PSA discussion

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Posted By: PASJD

Has anyone done a comparison of the number of cards each of the big three grade a month?

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Posted By: Mike P.

Keep in mind that when this was listed on ebay and PSA was notified they immediately deleted the serial number so it's no longer in their database(at least not the public online one), I wish I took a screen shot of that.

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Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth

They did the same to my partner who bought a T206 Red Cobb PSA 7 in which the flip indicated it was the Ty Cobb back.

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Posted By: Josh K.

JIM C - just curious if the cards that were resubmitted, were sent by the dealer back to psa (indicating that he may also get some sort of preferential treatment as has been surmised).

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Posted By: Rick

business seems good at CU, if you add their other divisions (PCGS ,PSA/DNA etc)the numbers look even better.



"PSA Units

PSA units authenticated and graded grew by approximately 17% to 283,000 units in the quarter ended March 31, 2005, or 38% of the aggregate units authenticated and graded, from 242,000 in the same period in 2004. For the nine months ended March 31, 2005, PSA units increased by approximately 10% to 801,000, or 38% of the aggregate units authenticated and graded, from 730,000 units in the same nine months of the prior year."

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Posted By: JimCrandell

MikeP,

You think that is something I have a T206 PSA 9 Heinie Wagner(Bat on Right Shoulder) that is labeled Honus Wagner. Now this has got to show incredible ignorance and/or carelessness on the part of PSA to take a PSA 9 card of Heinie Wagner and label it Honus Wagner--imagine, a PSA 9 card of the most famous card in history.

JoshK,

This dealer got back my 500 or so submissions and couldn't believe all the 7s I got. So he went through them all--picked out about 85, broke them out and resubmitted. To my shock, a number of psa 5s turned into 8s, 6s turned into 8s and 7s turned into 9s. In total about 85% went up in grade.

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Posted By: WP

Jim,
With experiences like that how do you continue to have faith in their product?

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Posted By: JimCrandell

WP,

I don't but I am kind of in a box.

PSA cards have the highest resale value for most of the post-war sets I collect(not necessarily true in pre-war).
I am trying to complete sets in nrmt-mt or better. It is impossible to find the graded cards of SGC or GAI that I need.
There would likely be some cost of conversion although if enough of my PSA 8s cross to GAI 8.5s or SGC 92s this could be offset.
The number of slabbed cards I have make a full-scale conversion problematic.
I have though stopped giving PSA my raw sets.

Dav

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Posted By: Tom Papa

"Jim,
With experiences like that how do you continue to have faith in their product?"



Correct me if I'm wrong Jim but I'd say you don't have faith in their product anymore and haven't for a long time. But since your collecting goal has been 100 vintage sets in PSA 8 or better condition you have to stay with the grading company that has the cards in the holders ....correct?

Why not collect the cards ....and not worry about the holders Jim? How 'bout a revised goal of 100 vintage sets in NMMT condition? That way you can put the nightmare that is PSA behind you.

I just want to see you happy. Seriously.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Tom,

I am the happiest guy in the world.

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Posted By: Tom Papa

edited ....by me

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Posted By: JimCrandell

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Tom,

In response, first I like the competitiveness of the Set Registry. Second, I do not consider myself an expert in judging if a card has been tampered with. So I like the idea of having the cards authenticated. Thirdly, I also like my cards nmt-mt and like to have an independent judge of that.

Jim

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Posted By: WP

Jim,
In response to your prior post. What percentage of cards that you own do you think will not cross to SGC or GAI if you choose to cross? The 92's would add alot of value but how would you feel if you find out that a substantial part of your collection is either overgraded or altered.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

WP,

As to what % of my cards would be GAI 8.5s or SGC 92s, Mike Baker came over my house and gave a ballpark estimate of 40-45% would be 8.5s.

He also said that GAI would be willing to set up shop for a week in my basemennt to grade them all GAI.

Dav

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Posted By: WP

What amount wouldn't grade 8 is what you should be concerned about. Surely they wouldnt just blindly cross your entire collection without examining the material.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Jim has some incredible sets in the registry (I know as I am behind him on just a very few of his), so I would second: a) his general happiness; and b) the reasons why he's sticking with PSA. I have a fraction of the graded sets that he has and once you're in the registry deep you're in the registry probably forever. While I would probably rather have my sets all in SGC (mostly due to the looks of the holder), the pain associated with crossing them over makes such a prospect impossible.

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Posted By: PASJD

I remember PSA a few years back would set up at a Tuesday night show in Parsippany NJ essentially because Solomon Cramer promised them a huge supply of cards to grade if they did, but setting up in someone's HOUSE is taking it to the next level for sure. On the one hand, I guess you can't beat that for customer service. On the other hand, something about it seems a little inappropriate.

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Posted By: will watson

in my initial post, i tried to make it clear i didn't see PSA as perfect. far from it. i know they make (often stupid) mistakes, and frankly, the way the deal with those mistakes often makes them look like idiots. as far as the registry goes, it's a genius marketing tool. has it helped PSA immensely? of course. does it make people pay insane prices for "low pop" cards? yep. that isn't PSA's fault. blame the collectors who pay these prices. remember- cards are worth whatever someone will pay for them. if a '54 Ben Wade PSA 8 regularly sells for over $2k, then that leads me to believe thats a true indicator of its real world value- regardless of the huge discrepancy from its raw price guide "book value."

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Posted By: will watson

Jim,

do you really think it's a good idea to publicly state that Mike Baker comes over and sets up shop in your basement? what kind of mickey mouse operation does GAI run? i don't think graders should have any contact whatsoever with submitters, especially coming over for morning coffee.

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Posted By: Scott Ingold

I agree with goodriddance...... How can M. Baker show up at your house for gradding purposes ? I have been using GAI for the part year or so do to the BS with PSA. But if this is true I might have to rethink this also.

I talk to Mike on occasion as well as Danny Fischer and think this is something i'd like to learn more about before sending more of my sets to them.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

WP,

What amount would not grade 8?--I hope very little. My guess would be 2% GAI 9. 40% GAI 8.5%, 57.9% GAI 8 and .1% less.

Of course thwey would look at every card carefully--it would take at least a week.

Jeff,

I agree that the odds are that I am in them forever--what sets are you on the registry in?

Scott and PASJD,

Nothing has happened or is even likely to happen. We are however talking about the potential conversion of over 20,000 PSA cards anjd I do have a big basement.

Dav

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Posted By: Todd Schultz

to the rest of us, or at least me, as to what to look for in getting all high-end 8s. After all, if you have over 20K graded PSA 8s and less than .1% would fall below GAI 8 (the equivalent of about 20 or so cards), you have by far a keener eye than anyone with whom I've shared collecting experiences.

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Posted By: PASJD

Only buy 8s that look like 9s to the naked eye -- perfect centering, razor sharp corners, no apparent defects -- and you should be OK.

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Posted By: Scott Forrest

In response to the following, considering how large your collection is and how many t206's you own, I'd be surprised if you weren't a much better judge of tampering than the guys at PSA. The "independent judge" that you seek (the god-like cheetoh munchers) does nothing but add re-sell value to your cards. You are buying a plastic value add-on, nothing more.

<<In response, first I like the competitiveness of the Set Registry. Second, I do not consider myself an expert in judging if a card has been tampered with. So I like the idea of having the cards authenticated. Thirdly, I also like my cards nmt-mt and like to have an independent judge of that.>>

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Todd,

I do not mean to represent that I have a sharper eye than anyone else.

What I meant to convey is that I don't think that GAI would mark many of my cards down. If they really felt they had to then I theoretically would pull it.

Dav

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Posted By: Todd Schultz

the cards are either nm/mt or they are not, whether graded by PSA, SGC, GAI or the members of this board. If the gripe is that PSA is inconsistent (a point with which I agree, BTW), then it seems to me that 20,000 graded 8s should show a lot of divergence if submitted to another company or to the collecting community at large. Yet by your remarks, only 2.1% would score outside the nm/mt grade at GAI. That to me suggests that you'd get basically the same result at GAI.

As for Will's inital post, I'll chime in with my two cents, which is basically nothing new.

1. SGC is not infallible--they have taken their shots on this board from time to time.
2. PSA has made some monumental gaffes, and no, the members here don't seem to miss many of them.
3. SGC is the preferred grading company here, although many don't put much or any stock in graded cards period.
4. The members here would probably not hesitate to buy a PSA card if they really wanted it, subject to #5 below, as this board truly seems to adhere to the buy the card not the holder philosophy, which is often at odds with the driving force behind the PSA set registry.
5. PSA's customer service and overall attitude is basically horse-hockey, and some will not do business with a company that treats them or their collecting friends so poorly.
6. There is a vibe generated here that may come across as superiority or condescension toward non-prewar collectors, that may in act be genuine or may be misunderstood by both sides. There is a bit of a "it's our sandbox, go play somewhere else" in that regard. Some take that more to heart than others, and I believe it's a function of what one collects. It is simply uninteresting to have a whole bunch of discussions about things that you do not not care and do not collect. Post-war questions in general and PSA set registry type questions tend to bring out some harsh sentiments that way.
As for PSA feelings about prewar cards, I dare say that their grading isn't criticized a whole lot more vigorously than SGC, except for their labeling goofs, which call into question their ability to grade in the first place. That should be fair game, IMO.

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Posted By: Howie

How does one glance at 20,000 cards and estimate that 40%-45% would receive 1/2 point or more upgrades if crossed over to a new service? If another service bid 50%-60% would it make them better? That shows an extreme amount of confidence in the quality and consistency they expect to find in their competitor's product. It also shows that a .5 increase in grade may not be all it's cracked out to be.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Well, they did grade most of my cards while they were at PSA.

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Posted By: PASJD

Jim, on the one hand, in a prior post, you appear to say PSA is the least reliable of the three grading services, very inaccurate, etc. etc. Yet by your own estimate GAI would agree that 97.9 percent of your PSA 8's are accurately graded -- 2 percent would grade higher and .1 percent or less would grade lower. That is an astonishing degree of accuracy for PSA, no? What am I missing here? Thanks in advance, PETER

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Posted By: Scott Forrest

I would add that contrary to the opinions of some PSA supporters, few people on this board would like to see PSA actually disappear - we would prefer that they respond to our feedback by offering a better overall product.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Scott,

Absolutely agree.

PASJD,

Do not consider 8.5s and 8s the same--believe substantial gap has and will open up.

I am only guessing on the 9s--also only guessing on the downgrades. Mike did tell me he thought 40% upgraded(to 8.5 or better) was a ballpark number.

Dav

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Posted By: will watson

Runscott,

i agree. the way PSA deals with their problems is laughable at best. that is my main criticism of them. but since i'm a small time collector, their problems haven't really affected me yet. if i had a collection the size of Jim's, i would probably be much more vocal with my criticism.

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Posted By: Chuck R

This whole thread makes me think back to those halcyon days of The Trader Speaks and Bill Mastro showing up at a convention with a Wagner in a grocery bag. 20,000 PSA cards? Wow...that's more money in grading than my collection is worth. With eBay and all the scammers, I guess we can't put the genie back in the bottle, but things sure have changed.

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Posted By: WP

Jim,
If only .01% of your cards would grade less than 8, then you are in great shape. I would not even consider changing services with accuracy like that. Unfortunately from what I have seen PSA's consistancy is no where near that level. You yourself pointed out the dramatic change in grades when you submitted you card through a "known" dealer. I would take a gues that 20-25% of high grade PSA cards are flawed in some way and would not be worthy of the holder they are in. Try giving GAI or SGC a set have them evaluate it and you will see. For a collector of your magnitude, I am sure they can give you ballpark results without cracking the slabs so their is minimal risk for you.

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Posted By: PASJD

Jim but you don't know how many of your PSA 8's PSA itself would grade an 8.5 if they had half grades. The fact that GAI might "bump" 40 percent of them says nothing bad about PSA because PSA chooses to grade cards on a whole point system, so in that sense, an 8.5 from GAI is not a "bump" rather it is a different grade based on a different system. So my point stands: your own estimates of how GAI would grade your collection support the proposition that PSA's grading is consistent. GAI would agree that, under PSA's system, almost 98 percent of your cards are graded accurately. I also do not see 8.5s bringing in major premiums for the typical star cards, but my experience concededly is not as broad as others who may be in a better position to comment.

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Posted By: Scott Forrest

...you are selling to people who buy the slab rather than the card. A PSA-8 that is actually over half-way to being a PSA-9, would be a GAI-8.5, and if you assume GAI and PSA slabs have equal retail value (which they don't), then the GAI-8.5 is "worth" more.

But of course people who buy the actual "card" would pay more for an "almost 9" PSA-8, than for a "barely 8" PSA-8....and then they would crack it out.

It's all about marketing and money, which is why we even have PSA to talk about.

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Posted By: PASJD

Buying the slab includes buying the name of the grading company on the slab. My impression is that a GAI 8.5 of a typical star card will sell for less than, or certainly not more than, a strong PSA 8 of the same card.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Jim, I'm in the 55 and 58 sets near the top.

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Posted By: John

Has this hobby really come down to mythical half grades now, good god. What a Pandora’s box we have opened with the advent of these grading companies. Half a point better how absurd.

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

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Posted By: JimCrandell

My understanding was when Marshall converted his 57 Topps psa set to gai there were no downgrades.

I could check on this with Mike.

As I said I am just guessing on what my cards would grade with GAI--my experience with PSA was over 85% of the 95 cards I resubmitted were upgraded.

Dav

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Peter, I would tend to agree that with modern cards (Topps 50s and up), a GAI 8.5 may just be equal to a PSA 8 --thus making it prohibitive to consider a crossover. And you're right--a PSA 8 may very well have been a PSA 8.5 if such a grade existed. So, thousands of PSA 8s are not likely (at least in theory) to cross many over as GAI 9s -- unless GAI wanted the business badly enough.

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Posted By: anonymousdave

....

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Posted By: Josh K.

what, how can you possibly not see Ward's hands on his hips?

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Posted By: David Vargha

His hands were on the ample hips on one FiFi LaFleur. She moved just off camera as the shot was snapped. There wasn't enough room on the flip for the full description, so it was abbreviated as shown.

DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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Posted By: barrysloate

Hey- I'm hip to John Ward. What I mentioned on a different post is that the job of card grading is a tedious and repetitive process, and I think if any of us had to do this eight hours a day, five days a week, we would sort of put ourselves on automatic pilot; hence, all these errors we see on the labels. Try grading your own cards for eight hours without your mind wandering a bit. It's not an excuse for the labels, merely recognizing that grading is in fact a monotonous and dull job.

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Posted By: Harry_Pairatesties

I think the problem is that PSA encapsulation room is diffrent from the label room? I doubt that they are intertwined so as the cards come down the labels are waiting for them? Maybe someone who has worked for a grading company that pumps out 15,000 cards a month can shed some light on this problem? After all if PSA only graded vintage cards they would have been out of business a few years ago. I guess the same can be said for Topps? If collectors only bought vintage they would have stopped making cards in 1953.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Maybe its a sweatshop with graders locked into a windowless room who are not allowed breaks. Maybe not quite that bad, but repetitive and tedious for sure.

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Posted By: Scott Forrest

should not occur if someone is double-checking the work. I wouldn't think it would be that difficult or time-consuming, and if reviews were being done I doubt we would see things like the t206 Heinie/Honus or this Ward example. What are the odds of these things getting past two people?

If a 10-second review per card is too tedious, another possible solution is that PSA add "flags" to their database for high-profile cards - when a label is requested to be printed for something like a t206 Wagner (Honus), perhaps a pop-up box comes up suggesting that the item be double-checked.