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#51
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Items for sale or trade here UPDATED 3-16-18 |
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My advice was just for a single new collector if he asked.
Just one thing that I would do hobby wide is to estimate is the margin of error just in assigning the grade, for example as exemplified as through all those resubmissions to get a different grade, and put that margin of error on the label. In science, identifying and expressing the margin of error is integral and essential when communicating results. If a label said "ExMt 6 with margin of error of 5%" that would change things quite a bit. If with numbers people, this margin of error is well known and talked about, if indirectly. There are those who resubmit to get a different grade, people who say "Do you this could get a bump?" and people who say one card looks better than another though in the same number grade. All I'm saying this margin of error should be explicitly expressed on the product for everyone to see, and for this margin of error be expressed in all calculations and considerations. Everything-- in science, life and grading-- has a margin of error. There is nothing wrong with that. The problem is when people, and a system, act as if there is no margin of error. And would that margin of error have to be reflected in the registry numbers? Of course. Would it change pricing on many cards and all that? Probably, but so be it. But much of the hobby is based on bad math and statistics. Do I think this will happen? Of course not. The collectors would fight this more than the graders. PSA registry people would probably have a stroke. Another practical and specific fix would be there should be formal grades for photographs. And I don't say that as some vague, generalized rule, but for specific reason. Last edited by drcy; 01-19-2018 at 12:24 PM. |
#53
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Personally I would prefer that TPA's simply authentic cards and let the buyer decide what grade the card is to them. Assigning numbers is foolish to me because every collector should be able to determine what a card is worth to themselves without some phony number getting involved. And we've seen time and time again that a card can be "Good" one day, returned for another look, and come out "Very Good" the next despite nothing changing. In that scenario authentic cards that have been trimmed will sell for the same price as high grade cards and I think that price will be closer to what authentic cards sell for now than it would to the PSA 9 price. And cards that are in lower "collector" grades will likely balloon in value under that system.
Last edited by packs; 01-19-2018 at 12:05 PM. |
#54
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If you get an artifact carbon dated or thermoluminesciently tested (another method for dating), the result will include the carefully calculated margin of error with the result. Why do they do this? Because they are scientists (one of the main carbon dating places is at the University of Arizona physics department) and care about accuracy in their results.
What does this margin of error in the result force you to do? It forces for you to not just rely on that result, but look at the items from different aspects. For example, thermoluminescence testing, which is a highly advanced atomic testing of the material, often has a large margin of error. The margin of error means it doesn't pinpoint a year or decade or even century, but tells you that the material is either centuries old or new, which is very important information for identifying an item as authentic or a fake. But the authenticator has to consider other aspects in pinpointing the item and its date, such as the style, history, etc. In fact, what often happens with expensive and rare ancient relics and artifacts, the art historian or whomever looks at all the other stuff-- look, style, research-- to judge the identity and age, then the thermoluminescence test is done as the final check, or piece in the puzzle. The historian says this vase appears to be a 14th century Chines, and the thermoluminescence test says "We can't tell you the century, but it is indeed centuries old and not new." Similarly, if the graded card label includes a margin of error with the grade, that will force the collector to consider other things-- usually how the item looks. This, of course, is what many people on this board already do. But I would like this margin of error to be explicitly be expressed and calculated throughout the entire hobby. Would this approach blow up, or at least significantly alter, the baseball card hobby calculations that don't express and incorporate the margin of error? Yes, but this just says those numbers are bad. That physics professor at the University of Arizona would say you have to include the margin of error in the carbon dating result, and subsequent consideration of that result. He would say you can't not do it, and not doing it would be scientific malpractice. So, as I said, if it were up to me, a grading margin of error would be estimated and placed right on the front of the label with the grade, and the margin or error be integrated into all hobby number calculations. Would this significantly alter present calculations such as the registry and some price guides, and alter much hobby perception/consideration of grades? Yes, but that's because those current calculations are perceptions/considerations of grades are currently off. An example of a change in consideration would be a collector saying "The label says NmtMt 8 +/- 18%. I guess I'd better look at the card itself and see what I think." Oh, the horror, the horror. How would the baseball card industrial complex survive such thinking? Last edited by drcy; 01-19-2018 at 01:15 PM. |
#55
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A major difference between "collecting" today and before the TPGs was the old right of passage. We use to go to shows, hold cards, smell cards and talk to people about said card. This was the education you got, the more people you conversed with = the more you learned. Even with TPGs this is still possible even with far less shows to do this.
Some people want specifics on what to look for and that is a great first question. But every issue is different, judging a 1956T is far different than a Cracker Jack. I have collected CJs, PCs, e107s, t205s, t206s, e120s, e121, 33G, 34G, 40PB, n172s, n28s, Topps, Bowman, n300s etc...they all differ. On every single issue I have talked to more experienced people on what to look for, tips, giveaways and anything I could learn...and to me, that is all part of the hobby. This networking is all part of the foundation on what we did and some continue to do. TPGs have allowed people to skip educating yourself and relying on the flip...the flip has become the commodity in many instances instead of the card. I don't care if its raw or graded, I will analyze it myself and make an informed decision based on many different factors including seller, past experiences and if I do not know or feel comfortable I will contact someone. Take the time to reach out, 99% of the time you will get an answer with details that you could have never known w/o reaching out. It becomes about being self-sufficient and realizing when someone is trying to get one over on you whether they know it or not. Pick a grade, who cares, just EDUCATE YOURSELF! Take that time, make those connections, REACH OUT! If anyone wants to know what to look for in CJs, write me, any time, I will respond. Just b/c its slabbed doesn't mean its any good or perfect, don't make the flip the commodity...collect the cards. Sorry if any of this comes off as condescending or arrogant, its not intended and this is how it was done pre-1991. EDUCATE YOURSELF BROTHERS! Last edited by rainier2004; 01-19-2018 at 12:45 PM. |
#56
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A margin of error doesn't really have a place in card collecting. You would have to take it upon yourself to decide that a grade is subjective. I don't need a guy to tell me my card is in "Fair" condition with a margin of error between "Poor" and "Very Good".
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#57
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How can you have a margin of error on an opinion (which all that a grade is, ultimately). How would that work - "I believe the grade is a 6, but my opinion may be wrong" ?
I could see the authentic vs non-authentic determination having a margin of error, but not the grade.
__________________
Looking for a T206 Jimmy Lavender Cycle back plus several American Beauty and Tolstoi backs for Providence players. Successful sales transactions with jamorton215, gorditadogg, myerburg311, TAFKADixie, jimq16415, Thromdog, CardPadre Last edited by Rich Falvo; 01-19-2018 at 01:00 PM. |
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However, doing such things as registry numbers charts and rankings are, quite simply, a joke. There's nothing wrong with it as a game, but people actually take it as serious and it effects values and prices. Last edited by drcy; 01-19-2018 at 01:33 PM. |
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#60
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I agree about the registry. That's why I'd love to see TPG's simply authenticate cards and leave it at that. The numbering system, as discussed, is so flawed that it's become nothing more than a marketing scheme when it was supposed to standardize the hobby. There is no standard though because cards get different grades on different days. I say do away with them entirely and simply authenticate.
Last edited by packs; 01-19-2018 at 01:56 PM. |
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__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#62
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The registry system is also the "tide that lifts all boats" and is the reason the card market is booming, in my opinion +/- 4 points.
__________________
-- PWCC: The Fish Stinks From the Head PSA: Regularly Get Cheated BGS: Can't detect trimming on modern SGC: Closed auto authentication business JSA: Approved same T206 Autos before SGC Oh, what a difference a year makes. |
#63
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"Only when the tide goes out do you discover who's been swimming naked." - Warren Buffett
Last edited by drcy; 01-19-2018 at 03:23 PM. |
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The registry is artificial though. A 10 could be a 7 tomorrow because there's no consistency day to day. Collectors should decide what cards are worth paying for.
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#65
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A 10 will always be a 10 because collectors will always pay for the flip.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#66
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Some collectors apparently do that
Last edited by ALR-bishop; 01-19-2018 at 04:16 PM. |
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Steve, over .0001% of 29 million things is not 3,000, it's 30.
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#68
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My math is bad, but the right math makes the margin of error a lot smaller. I'm really sure more then 30 items have made it through PSA that really shouldn't have. |
#69
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I know you did. But as they say, technically correct is the best kind of correct.
I'm not sure what he meant by we would be in deep **** valuewise if it was proven that 30 cards got through undetected. I'm pretty sure that NM/Mint collectors would have over 10% altered cards in their collections. |
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I have no idea about percentage, but with the number of people I know to be card doctors, and the number of years they have been doing it, and some sense of how many cards they work on, it adds up.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#71
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May your collecting bring you joy in any event, Larry PS: I believe it was Mastro that said that any pre-war card graded higher than a "7" had been tampered with. Buyers of TPG "8's" and "9's" from that era--caveat emptor! Last edited by ls7plus; 01-19-2018 at 08:48 PM. |
#72
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Good luck in you collecting, and hopefully Michigan will eventually give the Spartans and Oh how we hate Ohio State better competition in the future! Larry |
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And he probably had something to do with more than one of them. I don't doubt that assessment. I'll never forget one of the first times I realized all was not as it appeared. It was a group of Allen and Ginters, all graded 8. They looked skinny as hell. Another formative experience was a dealer friend observing that certain guys who bought his well-centered EX and EX MT cards at shows seemed to have the same cards in 8s at the next show.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 01-19-2018 at 09:43 PM. |
#74
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I believe grading is extremely valuable for exposing those hard to see flaws. When you see a sharp lower graded card, you know there is something lurking. Now if the flaws of the card were also included on the flip, then maybe just an "A" grade would work. However those flips would need to be pretty big to accommodate that and slabs would increase in size as a result. |
#75
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I find this thread troubling on a personal level, for some of you might consider me both a “card” and a “doctor”. It is amusing though to expand the concepts related to the hobby into other fields. The proposal of listing flaws on the flips instead of a numerical grade, I find interesting for two reasons.
First consider if you will old people instead of old cards. As a group we would be spared the humiliation of being graded 1, 2 or 3 with nary a 10 in sight in our retirement enclaves. Our flips would be too large to lug around though and too long to read for practical social events. I suppose we could carry credit cards with embedded chips and have access to ubiquitous chip readers though. Second consider the field of Plastic Surgery, the true “villains” of medicine. Restoration, augmentation and flaw ablation is their bailiwick. In the world of “people flips”, their work is judged by third party graders, spouses and mirrors. If your wife was a 4 pre-operatively before the face lift or boob job, and considers herself a 6 after the procedure, the plastic surgeon is successful and rewarded. Maybe it should just be called “Grade Bump Surgery”. The same type of analogy could be applied to your automobile susceptible to both fender benders or a total loss as the result of an accident. The total loss or “beater” ends up in the collection at a junk yard. The fender bender though is rewarded with a trip to the Body Shop, where the goal is the ultimate grade bump to 10. Corners are restored, centering or at least symmetry is achieved and inevitably a little color is added, before delivery. So, whether graded or not, fear not for your cardboard collection. Just remember that when purchasing cards, always remember to utter the following. SHOW ME THE CARDFAX But don’t ask the ladies about their plastic surgery or look for their scars, just compliment them on their beauty.
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FRANK:BUR:KETT - RAUCOUS SPORTS CARD FORUM MEMBER AND MONSTER NUMBER FATHER. GOOD FOR THE HOBBY AND THE FORUM WITH A VAULT IN AN UNDISCLOSED LOCATION FILLED WITH NON-FUNGIBLES 274/1000 Monster Number Nearly*1000* successful B/S/T transactions completed from 2012 to 2024. Over 680 sales with satisfied Board members served. If you want fries with your order, just speak up. Thank you all. Now nearly PQ. Last edited by frankbmd; 01-20-2018 at 07:39 AM. |
#76
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Where's Wonkaticket when you need him? 😃 I know there could be a great photoshop image that could be inserted here. 👍
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#77
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"SHOW ME THE CARDFAX
But don’t ask the ladies about their plastic surgery or look for their scars, just compliment them on their beauty." Sage advice, Frank!
__________________
Seeking very scarce/rare cards for my Sam Rice master collection, e.g., E210 York Caramel Type 2 (upgrade), 1931 W502, W504 (upgrade), W572 sepia, W573, W575-1 E. S. Rice version, 1922 Haffner's Bread, 1922 Keating Candy, 1922 Witmor Candy Type 2 (vertical back), 1926 Sports Co. of Am. with ad & blank backs. Also T216 Kotton "NGO" card of Hugh Jennings. Also 1917 Merchants Bakery & Weil Baking cards of WaJo. |
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Frank you’re hilarious!!
Last edited by ullmandds; 01-20-2018 at 10:35 AM. |
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Great writing there, Frank!
I'm sure some slabbed cards out there in both low grades and high grades have been "improved." End of the day, for this collector, it comes down to the old saying, "It's a foolish dog that barks at a flying bird." If I like a card, I'll buy it, then enjoy it. Nice, happy, and simple. No point in wondering, let alone fretting, over where she was before meeting me She'll never tell me the truth anyway! Last edited by MattyC; 01-20-2018 at 10:30 AM. |
#80
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Look at it this way...
Before third party graders, perhaps the amount of doctored cards that were purchased by unsuspecting souls was even higher.
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#81
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__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#82
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If you've got $20,000 invested in a specific grade (9 versus 8), all this stuff is something to keep you up at night. If it's a low grade T206 common, you'll sleep just fine. I joke that my mom's so cheap that even if something turns out to be a fake she underpaid. My mom has a large painting on her wall, and after looking up close at it I informed her that it was a reproduction. She said "That's okay. I only paid $3 for it at a garage sale." Last edited by drcy; 01-20-2018 at 12:10 PM. |
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The result of my posting was that I was labeled a trouble-maker and basically told to shut up by more than one Net54 member. As long as there is money to be made, none of those who are profiting want to hear about it. Who's profiting? Most of those who collect slabbed cards. The same is true on the autograph side, which is why you will see autograph experts going after the low-hanging fruit (blatant forgers who set up their own TPA's, which none of us profit through) and leaving the big TPA's alone. As long as the money keeps flowing everyone is happy.
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$co++ Forre$+ |
#84
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#85
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Just like the law passed some years ago that certain companies must give employees 90-days notice if there may be a plant closure. Since then all employee paychecks give notice that there may be a plant closure. |
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I know it would likely never happen, but duly note that I said put the margin of error on the label, not a different number. The 1% example you use isn't the margin of error, it's a different calculation. That someone calls his dog a cat doesn't make it a cat.
Last edited by drcy; 01-20-2018 at 01:42 PM. |
#87
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But I wasn't referring to margin of error in grading. I was referring to ignoring doctoring of cards for some submitters.
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$co++ Forre$+ |
#88
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How about we just stop trusting flips and make educated decisions for ourselves? It all comes down to capitalism in the end...I for one try to avoid doctored cards and whether its graded or not matters very little in my assessment.
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#89
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When I see the praise being lavished on people I know to be card doctors or who are outlets for card doctors, because they deliver a card timely, it makes me kinda sick sometimes. Well, that's overstating it, but still.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 01-20-2018 at 09:17 PM. |
#90
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Leon Luckey |
#91
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And some of them post on this website with no issues. If I ran the board, they would be "gone with the suspension."
__________________
-- PWCC: The Fish Stinks From the Head PSA: Regularly Get Cheated BGS: Can't detect trimming on modern SGC: Closed auto authentication business JSA: Approved same T206 Autos before SGC Oh, what a difference a year makes. |
#92
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Ok, so who are they?
__________________
Leon Luckey |
#93
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Could you please share? I'm sure we would all love to hear that and Leon already seems interested.
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#94
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Gone With The Stain... Dick Towle.
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...ighlight=towle I thought the clue would be more than obvious. Guess I was wrong.
__________________
-- PWCC: The Fish Stinks From the Head PSA: Regularly Get Cheated BGS: Can't detect trimming on modern SGC: Closed auto authentication business JSA: Approved same T206 Autos before SGC Oh, what a difference a year makes. Last edited by swarmee; 01-21-2018 at 11:36 AM. |
#95
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Some of what he does I guess you could argue about, but he admits he takes out wrinkles.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#96
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Leon Luckey Last edited by Leon; 01-21-2018 at 12:26 PM. |
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Much appreciated; I always thought it was bizarre he was allowed on this site.
__________________
-- PWCC: The Fish Stinks From the Head PSA: Regularly Get Cheated BGS: Can't detect trimming on modern SGC: Closed auto authentication business JSA: Approved same T206 Autos before SGC Oh, what a difference a year makes. |
#98
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My gut tells me, after a bit of dirt/staining has been purposely added to hide this restoration, it is ver hard? Quote:
I appreciate the education lesson, however. Thanks for starting it.
__________________
52 Topps cards. https://www.flickr.com/photos/144160280@N05/ http://www.net54baseball.com/album.php?albumid=922 Last edited by irv; 01-21-2018 at 03:59 PM. |
#99
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Built up corners are straightforward to identify.
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#100
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Coming from a guy with 30 years experience... right? If the corners are rebuilt with modern paper, those will flouresce under a black light. However, ones built using donor T206 cards would not, based on the article above. Under a high power microscope, it might be easy as well. But to the regular Joe buying cards, it's not really a thought I have when purchasing cards. I just assume it hasn't been done and probably won't look for it.
__________________
-- PWCC: The Fish Stinks From the Head PSA: Regularly Get Cheated BGS: Can't detect trimming on modern SGC: Closed auto authentication business JSA: Approved same T206 Autos before SGC Oh, what a difference a year makes. |
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