over the years in the hobby -- which are friendships, relationships and knowledge. I've been very fortunate that I've been placed in a position to help the hobby over the years and hopefully I've done some good over the years.

Is it too much for everyone to step back -- and appreciate that greatness comes in many forms.

Rich

[Archive]

Posted By: mike

I think the "great collector" can be a person who either by oneself or causes through others to assemble a great collection. A person with tremendous knowledge is an expert to be consulted, but may not be necessarily a collector.

On the other hand, a "great collection?" I prefer to think of breadth and/or depth. A deep collection narrowly focused can be great. A lack of focus or a broad focus (type-card collecting?) can yield a great collection.

Sometimes I wonder whether the great collector assembling the great collection is happy doing so. When does the quest cease to be fun and turn to addiction?

[Archive]

Posted By: Frank Wakefield

That was well articulated, Rich. Greatness isn't just money, codition, knowledge, integrity, helpfulness and mentoring, nor vastness of the collection. It can be a bit of all of those things. Kinda like a great baseball player could be a pitcher, or an infielder, or an outfielder...

[Archive]

Posted By: Jay

BTW, I just wanted to mention that I think Frank is a great collector. He has a passion for what he collects and an incredible amount of knowledge about the faces and events behind the cards.

[Archive]

Posted By: Tom Boblitt

I see here. Probably even our own schizophrenic little lord Fauntleroy. I, like an earlier poster, don't see eye to eye much with Jay, but he's spot on in this argument. Theres tons of people here with more money than I and less money. It ain't about the money.....in the end, you can't take it with you anyway.....we're just the current caregivers of these little pictures of men (that one's for HRBaker....)

[Archive]

Posted By: Peter_Spaeth

There are many guys on this board with considerable wealth and outstanding educational credentials. Almost to a man, they comport themselves with dignity and humility, never looking down on others who happen to have less money but treating them as equals. It is too bad there seems to be a notable exception, because I am sure he (they?) has a lot of knowledge and experience to offer, but its value gets lost in the rhetoric and invective.

By the way, as a point of information, the founder of the Goudey Gum Company was born in the 1860s so if he was contacted in the 1970s it must have been via seance.

EDITED TO ADD LINK TO GOUDEY INFORMATION
http://www.goudey.org/Goudey/Gum/index.shtml

[Archive]

Posted By: Anonymous

Rich - Very well said!!

[Archive]

Posted By: JimCrandell

I have not read other answers here but I believe there are 3 aspects to it.

1)A great collector should have a great collection
2)A great collector should have a passion for what he collects
3)A great collector should be willing to share it with others

Jim

[Archive]

Posted By: greg

I quite enjoyed Rich's reply (as well as many of the others). I think he hit the nail on the head quite eloquently.

Great Collecting is all about the passion you have for your hobby, no matter how large or how small your collection is, or how much it is valued. Equally important to the "stuff" we gather (it is, after all, just "stuff" -you aren't taking it with you, no matter how self important it may seem to you) are the great friends you make along the way and all of the stories you can share.

I also enjoyed reading Bruce's comments. They're always quite entertaining, to say the least. I have to be honest, they certainly make me laugh and, for that, I thank you Bruce. You are certainly a character.

Just goes to show you that education and money can't buy you everything.

Greg

[Archive]

Posted By: E, Daniel

I think a great collector is someone whose sheer will to find and attain the things they would love to own - is greater than the melancholy of being unable to find, or successfully purchase (read outsniped ) those pieces. To keep going, that to me is what makes a truly great collector of anything - even if the material itself is considered banal or crap by others.


daniel

[Archive]

Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Thank you, Jay, for your kind words; and you're an exemplary collector, yourself.

E, Daniel's point is valid. It isn't an issue of what is collected, or how that material is viewed by others. At one time I collected "Inspected By" slips. Those little bits of paper that are packaged with products, or in the pockets of apparel. I had hundreds of them. As I think about it, I recall that #14 was a pretty good inspector. Anyway, I could look at a slip and generally tell you the country of origin, and have a good idea of the product. Nowdays I pitch the slips, but once in a while I hold one for a moment, just above the trashcan, and think of the old days. Maybe for a while there, I was a great collector of "Inspected By" slips. And some kid who has every Ken Griffey Jr. card, knows their numbers by heart, knows approximate print runs, back errors and all, well he'd be a great collector of KG Jr cards, even though that genre doesn't appeal to me. So it seems to me that someone with only 8s and above could be a great collector, if he has the passion, knowledge, and a mentoring spirit; and a fellow who collects only beater E cards could be great, too, with those additional qualities. It isn't about quantity or quality of the cards... (although whoever up there wisely opined that Mr. Mint isn't a great collector would be correct, 'cause he doesn't collect).

[Archive]

Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Hey Pete,

Thanks for that Goudey link. Paper drives and paper shortage I knew a bit about. I knew that hit card manufacturing, and that some ball cards out there were lost to paper drives. But the rationing of sugar was something that I'd not thought of in context with gum manufacturing. Being well aware of how rationing would affect a household, I'd not considered how it would affect the ability to manufacture bubble gum. Thanks for that link!!! Frank.

[Archive]

Posted By: Bob

I agree with a post way, way up there, too weary to search: you can have a brilliant collection and be a total ass and you do not qualify as a "great collector" in my book. There are collectors who have stupendous collections who are great collectors and some with dynamite collections who are total jerks and people I wouldn't want to waste one single minute of time with. A hobbyist with a great collection who will treat you without arrogance or elitist snobbery is a great collector. A guy with a beautiful collection of cards but the personality of Mike Tyson on crack is someone who will never be a great collector in my book, no matter what his cards look like.
I would also interject that a card which has a crease is not a pariah. If so called "great collectors" think so, they have no conception of either whats make a "great collector" or lack a firm grasp of reality. Try completing a set of truly rare cards without creases and then come back and tell me how you would never collect one with a crease.

[Archive]

Posted By: Peter Thomas

I think that there needs to be some area or areas of focus. An individual set, a team, a relative, a player, lefties ect. That said I don't see any correlation with the quality of the cards making something that otherwise would not be a collection a collection. A box of PSA 8's and 9's is not a collection. It may contain individual cards that we might covet, but it it not a collection. It is closer to a form of currency than a collection and as such has some vulnerbilities - remember tulip bulbs. That said I do like an 8 or 9 when I can get one and it fits my collection. Generally within a set group I like to have the set at about the same grade level. Although I have many cards I only have 4 complete sets.

T204 Ramly which ranges from 5 to 8 with (1) 9. It took completing 4 sets and some trading with Scott B to get my set to this level and I would never get into something like that again.

E93's Is now an Ex set with (1) 4 and (1) 6. At one time I had a compete set with cards that ranged from 9 to 3. Jim B (who already had the nicest set around contacted me and with worked out a trade of my high grade cards for his corresponding cards and some money, I filled in a few 3's and 4's with 5's and am very happy with the set as I think is Jim with his, also made a friend along the way.

E103's I accquired about 70 raw cards over 10 years and put together the best set that I could which ranges from 2 to 5 it is a vge set with a Wagner 5. About a year ago after trying to upgrade with 2 for 1 trades had no sucess, I offered the dup cards cards to the board and sold them all. I think Alan got some upgrades and Brian almost completed his set. If I ran into a Tenny I would get it for him.

49 Leaf's - First cards I collected as a 7 year old kid still have about 60 of the cards that I got as a kid. Competed set as unfinished childhood task and as a child it was one hell of a task. Ask Ted.

Now I am still working on Ramly set, but would not pull a $6,000 trigger to upgrade a 7 to an 8 in last Mastro auction. I still have 12 5's to upgrade but 6 of the cards do not have any graded higher so I will not get much further. Looking for E103 upgrades, but only got 1 in the last year. Have 1 E93 to upgrade to a 5 from a 4, but am waiting to discuss crossing over this "floating" set to SGC before buying more cards.

This is what I think collecting is, if I was hung up on 8's I could not collect a Ramly set and would have 20 8's and 1 9. I would not be able to have any E103's. I probably could not complete an E93 set even if I had unlimited funds. I could complete a 49 Leaf set if I was willing to sell my home. Now I am messing with PCL, because it is someting that I can mess with. What will come of it? I don't know - have just started the journey.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jay

As a junior in high school I am able to collect decent crease free T206s that I am happy with. To be a great collector you have to be happy with what you have purchased. If you buy cards to try to impress other people then you are in the wrong hobby.

While a larger wallet would allow me to buy T206s that are PSA 8 instead of PSA 3 or 4 I still have a passion and desire to attain as much knowledge about T206s and as many cards as I can afford on my budget. Am I able to buy multiple lots in a Mastro or high end auctions, no but I am happy with whatever I can find at a good price at shows or online.

My best baseball coach once said that you should strive to be a student of the game. The best collector would be a "student of collecting," a person who learns and is willing to share his knowledge with others.

This is just my two sense, because this whole debate is pointless because to each person his collection might be the greatest, but might mean nothing to someone else.

[Archive]

Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Young Jay there has the makings of a great collector. Stay the course, keep picking up a card or two, when you start chasing girls don't completely abandon your cards, don't let Mom pitch them when you go to college.... If you're about 13 years of age, if you have 20 T206s now, if you pick up another 25 each year here on out, it will take you another 20 years to make it to 520 in T206, a real nice place to be. You'd be 33. And you'll be 33 then if you don't collect another card ever. I suspect most everyone here would have liked to have had 520 T206s at age 33. I'm sitting here thinking I wish I'd drank half as much beer, and spent half of the savings on cards...

Thanks for posting, Jay.

[Archive]

Posted By: Shanon

I am quickly learning about the wide variety of collectors and personalities on this board. I think anyone who takes HEART in thier cards and is an honest person to deal with is what makes a great collector. I am as proud of my T-206 PSA 1 Cobb and my PSA 3 Red Heart Musial as some people are of their PSA 8's and 9's. A couple of weeks ago my daughters 5th grade class did a school project on New York City. One of the projects was about baseball in the big apple, so I took in some of my Mantle and Brooklyn Dodger cards. Those kids loved them and so did a few Dads that had never seen an authentic 58' Mantle or 33' Gehrig before. That day was the reason I love to collect, and also made me realize how much I miss dealing and talking to real people at shows vs. winning auctions on ebay. So be proud of what you have, be respectful of others collections and put some heart into what you are buying, selling, and trading.

[Archive]

Posted By: Rob NYC

I always thought it was originality and creativeness that was so unique it would attract public attention should it be known that such a collection exists. Do museums count as 'great collectors'?

[Archive]

Posted By: peter chao

Rob, Jay and the Guys

Museums don't count, in general museum collections are for the public good.

A great collection exists solely to make the individual collector happy.

That's why I think that Jay's explanation above is worldly wise for somebody who is still in high school.

Peter

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

From our resident high school junior, Jay, right above:

"My best baseball coach once said that you should strive to be a student of the game. The best collector would be a "student of collecting," a person who learns and is willing to share his knowledge with others."


I couldn't agree more ....

[Archive]

Posted By: barry arnold

Peter,
concern for the public or common good and being happy about one's individual collection don't have to be mutually exclusive.

great to see Aristotle's students on the board periodically.

all the best,

Barry

[Archive]

Posted By: Cobby33

Humility and respect for others.