Lelands/Clemente family problems

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Posted By: Larry

There are few things that actually create a sense of irratation of this magnitude in our hobby..this is one of them..

There is no way this is sports memorabilia, this is a tragic event that is being glorified by a company that I had tremendous respect for, especially since they are directly across the street from one of my stores...I sincerely hope that Lelands pulls this item from their auction out of respect and integrity, we all must look into our concience and as Barry Sloate stated, we would not want our family tragedies to be sold as historical collectibles...Does anybody really want Ed Delehanty's mangled body for their pre 1910 collection?..I hope not...I very rarely write on this message board, I just respect those that care about humanity and this IS important..Josh..Please pull that listing for the Clemente family...

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Posted By: scgaynor

Dan, I have no financial interest in this piece at all. I didn't even know that Lelands was selling it until I saw this post.

I am simply playing devils advocate and trying to explain that just because some people find these pieces to be evil, does not mean that others will not appreciate them. About 60% of my business is autographs, but I have no interest in having an autographed item in my personal collection. Running an auction is not about selling items that only appeal to the owner of the auction house, it is about offering interesting and unique items to the customers.

I was not in any way trying to put down cards either. They are how I got started collecting and the staple of the sports memorabilia hobby / business. The truely rare cards are the items that I still get excited about selling. One of the reasons that I visit this forum is because I like seeing what other people have recently added to their collections.

I also agree with your assesment of todays kids. That is why I don't watch Reality TV and I take my son out to play Baseball, Tennis, Frisbee, or something else every nice day after work.

Scott

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Posted By: Dan Koteles

I really wouldn't have expected anything less of a person then your claim...


but I did think in a harmless way that you deserved a small poke shot...sorta a tooth for tooth hit.

This is about his family .Their feelings should matter on this dealing.

I know you care about the hobby , you have a great service as well !

Dan

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Posted By: John

Is this morbid? Yes it is. Is this something I would buy? No probably not. Is it wrong to sell hell no.

This is no different than many mainstream forms of collecting. I’ll name a few below and you tell me how it’s different or less offensive.

Military Collectibles: How many medals are sold every day, many of these very medals were given posthumously. Uniforms how many of these uniforms belonged to loved children who watched as there buddies were mowed down in battle.

I myself have a large collection of antique swords. Many of my Scottish claymores weren’t used to carve Thanksgiving turkeys they killed people. Every old gun, sword etc has a morbid past of some sort.

Example: The “Enola Gay” is on display at one of the National Air & Space hangars in VA. This very plane killed around 1.4 million people when it delivered the atomic bomb over Hiroshima. Should it not be displayed because it offends Japanese people?


Historical Documents & Collectibles: I recently saw a group of correspondences of Adolph Hitler’s on the auction block. Are there no Jew’s alive that remember the holocaust? Should I not own or ever sell my German Tobacco Propaganda cards (below) because I might offend Jews? How many Titanic collectibles are sold? If you found a second copy of a Zapruder film detailing the Kennedy assignation would you not sell it? Al Capone letters must really put you people over the edge huh?


Take a look at a few of the items in this Auction.
http://www.juliaauctions.com/firearms/jp/hi.html

Battle of Little Bighorn Gun (No people died there huh?) Nazi SS Uniform (Should be a big hit at the next bahmitzva I go too) Dutch Schultz’s own handgun (The only non-violent gangster in history I guess)

Antiquities: How many devices of torture are on display in the Tower Of London and museum’s around the world. If you stumbled upon a piece of Aztec sacrificial art that was worth millions would you not sell it, because of the innocent people who were sacrificed? How many religious artifacts from the crusades are around and sold everyday?


I could go on and on.

I understand the sensitive nature of the Clemente item. However

This is like freedom of speech if you have freedom of speech you have to give racists & idiots the right to talk out as much as we have the right to speak out. You can’t censor things because you don’t like them; unfortunately selling of a piece of a crashed plane is no different than any of the above items being sold or for sale in my mind. But maybe I’m just crazy.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Just woke up and missed a good deal of this thread. Not only has Leland's used poor judgment but I have to also say I am disappointed with Scott Gaynor's response. Scott, I've always respected you and I know how hard you have worked to build your terrific business on ebay. But you are just way off base on this one. You said in so many words who is to say what a collector might appreciate, suggesting that if there is someone who might find the pieces of the plane interesting, then that makes it O.K. This discussion is not about the desirability of an artifact; it's about how the Clemente family feels about it. I'm sure there are many people who would like to own a piece of the World Trade Center. Put a piece of that in an auction and see how the 2700 families of the victims feel about it. We are not talking about the Clemente family complaining about the sale of a uniform or a signed contract because they aren't getting their cut. We're talking about a piece of a plane in which Clemente lost his life. There are some things that are taboo and this is one of them. It's all about the family, it's not about the collector.

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Posted By: barrysloate

The Associated Press reports this morning that the Clemente family has decided to take legal actions to prevent the sale of the plane. Roberto Clemente Jr said the family "will not tolerate anyone trying to benefit from my father's passing."

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Posted By: scgaynor

Barry, thanks for your comments, it looks like we just have a different opinion. We have had a number of conversations abou the hobby and have pretty much always been on the same page in the past. I think that your opinion based more in emotion and he feelings of the family, and mine is based in the mind of a collector.

I think that the response of the Clemente family says it all. First they seem to think that the sale of these items are more of a joke and that they are being sold to get a laugh. The last comment tells me that they are upset that somebody is making money off of the items. I think that is what most people are upset about. Not the sale of the item itself, but that somebody is making money off of the tragedy. I wonder if they would be so upset if somebody just gave the stuff away.

The last that I heard, it was illegal to sell piece of the World Trade Center because it was considered part of a crime scene. I don't know if that is still the case though.

Scott

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Posted By: barrysloate

Well Scott, I guess we agree that we disagree. I can't go any further with this. My guess is the family is hurt a lot more than that. Obviously, we don't know, we can only assume. Let's see how it all unfolds over the next few days.

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Posted By: Ryan Christoff

I've been trying not to post, but finally caved in. I know the consignor (I don't know if he consigned this stuff or sold it directly to Leland's) and was offered these items one time when I was at his house in Puerto Rico. They were literally just lying around his house. Chunk of the Clemente plane here, chunk of the Clemente plane there...

He had several different pieces. The stuff in the Leland's auction are not all of the pieces he had in his house.

There are a number of hard-to-believe stories about this guy and the things he's done to get his hands on valuable collectibles. If you like the Clemente plane chunks, you might be interested in this: Many people have not heard of Francisco Coimbre, but he and Perucho Cepeda (Orlando's father) are widely considered the greatest Puerto Rican players of the pre-Clemente era. Coimbre lived to be an old man and ultimately died in a fire. For the right price you can also own several burned and melted items from the Coimbre fire. They are currently hanging on this guy's wall. A burnt piece of metal, a melted notary stamp, some damaged buttons, some charred keys. All in a display with a few pictures of Coimbre and even a couple of his cards! I have a picture of it somewhere that I'll try to post later. This would make a great addition to any "How'd They Die?" Puerto Rican baseball collection. Just think, if Ivan Rodriguez dies in a car wreck you might be able to hang a mangled bumper on the wall next to Clemente's propellor and Coimbre's keys. The collecting opportunities are endless as long as players continue to die tragically.

Oh, and if you're a Clemente fan but find the plane pieces to be...not within the scope of your collecting, for $20,000 you can own the front door to the house he used to live in. No joke. This guy actually went to Clemente's old house and bought the front door from the people living there. They were not related to Clemente. I'll post some pics of the door if I can find them.

-Ryan

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Posted By: hrbaker

This story is getting a lot of play on sports talk radio here in Atlanta this morning. Most of the press is negative.

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Posted By: John

Barry & Others;

I’m not trying to beat you up and I respect your opinions very much. I’m just trying to understand yours and some of the other folks thinking here.

“It's all about the family, it's not about the collector.”

“There are no survivors of the Titanic; all Clemente's children and his wife are still alive. Big, big, difference”

So are you saying that as long as no one is alive to be offended by the items it’s ok to profit from death and morbid curiosity? But its not ok if you going to hurt someone’s feelings in the process.

I just see it as either you have a moral issue with profiting from anyone’s misfortune or death or you don’t period. Timing and feelings shouldn’t be a changing factor in your moral beliefs.

To me that’s like saying I only steal small things like candy bars and soda’s I would never steal a car. You either have a problem with stealing or you don’t little things or not your still a thief if you steal.

Scott brought another good point would the family be up in arms if the piece was donated to Cooperstown. Or are they angry that someone is profiting from their misfortune?

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Posted By: Dan Koteles

what is so historic about these pieces to be in Cooperstown?

I sure hope that the undershorts that Dillinger crapped in when he died arent up for grabs....I guess that there are many different morals of collecting .It certainly may tell of ones proper upbringing!

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Posted By: leon

If the Clemente family were asked about this prior to the sale, and gave their approval, then I wouldn't have as much issue. I would leave it up to them. If the pieces were sold and the monies donated to charity (which Roberto obviously felt strongly about) then maybe that would be ok with them, don't know for sure though. I don't doubt there will be a lot of interest in these items but I have to go back to the Clemente families feelings on the matter.....once that's cleared, and they are ok with it, then so be
it.....just my opinion......regards all

edited to add- John, yes it is all about the Clemente families feelings, imo....

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Posted By: barrysloate

John- You made an interesting point and I don't think there is a right or wrong answer, since I think this whole issue falls under the umbrella of what is the ethical thing to do. As far as capitalizing on the death of someone, it's probably never an ethically sound policy. But if you sold an artifact belonging to Attila the Hun, who was a ruthless killer, it's safe to say that something that occurred in the 5th century is less likely to offend than something that occurred in 1972.
When Jackie Kennedy passed away she left some confidential information about her past (and President Kennedy's, for that matter) that was to remain a guarded secret until the death of her children. Similarly, until Mark Felt stepped forward last week, the identity of "Deep Throat" would have been unknown until he too died. There is something about waiting for the immediate family to pass that changes the dynamics of an event. Lincoln's assassination was a national tragedy but his children and grandchildren and great-grandchildren have all died, so the issue is a little more tied up in history than say the tragedy of 9/11, which is still an open wound for everyone. Never great to make a buck off of someone else's misery, but I think time is an important factor and now is not the time to sell the Clemente plane with his wife and children still alive. A hundred years from now, still not classy but a different story.

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Posted By: John

Dan;

I hope you weren’t taking a shot at my upbringing.

There is no reason for the pieces to be in Copperstown. My point was a question that Scott brought up. Would the family of Clemente have an issue with the pieces if no profit was being made, and they were donated to a museum of some type?

Not to long ago some pieces of James Dean’s Porsche 550 Spyder he died in were sold. To me this is no different. Lets also make one thing clear I’m not saying I agree with or that I find the items even remotely interesting, because I don’t.

I just have a more black & white view of this issue. There are hundreds of collecting genres, which many people could find offensive (veterans, holocaust survivors, Native Americans, African Americans etc.) on personal or moral levels. The last I checked the T203 baseball comics weren’t too politically correct.

And Leon I understand your point. My point is if we have to take everyone’s feelings into consideration when it comes to historical items of any kind. We wouldn’t be able to display, purchase or learn about many historic events. Its sad sometimes it has to take an ugly face, but if you don’t allow Leland’s to sell this. Then by the same token you shouldn’t allow other major auction houses to sell many of the items I posted above which they do on a routine basis.

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Posted By: John

Barry;

You make a very good point. And for the most part I agree with you on this. It’s funny how society has changed. Today we are more plugged into death and destruction than ever before. But in many ways we are so removed from it as well. Today we say that we have crossed the lines when something like Clemente’s plane parts are up for sale.


You brought up Lincoln; during the 19th century it wasn’t uncommon to sell locks of hair of famous people Lincoln included. In fact many people wore hair of a loved one or famous person in a morning broach a type of jewelry, which they publicly displayed with pride.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=409&item=6183869577&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

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Posted By: leon

We probably feel pretty much the same way on this. ALL I am talking about is the families feelings.....my wife calls me a "soft heart". What can I say? And yes, it might make a difference to them if the proceeds were donated to charity as it would have been Roberto's wishes, most likely. After the family is taken into account I don't have as much issue with this scenario. You know what they say...."funerals are really for the living". In this matter I am only concerned with the family going through anymore pain..regards

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Posted By: John

Leon;

I hear you. You big softie. I know what you mean I’m Scotch/Irish the best party I will ever be thrown will be my funeral to bad I’m not going to be able to enjoy it.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Yes John, but selling a lock of Lincoln's hair would not have been as offensive as selling the bullet that killed him. After all, he didn't die from a haircut.
Pieces from James Dean's car are equally tacky (this September 30th is the fiftieth anniversary of his death, for those who are counting) but Dean had no children and I don't know if any of his immediate family are still alive. Again, each issue has to be looked at independently.

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Posted By: John

Good point Barry, however Oliver Stone has a new movie coming out which un covers a government cover up that Lincoln did die from a bad haircut. And that Booth was framed.


Speaking of reality TV. How many police or law enforcement widows are sickened each time they flip pass “Growing Up Gotti” on TV. While she lives in the lap of luxury from dirty crooked money on national TV, while they are trying to survive on a pension or life insurance payout.

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Posted By: Jim Hoffman

This isn't the same as selling a piece of Jackie Kennedy's estate. Those items weren't associated with her death. The Clemente wreckage is unique in that it is a tangible piece of material that is tied directly with his death. I'm not at all opposed to selling Clemente's autographs or game used equipment or even mementos from his life, but this plane wreckage is completely different.

The fact that he died prematurely, and on a heroic, humanitarian mission makes these auction lots completely sacred, and they should never be sold.

I can't even imagine anything else that could compare to the wrongness of this sale. Even those who sold WTC photos and books, etc. after 9/11, those people weren't selling actual wreckage or office equipment, etc.

I suspect the person who brought up Dale Earnhardt's steering wheel probably came the closest in describing the absurdity of the sale.

Maybe it might compare to slavery leg-irons or pieces from Nazi concentration camps.

Several months ago I noticed an auction with at least one lot of artwork from John Wayne Gacy, the Chicago mass-murderer. I don't remember the auction house, but that lot also left me aghast.

Those who trade in this ghoulishness are nothing short of grave robbers, and deserve their names and reputations to be dragged through the mud.

Just like the despicable Joshua Evans.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Jim Hoffman is right on the money. Does anyone see an ethical difference between selling the gun that Booth used to kill Lincoln or selling the gun that Mark David Chapman used to kill John Lennon? With Yoko, Julian, and Sean still alive, isn't there a distinction between the two events?

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Posted By: Adam J. Moraine

Hey Guys (and Julie),

73 posts now, and STILL no response from Josh Evans. How cowardly from someone who is "SUPPOSELY" a "RESPECTED LEADER, AND AUTHORITY" of our great hobby! Be a man, and face the music Josh because YOU have A LOT of explaining to do.

Best regards,

Adam J. Moraine

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Posted By: John

Yes I see a difference timing that’s all. I brought up the Enola Gay for a reason, not to long ago a group of Japanese wanted to have the plane removed from display and dismantled. They found it morbid and dis-respectful to Japanese people. They found it to bring back to many (rightfully so) horrific memories.

So what are we to do wait until all people who were alive and can remember WW2 are dead? Then wait until even more time passes so that direct descendants of those veterans are dead as well, before we display an import piece of history.

History is history gentleman good, bad and sometimes even ugly and sickening. How many churches in the world have relics (body parts) of saints or claim to have a piece of the cross. If there really was a piece of the cross would you be as disgusted or would you want to see it?

“Those who trade in this ghoulishness are nothing short of grave robbers, and deserve their names and reputations to be dragged through the mud.”

Jim give it a few years and what you call grave robbing becomes Archeology. And its still grave robbing no matter how you dice it.



So you guys are ok with grave robbing, murder weapons, items of historic tragedy just as long as no one gets their feelings hurt or is alive that could be offended.

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Posted By: barrysloate

If the family is pursuing legal action, it may be judicious for him to remain silent.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Boy, that King Tut gold mask would sure look good on my mantelpiece. Is it for sale? Truth is, people will continue to capitalize on other's misery as long as there is a buck in it for them. It's up to each and every buyer and seller to make his own moral decision. There's no easy answer to this.

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Posted By: John

Barry its for sale but I have to honest with you I think its been trimmed.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Trimmed or not, it sure is shiny. I might go as high as $750 for it, but that's my best offer.

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Posted By: Jim Hoffman

John, I appreciate your point of view. I don't have anything to counter the King Tut stuff. I don't feel any reverence toward the Tut relics. Someone else might be disturbed by the trade of those items, but that's not my issue. I CAN see how people might look at the Enola Gay with some strong emotions either way, including how they might be disturbed that the plane is "celebrated".

I agree that history is history. But that doesn't mean that every historic fragment needs to be brought to the open market. There are some things in the world that need not have a price tag, or an 18 percent buyers premium.

Joshua Evans cannot have a free pass on this.

If there was a hotel that knowingly rented space to the KKK or the Aryan Nation, shouldn't they be called on the carpet?

If a travel agency was selling travel packages for men to travel to Thailand to have unsavory relations with children, shouldn't they be called on it?

Would you buy products from a company that you knew was violating even the most basic pollution standards?

Would you buy products that you knew were made by sweatshop employees?

I have never met anyone from the Clemente family. I never even saw Clemente play. But the fact that some anonymous person is selling airplane wreckage, with Josh Evans' blessing is wrong.

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Posted By: Peter_Spaeth

I can't precisely define the line, but I know when something is on the wrong side of it. Particularly now that the family has expressed their revulsion, the item should be pulled, and anyone who has bid on it or is considering bidding on it should examine their conscience.

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Posted By: John

Jim I appreciate your point of view as well. The Tut stuff was not meant to be countered just pointing out how time can change point of views on basically the same thing.

Trust me I think the sale of these things is silly too, but no more silly or offensive than a Nazi SS uniform, military Medal of Honor or James Deans crashed car parts.

”If there was a hotel that knowingly rented space to the KKK or the Aryan Nation, shouldn't they be called on the carpet?”

No, unfortunately freedom of speech includes idiots and racists too, and even they have a right to crappy hotel food and overpriced drinks.

”If a travel agency was selling travel packages for men to travel to Thailand to have unsavory relations with children, shouldn't they be called on it?”

Illegal, and not even in the same league of what we are talking about.

”Would you buy products from a company that you knew was violating even the most basic pollution standards?”

No probably not, but again historic items not new manufactured products.

”Would you buy products that you knew were made by sweatshop employees?”

I do already (PSA graded cards). (Rimshot)

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Posted By: identify7

The current thinking is that it is fashionable to take offense at almost anything. I do not see how purchasing a part of the plane that Clemente died in can be construed as anything other than a tribute to a good man who was called by the Maker while in the process of a chaitable act.

It may allow the purchaser to feel a little closer to this goodness.

Although I personally would turn down an offer for a free piece of the wreckage, because it seems somehow inappropriate to me, I can understand others feeling differently. But I do not understand Clemente's family feeling negatively regarding this continued recognition.

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Posted By: john/z28jd

Gil i dont get offended easy but this is obviously people making money off a tragedy that has a recognized name attached to it. Im not offended by it but if someone came to me and asked me if i wanted it for free i wouldnt hesitate to say no and id wonder what was mentally wrong with them to think that i would want it.If the sale was for charity i could understand it but i still wouldnt know who would want it.Ive never heard of someone famous dying and said to myself,i gotta have that jacket they were wearing when they died.


I can clearly see how thats offensive to a close family member as well as fans who followed him.Even if the family themselves were selling it,that wouldnt make it morally right and i would think less of them for doing it.Its in very poor taste as are some of the other things John mentioned.Just because theyve been auctioned off in the past doesnt make them right either.

How someone could agree with it being historic enough to be collected and agree that its not in poor taste,i dont understand their thinking.

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Posted By: DJ

Leon,

...crossed the line of what the board allows for anonymous posts. Leon, I don't think I said anything that has crossed the line? Either way, I'll contact you shortly.

http://www.lelands.com/bid.aspx?lot=139&auction=505

$500 and one bid.

DJ

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Posted By: Julie

repeatedly ran an ad saying "Mrs. Gehrig would have called US." I cringed every time I saw it.

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Posted By: John

I wonder if we will ever have this discussion in our lifetime?

Fictional Network 54 Poster:

I cant believe this did you guys see what Leland’s has in their auction check out item #2433 who would want to own such a thing? And look at the bids.

#2433 Holy Grail

Yes this is it after thousands of yrs of searching it is available, from a private collection of retired Free Mason. The cup is small and has minor wear; this does not take away from the overall appearance of the cup. The cup is PSA graded authentic. A must have for all you religious people. Now’s your chance to obtain arguably the nicest Holy Grail in existence as well as Everlasting Life/Eternity.



Est. Upon Request.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

I can understand the Japanese being offended by the Enola Gay on display, but if not for the Enola Gay/Atomic bomb many more Japanese would have been killed in the inevitable invasion that would have taken place than were killed at Hiroshima and Nagasaki. And it's not like the US is showcasing the Enola Gay in downtown Tokyo.

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Posted By: Sean Coe

I believe Lelands was the auction house that ran the Mrs. Gehrig ads.

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

it would be best to cut up the holy grail and make like 200-250 grail refractor or atomic refractor cards so it could be scattered to the ends of the earth like that $250K Babe Ruth jersey. These would be really hot items.

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Posted By: Scott M

Regarding the post about certain groups staying at hotels.....yes they can stay there and I can choose to boycott that hotel. Freedom of expression/speech runs both ways.

I have purchased items from this auction house in the past (every now and then), and can say that I will not be purchasing again. Period, irregardless of finds, price, etc. I collect pieces of cardboard and quite simply there are more important things in the world....

Just because someone somewhere might not object to something doesn't mean that the vast majority shouldn't say its not right, and follow through on their words with actions....in this case simply boycott the business in question.

Not everything in life is a "gray" area or "up to interpretation".

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

I think some businesses don't realize that not all business is good business. There is a printing company in Lincoln that prints up neo-nazi pamphlets for a local lunatic. I choose to not do business with that printing company. They have every right to accept that business, and I have every right to go elsewhere. I am not saying that this is comparable to what Leland's is doing, but I find it distasteful, and it's obviously hurtful to the Clemente family.

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Posted By: Julie

The KKK planned to march in Skokie, Illinois. They were turned down (by the mayor? The governor? Can't remember). They took whoever it was to court, and with the help of the ACLU, they won (forbidding them, it was decided, would be a violation of their right to freedom of speech). No hoods, no Nazi armbands, no goose-stepping, no KKK flags.

The funny thing was, apparently, the KKK didn't know that Skokie was composed largely of Jews. When they found out, even though they had legally won the right to march there, they decided they'd have better luck marching somewhere else, and changed their venue.

A movie--probably only a TV movie--was made of the whole incident, with Danny Kaye playing a citizen of Skokie who couldn't make up his mind--he was very good (his last role, I think).

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Posted By: John

Dan;

You’re right not all business is good business. But lots of items of the same type of thread are sold by many auction houses, maybe not all baseball related. I think its where you as a person feel comfortable drawing the line (offensive/not offensive). But if items of a historic morbid nature such as the Clemente items touch a nerve with you guys. You may find your list of auction houses your planning to boycott growing much larger than just Leland’s.

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Posted By: ScottM

Well, I don't spend tons of time looking at auctions but I must say this is the first auction that has reached this level of bad taste. And even if every auction house were doing it, that doesn't change the fact that its just plain wrong.

I'd rather have my conscience than a piece of cardboard.

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Posted By: Tim Mayer

Dan, you did the right thing on that printing job...

the bottomline is Josh Evans choose to put the piece in his auction...he made the decision, now he lives with it...

i would like to hear his thoughts,,,he was quick to comment on the Joe Di maggio glove,....id like to hear his thinking on this...

i couple of years ago, I bought a box of old cards,,In it were some Bulgarian and German cards that had Hitler and other Nazi war figures.

I didn't put them on my table because it would offend many people. I knew a customer who collected these type of cards, I saves them for him, and added them into another deal i was working with him.

Could I have put them out and made more money, sure! Would I offended people and lost customers in the long run,,definately. I think I made the right choice. I think Leland's choose the money route...great,,,,maybe it won't hurt them in the long run..I personally wouldn't have done it.

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Posted By: John_B_California

The memorabilia business is getting horrible publicity from this auction. The story is everywhere (CNN, NY Times, USA Today, MSNBC). Sure, Lelands might make a few bucks on the consignments. But in the long run, these kinds of sales only hurt the image of the industry. Does Lelands really want to be associated with this kind of controversy?

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Posted By: John

Tim;

That seems silly to me but too each his own.

I don’t think by putting the non-sports cards picturing Nazi’s or Hitler out for sale for that matter would have cost you business. Nazi’s and Hitler for that matter are part of history. If you had a complete Horrors of War set would you hide it behind a curtain?

How about T203 baseball comics showing that "A Fowl Bawl" a stereotypical image of a Negro crying after he gets caught stealing chickens. Or how about a N300 Anson a noted racist and outspoken advocator of segregated baseball.

I think you are over thinking peoples reaction to such goods. Now if you were goose-stepping around your table in your Nazi uniform working deals on the cards well……………

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Posted By: Tim Mayer

John,

I guess I am silly, who knows? I made the choice,,,and the rest is history. I think anything politically incorrect, or that might offend have no place in an auction or card show...

I know lots and lots of people disagree, and i am cool with that also...

as for the fowl ball cards, i wouldn't put them out either...


i had some old trade cards that were obviously very offensive,, like Washington Irving Melon cards and the such...they are just bad news in my opinion..and they were not sold...

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Posted By: Julie

listed for $400.

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Posted By: John

Dan;

It was me that brought up the fact that Anson was racist. My point was not about Anson but making the point that you made that auction houses selling goods is not an endorsement of death, genocide or any other nasty thing you can think of. They are just selling items of historic value and sometimes that history isn’t pretty.

I however respect the opinions of someone who thinks an item is ugly and refuses to do business with the person who is selling it because of their beliefs on the matter. My only question is where do you draw the line, and to point out that auction houses sell other non-baseball related items which are just as un savory. So before they shun Leland’s look at the big picture. I don’t think there whining (as you do) just obviously very passionate about their feelings on the Clemente objects.

“For those of you whom keep bringing up the Anson, Cobb, etc were racist topic, there were a lot of people in those days that were racist, there still are, the fact remains that it is an ugly part of society and most, if not all people whom hate, were taught to be that way. It does not make it right, but it is all that they know. Do you have any proof about the Anson and Cobb topics anyway? No, nothing more than hearsay. Let the issue rest.”

As far as most people being racist during those days, just because most people were as you say there were many who were not. It is however a historical fact not hearsay that Anson was racist and refused to even be on the field with another black ball player, such as Moses Fleetwood Walker for example. It is also commonly thought that Anson used his power and influence to keep blacks out of the game until 1947.But if your looking for a picture of Anson at a KKK rally I guess I don’t have the proof you need. As for Cobb who I didn't mention pretty sure he wasn’t a fan of blacks, I would say though Cobb was an equal opportunity racist he hated most everyone.