SHOELESSJIM & Vintage Investment ebay situation

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Posted By: davidcycleback

I sell photos in varying sizes and a good percentage of my buyers are foreign. A practical problem for me is I don't know what the shipping charge of a 11x14" photo to Denmark will be until I'm charged at the post office. I can guess if asked, but I don't know what they my shipping charge will be before I ship, in particular when the photo doesn't fit in a standard envelope or box and will be custom packaged. I'm sure what I charge for foreign shipping is less than my cost.

As a seller I look at what the customer paid minus what my total cost (cost of item, paypal charge, eBay charge, shipping charge, etc, etc). Whether shipping cost is $2 or $18 means nothing in and of itself. Shipping is just one of many simultaneous charges, and I don't consider shipping as an independent, special charge. It's buyers who isolate shipping as a unique, special cost. If a buyer insists on lowering shipping charge $5 and raising winning $5, that makes no difference to the seller. The final answer in the above equation remains the same. The seller would be willing to charge you -$27 for shipping, if the final answer remained the same.

I can promise you when someone offers you "Free shipping," the shipping isn't free. The shipping charge/cost is factored into the price you pay. $25 + ($5 shipping) = $30 + (Free shipping). The reason a seller would pick the latter "Free shipping," even when either side of the equation means the same $30, is because he knows buyers are so focused on that shipping charge.



It can be a Rorschach ink blot with sellers and buyers seeing the same thing differently. Say you ask a seller and a buyer to look at the below total sales prices for the same baseball card.

a) Cost = $15 + $2 for shipping; b) Cost = $10 + $7 for shipping.

The seller might say a and b are the same thing, while they buyer might say they're different.

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Posted By: Tim Newcomb

Since I hadn't complained before the sale I didn't think a refund was necessary, but Jason, if you usually cap postage at $10 and mine was $33, I wouldn't object to a partial refund of shipping. I'd be happy if you wanted to split the difference to account for handling, etc. Whatever you want to Paypal to apspr@msn.com is fine. Or nothing, no biggie.

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Posted By: Jason Duncan

Tim-

Paypal sent.

Jason

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Posted By: Dan Koteles

if stated ,nothing to complain about. Certainly a buyer with concern could have sent an email before shipping, it takes all of what....?

I will email ANY uncertainties rest assured.

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Posted By: Tim Newcomb

I appreciate it-- and will remember it--

Tim

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Posted By: dan mckee

Way to go Jason! You spoke and backed it up with a great gesture! Thanks for your honesty. Tim, my cut is $22.98. Dan.

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Posted By: Anonymous

I don't understand why people are complaining about the new feedback for E-bay. The buyer's only responsibility is to pay for the item. How can a buyer screw up unless they did not pay? If they didn't pay, the seller should obviously still have the merchandise. There's not really a loss in that case except for the hassle of re-listing. You can even offer it to the next highest bidder. However, there's a lot of ways that a seller can screw up.

The old system guaranteed that each party would receive the same feedback. That's why there are sellers with tens of thousands of transactions and 100% positive feedback. Think about it logically. Is that realistic? Are these sellers so good that they had 10,000 transactions and NOT ONE of their customers had a gripe? The old feedback system did not work due to sellers using feedback to retaliate against a buyer. The only time I've received negative feedback was because the guy forgot to ship my order and I emailed him 3 weeks later asking where my order was. He put it in the mail the next day. I left negative feedback. Then he responds with negative feedback! How did I deserve a negative? I paid via Pay Pal 5 minutes after the auction ended! Nevertheless, I received negative feedback.

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Posted By: James Loewke

Here is the proof, of the actual transaction. I called him out on this and I can back it up here.

Leon, I hope you let this e-mail stand. So much has been written about transparency, integrity and trust in auctions and here is a case of one of N54's not telling the truth. A suggestion for you Jason: in the future, when you are going to lie, don't leave a paper trail.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: DDuncanVintage@aol.com
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 09:33:53 -0400
Subject: Re: Your invoice for eBay purchases - item # 350048489845, 160229878416, 3500...
To: shoelessjoe_in_hof@msn.com


Jim-

The description clearly states that shipping and handling is $5 for the first graded card and $2 per additional card. I charge shipping and HANDLING because I pay someone to handle and mail these items. Seems to me like you won these very cheap. I would suggest paying the extra couple of bucks and moving on. I would be glad to keep the cards if you are not happy with the terms I clearly stated. Please let me know your intentions. I know I have paid more than that in the past, but when I get cards really cheap I just pay it as quickly as possible and move on. If you would have won more items I would have obviously capped the shipping.


Thanks
Jason

I replied the following on the 22nd, the next day.

Jason, I will pay the high charge; and it is irrelevant whether I got the cards cheap or not. Furthermore, I just checked again at all three auctions I won and I can not find any statement that says each additional card is an extra $2. It states that insured shipping is $6 and nothing more. I will however, take your suggestion and not be bidding in your auctions in the future. To make a few more dollars on shipping, you just lost a real bidding customer. A check went out in the mail this morning. Good luck to your endeavors in the future.
Thanks,
Jim

He then e-mailed me this letter:

In a message dated 4/22/2008 8:19:53 AM Central Daylight Time, shoelessjoe_in_hof@msn.com writes:
350048489845
Jim-

I stand corrected. I did not have the $2 per additional card posted like I do in my other descriptions. Feel free to send $6 insured total for all 3 cards. I apologize for the inconveinence. Congrats on the cards.


Jason

So in his own words, he admitted his mistake at the time. And this was all it was at the time, a simple mistake. No problem, as I got the cards, even though they were loosely slipped into a padded envelope. If they hadn't been slabbed, they surely would have been banged up. And the shipping is as important as anything and reflects on the entire deal.

Now check what he states at the top of this thread. Judge for yourself. You can also do a search of ebay completed items to confirm this (350048489845, 160229878416, 350048488374). Bottom line here, I was glad to get the cards and left it at that; no feedback left.

As for the negative feedback I eventually gave him. On the surface, he has a fair argument. It does look like he was wronged. But as I stated, I was content to just walk away from the transaction and forgot all about him. Then when I saw him give the same unwarranted BS and grief to Scott, I got angry. Here he was doing the same thing to one of the nicest collectors/people you will meet. And I wondered how many others received the same attacks and nonsense. Well, I had enough and was happy to give him the accurate and warranted negative feedback. The more I thought about it, I came to realize he "earned" the negative feedback. He brought it on himself. I am not some cyberspace crusader for sure, but thought this person's lousy attitude and strong armed tactics needed to be exposed.

Well, those are the facts, draw your own conclusions.

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Posted By: dan mckee

The new feedback system sucks for the seller as a buyer that doesn't pay should be able to receive a negative to warn other buyers. I agree with most of it but if I file a NPB and the buyer never pays and can't prove it, then I should be able to clobber him, PERIOD!

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Posted By: Steve

Ebay should automatically give non paying buyers a neg.


James, points well taken.

Steve

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Posted By: Hagar Henderson

Dan, doesn't E-bay already have a system in place to nail non-payers? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that E-bay contacts deadbeat buyers themselves and suspends their accounts if they do it on multiple occasions. I know one guy at work that got his account revoked for not paying. If E-bay takes action in these situations, there is really no need for the seller to leave feedback. I may be totally wrong on this but this was my understanding.

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Posted By: jay wolt

Hagar - Yes!
With eBay 3 strikes and your out for non paying bidders.
Then again, they can open another account w/ another ID
if they choose to.

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Posted By: Hagar Henderson

Thanks Jay, I knew there was something that E-bay did for these problems. Someone could set up a new account. I don't know how well E-bay polices people that set up new accounts. I work for the largest online retailer in the world and we track problem customers and we have many ways to catch them setting up new accounts. We make it very difficult for repeat offenders to come back.

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Posted By: quan

you can always block new bidders with "0" feedbacks, international bidders, progressive republicans, dirty hippies, bidders you don't like...etc etc. my biggest pet peeve is when sellers won't give positive feedback first like they have something to hide (besides david bryan of course because he's the best!). in those cases i won't leave feedback either.

it's not that hard being a seller for me...collect the money, secure packages with mastro's cardboard cutouts (with their $50 shipping fee they send you about a year's worth of supply), ship and leave feedback the same day...drop a note to the buyer asking to let you know when package arrives, sip some ice tea. i don't do this full time so maybe i don't understand some of the b.s. in this thread...

oh yea i'd also be pissed if i'm charged $10 for shipping and it comes in an $1.29 envelope with minimal effort on the "handling" part, and would have no problem neg-ing the seller last year or this year.

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Posted By: Steve

you can always block new bidders with "0" feedbacks,



I do not think you can do that. You can block bidders with minus feedback though.


Yes I am aware of the so called 3 strikes and your out, actually it is 4 as the first
one you can get erased. My point was sellers could know up front if a buyer
has done that before.

Steve

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Posted By: George Dreher

With the dismal feedback changes, here is how you can block more potential deadbeats:

Go to the eBay UK site and login, then go into the seller preferences. On the US site, it only gives you the option to block deadbeats who have 2 NPB in the last 30 days, but on the UK site, you can set the parameters to block deadbeats who have 2 NPB during the last 12 months. Set it to 12 months and save the changes. Then, go back to the US site and you'll notice that the changes you made are now in effect here also. Then you can sell victoriously!

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Posted By: Jason Duncan

Jim

I was wronged you know it and I know it, you internet tough guy behind your screen! You even admitted that I tried to make it right. Fact is that you and I both know if ebay had not changed the rules then you would have never given me the neg. By the way, your cards were packaged secure and in no danger. You are full of crap if you think I packaged yours non securely. Jim, what goes around comes around. Good luck.

Jason

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Posted By: Steve

This has become a stale issue that's on an endless loop. A lot of younger collectors/future buyers look at this board. We're no longer adolescents ourselves, so please let this die.

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Posted By: B.C.Daniels

you can send 70 pounds of cards at a fixed rate of $8.90 (still)
now,that's not to say insurance or not they may get damaged!
Postal workers do not like boxes and love to throw them around.
I know,my brother is a carriar for over 35 years now and has back problems and tells me even if the box weighs 8 ounces he tosses it across the mail sorting floor. I don't know how much this stuff is worth but i ask to devoid insurance and take the risk if the items are less than $250. insurance too is a rip off.


BcD

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Posted By: DR

Thank you.

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Posted By: Dave F

Wow, one story after another.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Maybe his hired help sent the card to PSA?

<-------------winking smiley

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Posted By: Steve

Again, this does not surprise me.

Steve

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Posted By: Anthony S.

George,

Great advice (reprinted below). Haven't sold anything on Ebay in awhile but if and when I do, that end-around you described via the UK site will come in handy.



"With the dismal feedback changes, here is how you can block more potential deadbeats:

Go to the eBay UK site and login, then go into the seller preferences. On the US site, it only gives you the option to block deadbeats who have 2 NPB in the last 30 days, but on the UK site, you can set the parameters to block deadbeats who have 2 NPB during the last 12 months. Set it to 12 months and save the changes. Then, go back to the US site and you'll notice that the changes you made are now in effect here also. Then you can sell victoriously!"

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Posted By: Jason

I told you I had a friend send the card to PSA with some other A & Gs by mistake and didnt get it pulled off ebay. We had this issue worked out I thought. No need to post it. I offered the refund in the beginning which you said you preferred the card. The card takes time to grade and get back. I said as soon as he can get me a submission # I would contact you and you have been impatient. Please do not post again. More fuel for the fire I suppose! Anyway your refund will be sent tommorrow and if you want the card once it gets back you can call me like I requested earlier today! Also you are incorrect about numerous emails and calls to track me down. You called one time which I thought we had it handled then. Take care.


Jason

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Posted By: Scott Mt. Joy

Ok so i thought I was done with this mess but no. Jason refunded the amount for my four cards and I had to ask him (he did not offer it) to refund the amount over his $10 max shipping he charged me, another $14. He does that and I send out the cards insured and with dc (paying for it myself).

I then left him 19 positives and one negative over all this. My main reason for the neg was I felt I should not have to go through all this and felt leaving only one negative was fair and deserving, I also wanted to let other buyers out there know just how my experience went.

Then I get home and get an email from him saying I will get whats coming to me, I check ebay and sure enough he has purchased my two lowest priced store items and im sure he hopes to leave me negs on both of them. What a bunch of bull, this guy is crazy. So here I am back again letting every one know just what kind of seller we are dealing with. Now off to call ebay and cancel his false purchases, what a pain.

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Posted By: Dave F

Cant you throw out his winning bid as the buyer? I thought you could choose to not sell to a buyer if necessary.

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Posted By: Alan

It will be interesting to see how Scott & Jason treat each other should they meet at the Net54 dinner.

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Posted By: anthony

i couldnt read all the posts to this thread (some were long) so i will say that if the shipping/handling charges are clearly put in the listing, no one should ever complain about them if they are the winning bidder. bidders are responsible for reading the entire listing, and ask questions if necessary

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Posted By: Steve

Even if excessive shipping is listed, the seller is wrong (per policy) to charge unreasonable S&H fees. After reading this thing, I now realize I was unfair on some sales.

http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/listing-shipping.html

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Posted By: Jason Duncan

Scott-


I fully intend on paying for the two items I won. Actually I already paid via paypal. I really am looking forward to the cards. As far as shipping you knew the terms when you bid, and you cannot complain. My fees are acutally cheaper than yours! $4 each for two raw cards I paid. I charge $3 + 50 cents per additional item! GO figure. You are the pot calling the kettle black. As far as how fair you were with my feedback let's let others judge:

1) I refund you fully with paypal per your request.
2) Added REFUND for over half shipping I charged you which you read in the description and agreed to bid on and pay anyway.
3) Took your word you would mail the 4 cards and still never got them back.
4) You neg me AFTER I REFUND you completely + more.
5) You contradict yourself in the neg and even admit I REFUNDED you.
6) So does your auction warrant positive feedback EVEN though you cahrged me more shipping than I charged you per item? We Shall see.
7) Enjoy your weekend.

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Posted By: Jason Duncan

Scott-

By the way I did not request you send my cards back and pay extra for insurance. Do not try to make yourself sound like such a martor. Most people know what kind of seller I am. Ask Dan Koteles, Jim Manos, Toby Peterson, Brian and Mike Wentz, and numerous others. I have done many transactions with these guys with never a problem. I remedied your problem on YOUR terms and you still negged me. Seems like this is starting to happen alot on ebay lately with buyers like yourself thinking you have some kind of control over blackmail into refunds. Well what goes around comes around. I would love to meet you and get your excuse in person sometime.

Thanks alot,

Jason

edited for typos.

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Posted By: george "bulldog" adams

will predict this kid is suspended from ebay within 1 month. bulldog

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

I believe ebay has opened a can of worms and they better put the lid back on quick. My brother got 2 negs tonight because it took a whole EIGHT DAYS!!! for the buyer to get his items.

edited to add: for the time being I am taking a selling break from ebay...not necessarily because I'm afraid to get a negative for no good reason, but it's in the back of my mind. I'll use B/S/T for now. Oh and I shipped out about 20 packages about two weeks ago when I sold a bunch of nonsport cards through ebay and left positives for every single buyer as soon as they payed...more than half of those buyers have yet to leave me any feedback whatsoever. What's the point of a seller leaving feedback anymore?

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Posted By: Josh

Unreal, I am being blackmailed by an e-bay buyer as we speak. I sent the item out the same day he paid for it and it took 6 days to get to him. He wants a full refund he told me or else he is going to Neg me. This is not right and I have never had this happen before. I have a feeling as well there will be a lot of this in the future from the dishonest buyers.

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Posted By: Scott Mt Joy

Blackmail over refund, yea right??? Your help screwed up and sent my 20 auctions in ONE card saver and only 4 of the cards were damaged and you think I'm holding you blackmail. Your negligence cased this hole mess.

I'm also sure you have lots of happy customers, good for you, but I have also seen no less than 5 posters here say they were unhappy with your packaging or your customer service, most were lucky thou and the cards were not damaged. You also have 5 negs from three different people this month on ebay. This isnt one person blackmailing you. Heck I paid you over $400 and I only wanted a refund on $62 plus your own admitted overcharge on the shipping (paid $24 shipping and you max shipping at $10) and I sent you the 4 cards back at my cost.

I also think the neg was deserved (horrible packaging) and thats why I gave it to you.

Seriously does anyone here think I am blackmailing Jason for gain???

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Posted By: Mark L

The new policy will turn the feedback rating into a barometer of customer satisfaction. Only the small time dealer who giftwraps the cards and sends them free overnight will have 100% positive feedback. I suppose that it is something we'll get used to, sooner or later.

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Posted By: Scott Mt Joy

Well jason your paypal was refunded, not happening and ebay has been alerted that you are harrassing me and they will handle any more attempts by you to buy my items.

Yes my store auctions are 4 dollars including shipping and insurance, do you want references on the 3 times someone has bought more than one item from my store and I combined the shipping for $4 to them? Of maybe you should check my past auctons where nearly all of them are $2.35 and .50 additional for other wins. Also I paid your postage fees and the only reason I asked for a refund was you clearly stated in the thread that you cap shipping at $10 and you refunded someone else, so why shoudl I not get refunded?

I also have no problem with net54 members giving their view on me giving you a neg for all this.

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Posted By: Dan Koteles

a simple email and none of this would be being discussed.

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Posted By: Steve

Never mind.


Steve

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Posted By: Jason Duncan

Scott-

Let's keep your posts under the correct thread.


Jason

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Posted By: DR

Jason, Please contact me about the promised refund and purchase you made from my eBay store before I post the sordid details. Have you received the multiple emails and eBay invoices or to busy Net54 posting? I'm unimpressed.

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Posted By: Ted

"I recently hired help in dealing with my eBay items"

then you should train them not to shove as many cards as possible into ONE holder. As a seller I charge 1.65 for GRADED cards..still have less than 5 stars

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Posted By: Rawn Hill

I still love a train wreck.

Rawn

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Posted By: Jason Duncan

David-

Refund was sent as I said. I find your lack of patience disturbing. Do not email me again until you ship my winning card. Any posts from here on out will be ignored. If you have anything more to say just call me and quit hiding behind a screen.

Jason

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Posted By: Steve

I also have no problem with net54 members giving their view on me giving you a neg for all this.


I feel you were to easy on him.

Steve

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Posted By: bigfish

I have never had a problem with any transaction we have done and there have been many. I would let this go and e-mail me if you have a cracker jack Joe Jackson for sale. I am in need of one.

Toby

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Posted By: MW

I too have had many successful transactions with Jason and plan to do more business with him.

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Posted By: Jason Duncan

Toby-

You are about a week too late! I sold the PSA 2 about a week ago. Thanks for the feedback from respectable hobby guys. Mike (hobby stump) is 100% class act as well as Toby. I really appreciate guys like this who are REASONABLE. I have spent 8 years+ on ebay building a flawless reputation only to have it hit 3 times since the new rule. As I did hire help and Scott Joy's stuff was admittingly shipped in a very laxing way, I did more than make up for it as I always do. As far as the other two goons they are not even worth commenting on. This dead horse has been beaten way TOOOOOOO long and I am sure people are tired of seeing it come up to the top. This will be my last post regardless of how many times Jim, Scott, or anyone else says.

Jason

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Posted By: DR

bump