HOF releases pre-Integration ballot today.

[novakjr]

Rookie card wise, O'day and White are already pretty much out of my reach..

Collectible-wise I do have White on the 1874 Harper's weekly Boston woodcut(edit: I have the 1902 reprinted issue)..and a guide page(I believe from the 20's) of the 1869 Forest City Blues.

I'm not sure if O'day was on any of the woodcuts..

Now, I'm trying to figure out what Ruppert's RC would technically be.. I know there's the 1962 Topps Ruth card that has him on it..And a card with him in 1948 Swell Babe Ruth movie set could lead to some confusion. He is mentioned by name on it, but the photo is of the actor playing him in the film.. I don't know if there is anything earlier or else of him though.

Anyone have any more info, or thoughts?

[Matthew H]

I'm with Rhys and Chris. The N284 would be White's true rookie card anyway since White was introduced to the Old Judge set in 1888.

O'Day is super common. I haven't been collecting OJs that long but in that time I've seen plenty of his cards for sale.

BTW John, I'm rooting for you man! I hope someone trades you their Deacon White OJ for your O'Day!

[z28jd]

Originally Posted by Matthew H

I'm with Rhys and Chris. The N284 would be White's true rookie card anyway since White was introduced to the Old Judge set in 1888.

O'Day is super common. I haven't been collecting OJs that long but in that time I've seen plenty of his cards for sale.

BTW John, I'm rooting for you man! I hope someone trades you their Deacon White OJ for your O'Day!

While that would be nice Matt, I won't hold my breath. I do have plenty of other cards to trade though, so who knows. My poor Pittsburgh team set, just one player away from being complete...

[oldjudge]

My choices would be O'Day and Deacon White. I think Deacon White should be a no brainer, but who knows how these knuckleheads will vote.

Great call Jay LOL

[oldjudge]

BTW Matt. O'Day was readily available when no one was really looking for him. Now every HOF collector will want his Old Judge card. In no time demand will swamp supply and O'Day prices will move up strongly. Will they move to McPhee levels--no. McPhee is a scarcer card. They will eventually settle at Keefe/Clarkson/Ward type levels, but in the near term they will exceed these.

[the-illini]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

BTW Matt. O'Day was readily available when no one was really looking for him. Now every HOF collector will want his Old Judge card. In no time demand will swamp supply and O'Day prices will move up strongly. Will they move to McPhee levels--no. McPhee is a scarcer card. They will eventually settle at Keefe/Clarkson/Ward type levels, but in the near term they will exceed these.

Jay - where would you rank Deacon White OJ cards in terms of scarcity when compared to other HOFers in the set - top 3 of the most difficult?

[prewarsports]

Deacon White Old Judges are in the "If you have to ask you cant afford it" levels of exotic Sports Cars and expensive Wines. Not saying anything about anyone personally in any way whatsoever, but lets just say the prices for his Old Judge cards were VERY, VERY high before he got inducted into the Hall of Fame. Now they will far exceed every other Hall of Famer in the set save wierd Players League variations and the Anson in uniform. He will leave Bid McPhee and Delahanty and other like them in his dust!

I would have gone Dahlen, Mullane, White, and Reach all of which are deserving and should be in the Hall. Ruppert was a puppet and his business managers and secretaries ran the Yankees. Al Reach was FAR more deserving and someday he will be in the Hall of Fame. Cy Rigler is a more deserving Umpire than O'Day.

[barrysloate]

With Deacon White's N172 being so scarce, very few collectors will now be able to complete a Hall of Famer run. And regarding O'Day, I agree with Jay: there will be a big spike as everyone tries to get an O'Day card at the same time, but for those who can wait it will eventually sell for about the same as a more common OJ HOFer.

[paul]

Barry, I'll be on the look out for a Scrapps Deacon White for my HOF run, so hopefully the scarcity of his Old Judge card won't slow me down. How tough is his OJ really? Is it actually tougher than McPhee?

[the-illini]

Originally Posted by prewarsports

Deacon White Old Judges are in the "If you have to ask you cant afford it" levels of exotic Sports Cars and expensive Wines. Not saying anything about anyone personally in any way whatsoever, but lets just say the prices for his Old Judge cards were VERY, VERY high before he got inducted into the Hall of Fame. Now they will far exceed every other Hall of Famer in the set save wierd Players League variations and the Anson in uniform. He will leave Bid McPhee and Delahanty and other like them in his dust!

I would have gone Dahlen, Mullane, White, and Reach all of which are deserving and should be in the Hall. Ruppert was a puppet and his business managers and secretaries ran the Yankees. Al Reach was FAR more deserving and someday he will be in the Hall of Fame. Cy Rigler is a more deserving Umpire than O'Day.

Sounds like White will easily be the toughest HOFer in the set then - I thought it was a couple of particular poses of his that were super scarce, like the portrait card with the incorrect name - did not realize he was that difficult regardless of pose.

[oldjudge]

I think White will be one of the tougher HOFers, but really no tougher than McPhee or Delahanty. High prices make cards come out and make them seem more common than they really are. McPhee was seen much less frequently before he got into the HOF, when he was a $300 card. When he became a $3000+ card he started showing up much more.

[oldjudge]

Barry-it will be tough for HOF collectors to get a pose run of Deacon White with the McCreachery mislabel being a unique card. I guess that just became the most difficult HOF pose. Here is a link to the photographer's proof for that card:

http://www.oldjudge.com/auction/highlights/4/#a

[z28jd]

Well, if you go by the OJ book, Deacon White falls behind Bid McPhee in toughness(very scarce) and is in the same category as Rusie and Robinson(scarce). I think the problem is those Detroit collectors are hoarders, going for all the poses. So plenty of people have multiples of a tough card to find. Also there are people going for pose collections, so advanced collectors could/do have nine of his cards off the market right now

[Matthew H]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

BTW Matt. O'Day was readily available when no one was really looking for him. Now every HOF collector will want his Old Judge card. In no time demand will swamp supply and O'Day prices will move up strongly. Will they move to McPhee levels--no. McPhee is a scarcer card. They will eventually settle at Keefe/Clarkson/Ward type levels, but in the near term they will exceed these.

Hi Jay, how are you doing?

Speaking of O'Day and his pre-HOF demand, there was a nice example sitting on ebay for 275 a few months ago,,, and it did sit for quite some time. I just thought I'd throw that out there for all the HOF collectors

[bcbgcbrcb]

If you want a tough O'Day card, try the 1888 Sporting Times.

Also, D. White appears in the 1887 Buchner Gold Coin set, I know that they are generic player images but still, I believe, his earliest individual card, correct?

Finally, I have not been able to come up with a career contemporary card for Ruppert. Thus far, the earliest card that I can find is his '62 Topps w/Babe Ruth, kind of similar to the '59 Fleer Ted Williams w/Tom Yawkey, neither is named on the front.

[novakjr]

Originally Posted by bcbgcbrcb

If you want a tough O'Day card, try the 1888 Sporting Times.

Also, D. White appears in the 1887 Buchner Gold Coin set, I know that they are generic player images but still, I believe, his earliest individual card, correct?

Finally, I have not been able to come up with a career contemporary card for Ruppert. Thus far, the earliest card that I can find is his '62 Topps w/Babe Ruth, kind of similar to the '59 Fleer Ted Williams w/Tom Yawkey, neither is named on the front.

So I take it you're with me, in not recognizing card 19 from the '48 Swell Ruth set as one of him, since it only depicts the actor.. The only other thing's I've really stumbled across was a small engraving of him from 1902(although that's from a book), and then this brewers' association portrait http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-FRAM...p2047675.l2557 looks like somebody might've gotten a steal.

[bcbgcbrcb]

Agreed, Dave, not a card of Ruppert.

[Matthew H]

+1 what John said about 9 poses creating an extra factor in scarcity.

I got to talk cards for a while with Jay today and he told me that there are two Deacon White poses that are the "easiest" to find.

If next one that surfaces is not one of those poses, it might be needed by a collector that already had several Whites, but not that particular pose.

[barrysloate]

The McGreachery card, which of course pictures White, is a strange card. Does anyone know why that name was used? Was there some kind of an inside joke going on at the printer's?

[oldjudge]

Barry-Joe and I always thought that it was a joke about White's age, that he was old enough to be a manager and, in fact, looked like one. The name and the team might have meant something at the time but it means nothing to me.

Matt-there is only one easier White pose, the one where he is reaching up over his head for a ball. Great to chat with you today!

[prewarsports]

Phil

There are LOTS of contemporary advertisement pieces for Ruppert's Beer. I cant recall if there is anything with his image, but you might try looking down that avenue instead of strictly for Sports Memorabilia items. I seem to recal an advertsising piece with his image on it from the 1920's at one point but that might be the Hockey Concussions from my younger years affecting my memory again!

Rhys

[bcbgcbrcb]

Could be, Rhys but I am only collecting cards and postcards these days, no more advertising premiums, etc.

[Joe_G.]

Great thread.

I believe O'Day will be most like Ned Hanlon who was also a relatively new HOF inductee (1996). Both have three poses with most of them being of the fairly common 1887 variety. They were also both elected for their accomplishments outside of being a player (Hanlon as Manager, O'Day as umpire). In the case of Hanlon, his prices were quite elevated for awhile but have dropped down to mid-level HOFer. I expect the same for O'Day.

As for Deacon White, I expect him to be the most expensive HOFer from here on out. While his total population might be about the same as McPhee & Robinson, the most advanced collectors who enjoy growing their collection pose-by-pose will bid aggressively on a White pose they need. These pose collectors completed their McPhee & Robinson collections at 5 poses apiece while Deacon White will keep them going longer to fill the 8 available poses (not counting McCreachery) which means fewer copies for the rest of us. Heck, in the past decade, I've only seen 5 of Deacon's 9 N172 poses hit the market and they were often buried in large lots. I suspect each and every pose that surfaces will be highly contested. For those who place some value on the population reports, Robinson & McPhee were the rarest with only 12 & 18 graded examples respectively. Deacon White currently sits at 7. (citing SGC pop report). I do hope that Deacon White cards come out of the wood work as I'm eager to add to my run and will try to hang with the big boys.

As for Deacon White's true rookie card, I'll propose his 1886 Tomlinson cabinets for your consideration. I've documented 5 Tomlinsons in total, 4 of the batting pose variety and a single portrait.

[Jay Wolt]

Originally Posted by bcbgcbrcb

D. White appears in the 1887 Buchner Gold Coin set,

Here's what it looks like, though now residing in an SGC-40 slab

[bcbgcbrcb]

You're right, Joe, forgot about D. White's 1886 Tomlinson.

[cyseymour]

Originally Posted by Joe_G.

Great thread..

As for Deacon White, I expect him to be the most expensive HOFer from here on out. While his total population might be about the same as McPhee & Robinson, the most advanced collectors who enjoy growing their collection pose-by-pose will bid aggressively on a White pose they need. These pose collectors completed their McPhee & Robinson collections at 5 poses apiece while Deacon White will keep them going longer to fill the 8 available poses (not counting McCreachery) which means fewer copies for the rest of us. Heck, in the past decade, I've only seen 5 of Deacon's 9 N172 poses hit the market and they were often buried in large lots. I suspect each and every pose that surfaces will be highly contested. For those who place some value on the population reports, Robinson & McPhee were the rarest with only 12 & 18 graded examples respectively. Deacon White currently sits at 7. (citing SGC pop report). I do hope that Deacon White cards come out of the wood work as I'm eager to add to my run and will try to hang with the big boys.

Joe G.,

This is a great point about the number of White poses, but while there may be three extra poses to increase demand, I'm not sure it will be enough to surpass Delahanty, because White is still just a borderline HOFer. But it could put him on par with Wright/Anson.

[Joe_G.]

Originally Posted by cyseymour

Joe G.,

This is a great point about the number of White poses, but while there may be three extra poses to increase demand, I'm not sure it will be enough to surpass Delahanty, because White is still just a borderline HOFer. But it could put him on par with Wright/Anson.

". . . borderline HOFer . . ."??, I think not. Deacon's enshrinement was long overdue. His career should now receive more attention and help place him in the proper pecking order which will be well ahead of many other HOFers. I will be the first to pay Delahanty prices for any pose that may be available. For many years, his prices were already higher than most N172 HOFers (albeit, most HOFers are fairly common).

[cyseymour]

Originally Posted by Joe_G.

". . . borderline HOFer . . ."??, I think not. Deacon's enshrinement was long overdue. His career should now receive more attention and help place him in the proper pecking order which will be well ahead of many other HOFers. I will be the first to pay Delahanty prices for any pose that may be available. For many years, his prices were already higher than most N172 HOFers (albeit, most HOFers are fairly common).

Hmmm... okay, you're right, after reading up on him, it turns out he did put up some very good numbers. I've googled his cards for search results and found nothing, so I'm not sure what it sells for. I guess we'll have to wait until spring for some to come up to auction, and then we'll know more.

Jay does make the point that since the McCreachery pose is unique, advanced collectors may not choose to go for a run of every pose. So let's wait till spring and then we'll certainly have a much better idea of what they are worth!