Very cool history behind White Sox at Royal Gorge 1910

[Dto7]

Not Johnny Beall

[bmarlowe1]

I don't think the guy is Beall.

[Dto7]

Originally Posted by bmarlowe1

I don't think the guy is Beall.

Thanks Mark

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by Dto7

I think the reason Chick Gandil isn't there is because he lived in California and was waiting for the team to get there.

Maybe he was somewhere back inside the train while the photo was taken, already conspiring to fix the 1919 World Series, nine years in advance.

Great work guys!

Brian

[Dto7]

a few players that played for the Sox out west.

Hunky Shaw-3B, Ray Ryan-C, Victor Holm-P, John Schmirler-P and Yip Owens-C.

[Dto7]

Here's a photo of John Schmirler 1909 Duluth White Sox. Looks like the player to the right of Warren Gill in post #23.

[Section103]

As a Coloradoan, I am beyond impressed with that Royal Gorge PC.

[Tom S.]

On the first of the three images from the Denver Library link (not the image used for the postcard), could the 2nd guy standing on the top of the locomotive to the left of the smokestack be Gandil?



And it appears the guy sitting next to the smokestack is Johnny Beall...

[GregMitch34]

But where's John Cusack?

[bmarlowe1]

I also think the guy seated left of the smokestack is Beall, and that is Gill right of the smokestack.

Too blurry for me to tell much about Gandil.

As for Schmirler - could be.

[Dto7]

Could be Chet Waite. Waite 1908 Springfield Ponies

[pbspelly]

Originally Posted by Dto7

Could be Chet Waite. Waite 1908 Springfield Ponies

If it's not Chet Waite, the two were clearly separated at birth.

[bmarlowe1]

Originally Posted by pbspelly

If it's not Chet Waite, the two were clearly separated at birth.

Agreed - great find!

[Dto7]

Picture of Ray Ryan who was in the lineup in California

[bmarlowe1]

Originally Posted by Dto7

Here's a photo of John Schmirler 1909 Duluth White Sox. Looks like the player to the right of Warren Gill in post #23.

Found a better version of the Schmirler exemplar. Sure looks good. Any record of him being present?

[Dto7]

Originally Posted by bmarlowe1

Found a better version of the Schmirler exemplar. Sure looks good. Any record of him being present?

It has his last name in some games as pitching.

[Dto7]

Some of the White Sox players that were in Los Angeles March 7, 1910. Not a very good picture but does show some of the players.

[Dto7]

Hugh Fullerton, best known for uncovering the Black Sox scandal.

[GregMitch34]

I just won another photo taken that day in an auction, apparently (from writing on back) from files of railroad company.
http://www.net54baseball.com/attachm...1&d=1395288915

[Dto7]

Originally Posted by GregMitch34

I just won the second photo taken that day in an auction, from files of railroad company.
http://www.net54baseball.com/attachm...1&d=1395288915

It's another version of the second photo...a few of the people have moved around in this photo. Nice catch.

[GregMitch34]

Right, so now we know there were THREE photos--all black and white, one of them tinted for postcards.... Maybe the third photo I just posted yields more clues to players...

[Dto7]

I count 32 players between Team #1 and Team #2

[Dto7]

Could be Walter Carlisle who was invited to go on the train and was going to play for the Vernon Tigers of the Pacific Coast League.

[Dto7]

Could be Frank Miller another west coast player invited to ride the train to California. Miller going to play for the San Francisco Seals.

[pbspelly]

Not sure about Miller, but if that isn't Carlisle, we've got another long-lost twin case for 20/20 and ancestry.com to do a special on. Look at the mouth and chin.

[bmarlowe1]

Agree. I don't think that's Miller, but Carlisle for sure.

[Dto7]

Team 1 in black uniforms and team 2 in white uniforms the same in the Denver library photos. might help with the ID's of the last players.

[Dto7]

I believe that my post #35 is not Willis Cole but is Frank Lange.

[bmarlowe1]

Post 23 has the right guy (below right) for Frank Lange:

[Dto7]

Originally Posted by bmarlowe1

Post 23 has the right guy (below right) for Frank Lange:

Oops, forgot about that one.

The 3 main ones were looking for.

[bmarlowe1]

I also think it's safe to say that the guy originally IDed as Willis Cole in #35 (below left) was correctly identified.

[peterb69]

Can anyone identify Cuke Barrows? I believe the initial guess was changed. He did play according to the newspaper article.

[bmarlowe1]

Originally Posted by peterb69

Can anyone identify Cuke Barrows? I believe the initial guess was changed. He did play according to the newspaper article.

It wasn't a guess and it did not change.

[Dto7]

Catcher

[peterb69]

Originally Posted by bmarlowe1

It wasn't a guess and it did not change.

Sorry Mark, I did not read the , in your append ".....Cuke Barrows, ? (holding baby)" and thought you were guessing the player holding baby was Barrows with a ?.

Thanks for pointing him out. I maybe related to him as I have same last name and relatives that did come from the same area in Maine that he lived.

[bmarlowe1]

Originally Posted by peterb69

Sorry Mark, I did not read the , in your append ".....Cuke Barrows, ? (holding baby)" and thought you were guessing the player holding baby was Barrows with a ?.

Thanks for pointing him out. I maybe related to him as I have same last name and relatives that did come from the same area in Maine that he lived.

Peter: no need to apologize to me. My reply to you was kind of abrupt. Anyway, "? (holding baby)" is Irv Young.

Dto7: While that is McMurray with the catchers mitt in the Sox team 1 photo, I don't see him in the Royal Gorge photo.

[Dto7]

Looks like catcher Yip Owens. 2 from Royal Gorge photos. Yip Owens 1905 Red Sox and 1909 White Sox.

[pbspelly]

Yip Owens, Cuke Barrows. Got to love ballplayer names back then

[bmarlowe1]

Yip Owens (major league debut 1905) it is. Note that his Baseball-Reference image is actually a photo of Frank Owen (major league debut 1901) who is also sometimes known as Yip.

[veloce]

Originally Posted by bmarlowe1

Yipe Owens (major league debut 1905) it is. Note that his Baseball-Reference image is actually a photo of Frank Owen (major league debut 1901) who is also sometimes known as Yip.

I think the nickname Yip should only apply to pitcher Frank Owen. As the SABR bioproject quoted below notes, there is a reasonable chance that "Yip" was only attributed to catcher Frank Owens due to confusion between the two players with similar names. I know Yip has persisted for both players for quite some time, but it only makes sense as a nickname for the pitcher from Ypsilanti.

BTW, great work Don and Mark. I wish there were more threads like this.

Quote from http://sabr.org/bioproj/person/e2b171ab :
"Where did the nickname Yip come from? We have been able to find only a couple of references to Yip Owens, both more than five years after he’d finished playing in the majors. It’s entirely possible those were mistakes, confusing him with another man of a similar name, Frank Malcolm Owen, who pitched in the American League starting in 1901 and was a 21-game winner both in 1904 and 1905 for the White Sox. Frank Malcolm Owen came from Ypsilanti, Michigan, and understandably did get the nickname Yip used occasionally in print during his career. When Frank Owens the catcher came along just a few years later, he may have picked up the name when he arrived – or it may simply be a mistake. Such mistakes were made; Owen – the pitcher – was frequently referred to as Owens (with the “s”) in print at the time. And there are times when Owens was referred to as Owen."

"White Sox owner Charles Comiskey had his men travel to California again in the spring of 1910, and Owens contracted tonsillitis in Sacramento. "

[Dto7]

The Player in white could be Ray Ryan.

[Dto7]

Could this be Al Louis Shaw but not to be confused with Al Simpson Shaw.

[bmarlowe1]

Ryan yes.

Shaw no - the easiest thing to see is the ear shape difference between the face in question and the two Shaw images on the right. There are other issues as well.

[bmarlowe1]

Sometimes you can find exactly what you need. Unknown guy from Royal Gorge below left, Al Louis Shaw with Detroit 1900, right. The ears immediately tell the story.

[Dto7]

Would you say that this is the same player.

[bmarlowe1]

Originally Posted by Dto7

Would you say that this is the same player.

For sure.

I'm speculating at this point, but he may be Charlie French. He is a pretty good match to the face labeled as French in the 1910 White Sox team headshots in the 1911 Spalding Guide. Note that the Charlie French photo on Baseball-Reference is someone else - so one of them is wrong.

[Dto7]

Could be French. But I don't have him on any list and his name wasn't in any of the box scores that I saw. White Sox didn't him from the Boston Red Sox until May 19, 1910.

Charlie French 1909 Red Sox Spring camp.

[bmarlowe1]

Originally Posted by Dto7

Could be French. But I don't have him on any list and his name wasn't in any of the box scores that I saw. White Sox didn't him from the Boston Red Sox until May 19, 1910.

Charlie French 1909 Red Sox Spring camp.

Then it's not likely French. Found his c46 card - just someone who looks somewhat similar.

[Dto7]

Here's another photo of that unknown player in the second Royal Gorge photo. The player in white top left.

[Dto7]

According to The Chicago Examiner players waiting on the west coast for the Comiskey train.

The Players were Bill Burns, Chick Gandil, Victor Holm, Hugh McMurray, Charlie Mullen, Jim Scott, and Shaw.