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#51
06-29-2009, 08:23 PM
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Not if you shift all the risk onto the consignors. mastro/legendary has had plenty of opportunity to pay their consignors. They choose not to. And it stinks. Last edited by three25hits; 06-29-2009 at 08:24 PM. 
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#52
06-29-2009, 10:22 PM
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This explains why, despite some collectors' applauding of the practice in the names of quick shipping and good customer service, I never thought it such a great idea for an auction house to ship winnings before receiving payment.
Last edited by drc; 06-29-2009 at 10:25 PM.
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#53
06-30-2009, 05:19 AM
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isn't this....
...what Madoff got 150 years for?
__________________
Galleries and Articles about T206 Player Autographs www.SignedT206.com www.instagram.com/signedT206/ @SignedT206
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#54
06-30-2009, 06:31 AM
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T206collector
I am far from a Mastro apologist but Madoff ruined hundreds, if not thousands, of folks financial futures. I doubt Mastro has ruined 1 financial future. Not quite the same. Punishments generally do fit crimes.
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#55
06-30-2009, 06:36 AM
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Quote:
__________________
http://www.flickr.com/photos/calvindog/sets
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#56
06-30-2009, 06:49 AM
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Jeff
Please name all of the people, other than maybe internal people (which I doubt too), who Mastro Auctions ruined their financial futures? You may start with the letter "A". I know the starting letter is kind of difficult to figure out. That's my 'ole community college kicking in for ya'!!
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#57
06-30-2009, 07:44 AM
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Leon, first, if you're 'far from a Mastro apologist' I'd like to see someone who's a real Mastro apologist. Second, I wasn't aware that the complete ruination of someone's financial future is the requirement that needs to be hit before any scorn can be heaped on thieves. Perhaps if you were a victim of Mastro you'd feel differently, right? Plus it's not like you're privy to the information as to who was ripped off and how much, right?
Finally, no one -- including Paul -- suggested that Mastro et al. were as bad as Madoff. Paul simply noted that the theory of robbing Peter to pay Paul was apparently in play in both scenarios. And finally: why do you come down harder on a BST guy who didn't make good on a $20 deal than Mastro? In both sets of circumstances you've heard of allegations of fraud second-hand. I would think that you'd react quite differently considering that a) you're more likely a victim of Mastro; and b) one person/entity has caused major damage to your beloved hobby.
__________________
http://www.flickr.com/photos/calvindog/sets Last edited by calvindog; 06-30-2009 at 07:48 AM.
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#58
06-30-2009, 08:16 AM
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Jeff
Ok I am an apologist. (just for you). Who said anyone has to be completely ruined to get scorned? You are starting a tale that should be addressed as "Once upon a time". You really do have a great embellishment about your prose. Heck, I might be a victim of Mastro, I dunno....I don't need to continually repeat what I told O'keefe last year, you can google it. I am only privy to the few emails I got from a post on this board as to who is owed money. So, no I am not privy to the billions you are insinuating that Mastro Auctions ripped people off for. Maybe that is in the 2nd chapter of your fairy tale?
No doubt there is a similarity whenever someone gets defrauded in some way. We can all use our imaginations almost as much you do. As for me coming down harder on a $20 deal on the BST than Mastro? That must be the 3rd chapter of your fairly tale. I know a good publisher....just keep talking..... Last edited by Leon; 06-30-2009 at 08:30 AM. Reason: typo
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#59
06-30-2009, 08:24 AM
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Form of Wrong vs. Total Damages
Quote:
Exactly. I was reading the entirety of this thread this morning and it seems to me -- a disinterested 3rd party -- that people are alleging a pyramid scheme of sorts. All seemed well and good when the money was coming in from the auctions. But when the money stopped coming in and the consignors wanted to get paid, well that's when the trouble started. It is eerily similar, based on the facts reported in this thread, was my only point.
__________________
Galleries and Articles about T206 Player Autographs www.SignedT206.com www.instagram.com/signedT206/ @SignedT206
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#60
06-30-2009, 08:29 AM
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Paul
Quote:
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#61
06-30-2009, 08:31 AM
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__________________
http://www.flickr.com/photos/calvindog/sets
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#63
06-30-2009, 08:44 AM
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Leon, you might be the only one who hasn't noticed that I fared pretty well on this issue in this thread.
__________________
http://www.flickr.com/photos/calvindog/sets
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#64
06-30-2009, 09:15 AM
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I would like to understand how Leon attributed the 'billions' number to anything Jeff said? (unless it was edited out / and I didn't see it).
I don't see anything that would suggest anyone was talking about billions. And.... I've been around people (in my own industry) who have owed a whole bunch of money, and decided to try to escape the debts and other trouble by shutting down one company and opening up in a new name. I find that type of action deplorable. And I always wondered how anyone could do business with that 'new' entity. I hope that is not the case here, and I hope the right thing is done by all who are owed money.
__________________
Joe D.
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#65
06-30-2009, 09:31 AM
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Try this at the National...
If you want any dealer (Leon included...be careful if Scott sharing his table  ) to understand the feeling that the consignors are feeling currently...just walk up to their table with a friend, ask to see a card, take card and hand to friend, have friend walk away, tell dealer that you will pay him for the card when your friend finally pays you and you do not know when that will be. I promise you that the dealer will feel robbed, scream, call security, or just beat your ass...the people who dismiss this are just not living in the real world. Mastro/Legendary are nothing more than thieves. Joshua
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#66
06-30-2009, 09:31 AM
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Now if you want to talk economic stability, think Peter Luger's...been serving great steaks at the same location since 1887!
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#67
06-30-2009, 09:35 AM
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Joe
Quote:
I was trying to embellish as much as Jeff did but couldn't quite get to that level. Everyone should get every nickel they are owed. It would be idiocy to think otherwise. *I never defended Mastro, as Jeff stated, I only said they didn't rise to the Madoff level. You and/or Jeff can continue arguing. I am done.
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#68
06-30-2009, 09:52 AM
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151 years!!!
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#69
06-30-2009, 09:59 AM
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__________________
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#70
06-30-2009, 10:08 AM
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Jeff
Where did your D322 Wagner come from, you know the one that was over 25k?
To your question.....Yes, if I was not personally targeted then I would be less upset, but still upset, at being shilled. I am sure that is a very difficult point for you to comprehend though. Maybe you need to take a deep breath sometime....You are turning kind of blue. If a person you knew, came into your home and stole something from you, would you be as upset with a stranger as you would be with them? take care
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#71
06-30-2009, 10:33 AM
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Quote:
Finally, I would be more upset if a trusted friend ripped me off than if a stranger did. I think many people feel this way -- including Bernie Madoff's childhood friends. I suspect you, Doug and Bill probably differ with the rest of us on this one.
__________________
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#73
06-30-2009, 11:17 AM
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Whatever you say, Leon, whatever you say.
__________________
http://www.flickr.com/photos/calvindog/sets
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#74
06-30-2009, 12:22 PM
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Jeff's post illustrates why it is so difficult to control shill bidding, card alteration, etc. -- if they have a card we want, we look the other way and rationalize.
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#76
06-30-2009, 01:00 PM
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#77
06-30-2009, 01:04 PM
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__________________
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#78
06-30-2009, 01:13 PM
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Jeff there you go knocking down a straw man again.
You are but one example of a phenomenon; thus the "we".
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#79
06-30-2009, 01:18 PM
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Peter, stop setting up strawmen and I'll stop knocking them down.
__________________
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#80
06-30-2009, 01:33 PM
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6 minute increments
Lots of 6 minute increments being wasted here when they can be billed out! Or are they?
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#81
06-30-2009, 01:36 PM
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Multitasking.
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#83
07-02-2009, 02:15 PM
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A consignor sends a card to Mastro
Mastro auctions the card Mastro ships the card to the buyer Mastro doesn't pay the consignor The new owner of the card just auctioned it on ebay The new new owner now has the card Mastro continues to not pay the consignor This completely sucks. While its funny to watch the apologists in this thread try to find ways to justify, explain and/or lessen the impact of mastro/legendary's actions -- it isn't one bit funny what mastro/legendary is doing to the consignors or what they are doing to the hobby. Shame on mastro/legendary.
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#84
07-02-2009, 06:51 PM
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#85
07-02-2009, 07:05 PM
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Quote:
The consignor doesn't have the cash, and doesn't have the card. Where is there little risk? Mastro can't send him the card back, they have already sold it to someone else. That someone else has since sold the card? Who is going to go get the card from the ebay buyer?
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#86
07-02-2009, 07:11 PM
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Quote:
This isn't a hypothetical scenario. It just happened. The consignor had to watch his card sell on ebay within the last couple of weeks, and hasn't been paid since February.
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#87
07-02-2009, 07:12 PM
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I am sure this consignor feels that he is in a little risk situation. Probably not worried at all.
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#88
07-02-2009, 07:18 PM
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He needs to put in a legal claim for return of his consignment.
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#89
07-02-2009, 07:19 PM
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To take Brian's point further: What happens if, after I pay for a card that I bought in a Mastro auction, I destroy it (or, more realistically, it accidentally gets destroyed)?
If the answer is that I have to make restitution of the selling price to the original consignor -- in effect paying for the card twice, once to Mastro and again to the consignor -- then you might want to try to come up with something better. Last edited by Rob D.; 07-02-2009 at 07:22 PM.
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#90
07-02-2009, 07:23 PM
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#91
07-02-2009, 07:44 PM
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Think of it this way. When has the "Title" to the card transferred from the consignor. Answer: It hasn't.
Yes, the buyer is at risk. Here's an example that's more common, but very similar. My car is worth $10,000. I sell it to you for that price and give you the car. I don't pay off the bank for the loan on the car. A couple months later you get a knock on the door from the bank asking for their car back. Guess who gets the car? I should add a link proving this.
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#92
07-02-2009, 07:48 PM
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That example isn't similar at all. Unlike in a consignor/auctioneer relationship, the bank didn't authorize you to sell the car on its behalf.
This isn't worth debating with you, simply because your points and assumptions have little to no merit. I'll let someone else continue this lesson in frustration. Last edited by Rob D.; 07-02-2009 at 07:49 PM.
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#93
07-02-2009, 08:09 PM
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__________________
Looking for Nebraska Indians memorabilia, photos and postcards
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#94
07-03-2009, 05:51 AM
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It isn't that simple, Egbeachley
I had one of these cases several years ago. Because the consignor parted with the card knowingly at the outset but the auctioneer embezzled the proceeds, title may transfer. It depends on two factors: (1) which state law is applicable to the transaction and (2) which version of the Uniform Commercial Code was enacted by that state. Some states allow an item obtained under false pretenses to be sold to a bona fide (unwitting) purchaser; some do not. Assuming that the initial transaction could be deemed a transaction under false pretenses--which it may well be since Mastro plainly was in deep doo-doo at the time of the February auction since it ceased ops in early March--whether title transfers has to be analyzed as above.
__________________
Read my blog; it will make all your dreams come true. https://adamstevenwarshaw.substack.com/ Or not...
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#95
07-03-2009, 05:55 AM
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damn, Joshua, that is funny stuff
Quote:
__________________
Read my blog; it will make all your dreams come true. https://adamstevenwarshaw.substack.com/ Or not...
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#97
07-03-2009, 09:24 AM
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Truth, Justice and The American Way
We have long stated
Trust no one Double check everyone It is disappointing (and criminal) that consignors have not been paid by certain auction houses. Given the time, energy and money that long-time collectors have invested in a hobby, when it is time to sell, it is imperative that said collectors are treated with dignity and respect. The Board should dedicate all its efforts to removing any auction houses and/or dealers who violate their legal and moral obligation to the collecting community. The Board should publish a list of auction houses that do not pay on terms and distribute at the National. And their practices should be reported to the Post Office, FBI and local law enforcement. Perhaps there is a few extra rooms in Mr. Madoff's prison to house hobby thieves. Just think by the time they get out their 2009 Topps cards will be more than 100 years old. Perhaps, then they can pay their debts. In the interim, it is time to severely punish the hobby thieves.
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#98
07-03-2009, 09:29 AM
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Bruce lives!
__________________
http://www.flickr.com/photos/calvindog/sets
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#99
07-03-2009, 09:35 AM
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Bruce's post does not include the universally recognized "America's Toughest Want List" byline...has it been retired?
 Thanks Rich...just a typo Last edited by barrysloate; 07-03-2009 at 09:59 AM.
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#100
07-03-2009, 09:39 AM
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Barry; I'm sooo disappointed in you
Has it be retired?
I guess grammar is taking off for the three-day weekend as well  Barry -- I know buddy -- was just giving you a hard time; after all; due to my and my wife's surgeries this week -- we've had the M-I-L over as a guest and you can imagine how that goes on a full time basis Rich Last edited by Rich Klein; 07-03-2009 at 12:42 PM.
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