You Guys See This E.Manning/NYG Fraud Story?

[Deertick]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Just to clarify, the allegation is not that Eli wanted to make fakes for sale/profit, but that he wanted to keep the originals for his own personal collection.

That is Deadspin's take. If you read the document, it is pretty clear that they were used to fulfill contractual obligations to Steiner. Maybe not all, but at least several specific items were mentioned.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Deertick

That is Deadspin's take. If you read the document, it is pretty clear that they were used to fulfill contractual obligations to Steiner. Maybe not all, but at least several specific items were mentioned.

Have there been any documented examples of a player keeping items and then later deciding to sell some of them, and the 'fakes' then coming back to haunt everyone? This just doesn't make sense for Eli to do.

Go Hawks.

Originally Posted by Runscott

Have there been any documented examples of a player keeping items and then later deciding to sell some of them, and the 'fakes' then coming back to haunt everyone? This just doesn't make sense for Eli to do.

Go Hawks.

While not a purposeful attempt to defraud, I always found this story about the baseball bat Roberto Clemente used on his 3,000th hit to be interesting. Three different bats?

http://espn.go.com/espn/story/_/page...o-clemente-bat

Go Hawks!

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by pariah1107

While not a purposeful attempt to defraud, I always found this story about the baseball bat Roberto Clemente used on his 3,000th hit to be interesting. Three different bats?

http://espn.go.com/espn/story/_/page...o-clemente-bat

Go Hawks!

Ty, that was a great read - thanks for posting!

I remember when a Nap Rucker no-hitter ball came up for auction. I went through some really weird scenarios in my head, as to how it could be an incorrect ball. In the end, I didn't bid, and the provenance was as good as you could possibly hope for. Lots of weird stuff happens.

Go Hawks

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Blitzu

Not FBI- HSI, homeland security investigations. We're a completely different agency with border search authority. I worked at the O'Hare mail unit during the last Super Bowl picking off *thousands* of fake jerseys that could easily be sold off as authentic jerseys from China.

They come in year round but always pick up right before certain major events.

Apologies for the confusion but... same idea . There's one of these big counterfeit busts every single year at the Super Bowl.

[Blitzu]

Originally Posted by Tabe

Apologies for the confusion but... same idea . There's one of these big counterfeit busts every single year at the Super Bowl.

We get touchy when the FBI steals our press

[drcy]

...

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Have there been any documented examples of a player keeping items and then later deciding to sell some of them, and the 'fakes' then coming back to haunt everyone? This just doesn't make sense for Eli to do.

One possible explanation is that players have been known to wear several jerseys during the same game so that they can sell multiples of that item "game used".

[prestigecollectibles]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YFtIeIIHcE

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

Originally Posted by Blitzu

Not FBI- HSI, homeland security investigations. We're a completely different agency with border search authority. I worked at the O'Hare mail unit during the last Super Bowl picking off *thousands* of fake jerseys that could easily be sold off as authentic jerseys from China.

They come in year round but always pick up right before certain major events.

I have never heard of anyone in the Homeland Security field refer to it as HSI.

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

Originally Posted by I Only Smoke 4 the Cards

I have never heard of anyone in the Homeland Security field refer to it as HSI.

I just googled HSI and it makes sense now - it's part of ICE.

[ullmandds]

Another good Keith O piece...I like that he brings these scoops to the mainstream.

On another note I've never been attracted to the memorabilia, autograph, game used side of this hobby. I have pieces I've obtained throughout my life...mostly as a child that I know are real because I was there...but I couldn't imagine taking someone's word that a jersey, autograph or whatever is what they say...because this world is full of crooks...and it's way too easy to fake this stuff.

Someone posted a remark that he felt that today...if someone really wanted to fake vintage, pre WW cards...he unequivocally felt this could be done...and noone would know. I don't believe this...in my brain it is not possible even with the technology we have at out disposal to make absolute replicas of these old cards...but all of this other stuff...absolutely!!!!

[Blitzu]

Originally Posted by I Only Smoke 4 the Cards

I just googled HSI and it makes sense now - it's part of ICE.

Yes, we are under ICE, and were originally titled as ICE Special Agents, but over the last two years we have made a push to separate ourselves from ICE. We changed our badges, credentials, jackets and all other branding logo's to get rid of ICE from our name to HSI. The agency wants to make a push to show that we do much more than traditional immigration and custom related investigations. Seeing also that most of the negative press of "ICE Agents" raiding villages and separating families was from the poorly named title for the junior enforcement agents as "Immigration Enforcement Agents", who also called themselves ICE Agents for short, and our investigations division- which is totally separate from the Immigration enforcement division- were titled ICE Special Agents, and also commonly also referred to as ICE Agents. It led to a lot of bad press and false correlations that was taking away from the good the investigative agents were doing as the main investigative branch of DHS.

Therefore, we made a push to try and separate all entirely from ICE. It didn't work all that well, and instead we changed our division name from Office of Investigations, to Homeland Security Investigations (HSI). They also changed all our badges and credentials to re-title us HSI Special Agents and pulled ICE from everything.

Not that this is applicable at all to the thread discussion, but it might seem interesting to one or two of you.

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

Originally Posted by Blitzu

Yes, we are under ICE, and were originally titled as ICE Special Agents, but over the last two years we have made a push to separate ourselves from ICE. We changed our badges, credentials, jackets and all other branding logo's to get rid of ICE from our name to HSI. The agency wants to make a push to show that we do much more than traditional immigration and custom related investigations. Seeing also that most of the negative press of "ICE Agents" raiding villages and separating families was from the poorly named title for the junior enforcement agents as "Immigration Enforcement Agents", who also called themselves ICE Agents for short, and our investigations division- which is totally separate from the Immigration enforcement division- were titled ICE Special Agents, and also commonly also referred to as ICE Agents. It led to a lot of bad press and false correlations that was taking away from the good the investigative agents were doing as the main investigative branch of DHS.

Therefore, we made a push to try and separate all entirely from ICE. It didn't work all that well, and instead we changed our division name from Office of Investigations, to Homeland Security Investigations (HSI). They also changed all our badges and credentials to re-title us HSI Special Agents and pulled ICE from everything.

Not that this is applicable at all to the thread discussion, but it might seem interesting to one or two of you.

Thanks for the info. I was in the Homeland Security Studies program at Tulane so I find it pretty interesting.

[drcy]

...

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by drcy

Now, if someone wanted to make a brand new and previously unknown issue using the old printing technology or if they had the original printing plates, that would be a different situation.

Yes, and if they could create the technology in 1909, then, even though it's been abandoned now, it could certainly be created today. The problem is still what shows up under the microscope - there is not pattern to lithography, especially the intricate stuff they created in the late 1800's. They even had special jobs for 'painters' (wrong term I'm sure) who created all those beautiful but not predictable, dot patterns in the backgrounds.

From my meager knowledge of the process, it seems like re-creating these lithographs would be similar to forging a painting. I think you could do it, and even come up with, for example, a copy of a T206 Wagner that at first (or even second) glance would be almost exact, but if you looked at specific areas under a magnifier and compared, the forgery would be immediately noticed. But...plastic slabs could take care of that. Get it slabbed and it's probably safe from detection.

[drcy]

...

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

Originally Posted by drcy

Even if someone had the original printing plates, it would still be hard to make a passable T206 Honus Wagner counterfeit, even at the eye level. You still need card stock, aging, machine cut, inks, the correct look and printing skills. As Yogi Berra said, "In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is." Or as I say, "Anyone can write a novel. It's writing a good one that's hard."

I don't think the card stock would be the problem. I think that aging the front would. I bet you could find a way to scrub the front of a legit T206 with a proper back.

***I am not advocating counterfeiting but just saying it is possible.

[drcy]

...

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Yes, and if they could create the technology in 1909, then, even though it's been abandoned now, it could certainly be created today. The problem is still what shows up under the microscope - there is not pattern to lithography, especially the intricate stuff they created in the late 1800's. They even had special jobs for 'painters' (wrong term I'm sure) who created all those beautiful but not predictable, dot patterns in the backgrounds.

From my meager knowledge of the process, it seems like re-creating these lithographs would be similar to forging a painting. I think you could do it, and even come up with, for example, a copy of a T206 Wagner that at first (or even second) glance would be almost exact, but if you looked at specific areas under a magnifier and compared, the forgery would be immediately noticed. But...plastic slabs could take care of that. Get it slabbed and it's probably safe from detection.

It's never been abandoned. The traditional methods are still used by artists, and while the details of the process have changed a bit the underlying process is unchanged. Recreating a card from the era would still be a challenge to get the materials just right, but I don't think it's impossible.

Steve B

[Exhibitman]

How about this gem from the NYP article:

"A former Steiner Sports employee said Thursday that staffers of the memorabilia seller suspected that not all of the “game-used” gear was real. “Specifically, from Eli we would see it and say, ‘Come on, this is not ‘game used,’ ” the source said."

Yikes!

This reminds me of the Hillerich & Bradsby case I handled some years ago involving the Joe D. streak bat. Tommy Henrich vouched for the bat but questions popped up as to the details. Also reminds me of the controversy a few years ago about Don Larsen's uni from the perfect game. I hear stories all the time of how dear ol' granddad got someone's signature only to have it turn out to be secretarial or forged.

[Runscott]

Yes, and if honest mistakes can occur, like the three Clemente bats, then certainly when people are trying to pull the wool over our eyes, they should be having some success.

...but all my stuff is real because I'm special.

[the 'stache]

This has not been the best of weeks for the Manning family.

[Gary Dunaier]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

while it may have been "quality" dirt...it probably wasn't even yankee stadium dirt!

Originally Posted by kkkkandp

Would it still count as "Yankee Stadium Dirt" if the NY DPW swept it up from East 161st St?

Oh, that's beautiful. Fake dirt from a fake phony fraud counterfeit artificial stadium without a soul that was built on parkland stolen from the neighborhood. I love it!