What is a scrap? Please explain.

[mrvster]

keep 'em coming! especially blank backs

[Sophiedog]

Here's oneimg065.jpg

img066.jpg

[ZenPop]

...so... question. (and apologies if this has been answered before)

Is there a general consensus about how this "scrap" survived?
Were they placed in packs? Saved by printers? or both?

I'm guessing both... but still wonder.

[mrvster]

that's a great question....

theoretically, no scraps ever made it to a factory pack( but maybe a fluke that a few got packed in a cig pack, but the probabilities are very slim)

most, were taken home by the original printers, designers, or factory workers......some may have literally been picked out of the trash bins at the factory in manhattan....

these cards eventually made it into collections...

collectors had no idea what they were 100 years ago, and still don't today..



they are like finding little gems in a mine.....

they are incredible and give little clues into how the set was produced...

even after over 100 years ago, new discovers occur and really are incredible..

[ZenPop]

Originally Posted by mrvster

that's a great question....

theoretically, no scraps ever made it to a factory pack( but maybe a fluke that a few got packed in a cig pack, but the probabilities are very slim)

most, were taken home by the original printers, designers, or factory workers......some may have literally been picked out of the trash bins at the factory in manhattan....

these cards eventually made it into collections...

collectors had no idea what they were 100 years ago, and still don't today..



they are like finding little gems in a mine.....

they are incredible and give little clues into how the set was produced...

even after over 100 years ago, new discovers occur and really are incredible..

Thanks so much for the response... I completely agree about amazing they are. They are quickly becoming my FAVORITE thing about card collecting. They're the "Land of Misfit Toys" of cards... and every one is unique.

I guess the reason I assumed that a lot got in the pack is because I've seen some of the shabby quality control in card manufactures today and figure they were probably similar. But your response seems more apt.

One final question: I see the words "Overprint" on listings that I just see as registration problems. Clearly the colors didn't line up... so is "Overprint" just a handy dandy term to stick all misprints under?

[mrvster]

I totally agree with you! I always used the same phrase of the "misfits"

when you hear "over print" , it means the image was actually transferred using a print process and "intentional".....as where a wet sheet transfer would be "unintentionally" transferred as the image....

simply put, overprint means "struck" or "printed"

[Sean]

Hey Johnny, there is something else on that Chance besides the Cycle overprint. Any idea what it is?

[Jobu]

Sean - that looks like one backward Cycle and one forward Cycle to me.

John - while the term overprint can certainly apply to a scrap, for T206 you see the word overprint in a lot of descriptions because for some of the backs they took a completed back from one factory and ran it through the press a second time to print over the original factory name with another. You might be focusing on the front of the card and seeing registration problems because those are really common with T206 but chances are the owner is referring to the back. I have attached photos (not my cards) of one successful overprint and two where the overprint itself was misregistered so that you see the old factory, the new factory, and the block intended to cover the old factory.

[mrvster]

a cycle overprint on front forward and backwards.....id say the forward was a wst, but Chance has a piedmont back on that card!

they appear to be BOTH overprints.....plus Chance is a true no namer here.....i'll try to produce better pics

i'v been offered a ton for Chance, just can't part with it

[atx840]

[edjs]

Since someone asked for scrap from other sets, I posted my Obak, and wanted to post this, but didn't have the scan on my home computer. Here's an E98 (yes, the image is really Irv, not Cy). Anyone else got E98 scrap? To answer the question, I have no idea if scrap from other sets carry any premium, but I guarantee if there is it is no where near that of T206. The Obak cost less than most PSA 2 T212s, and the E98 was about the cost of any other Young in the same condition.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by mrvster

plus chance is a true no namer here

scan0036.jpg


That's interesting. This Tinker overprint is also missing the name. Although a previous owner did write it on the bottom with a pencil.

I wish I had a better scanner.

[trdcrdkid]

Originally Posted by edjs

To answer the question, I have no idea if scrap from other sets carry any premium, but I guarantee if there is it is no where near that of T206. The Obak cost less than most PSA 2 T212s, and the E98 was about the cost of any other Young in the same condition.

When I got those T209s I posted (on eBay around 10 or 15 years ago), they were presented as being badly damaged, and I got them for a correspondingly cheap price. But as several people said in the earlier thread where I posted them, at least the left one would probably fetch a good price today, because it's true scrap with an overprint on the back, apparently from the same sheet as several other T209s now owned by scrap collectors.

[mrvster]

post it!! Ed- great card......you have a great eye....

Sean....interesting..........your Tinker is insane and still makes me drool

Chris, as always you come through! do not take anymore time off!!

[mrvster]

i'll try to get the back posted of Chance....amazingly it's a Piedy

the overprint almost gives Chance a "tattoed face" appearance , something tribal looking...

pretty wild....

Sean...we have true "no namers" here

[trdcrdkid]

mrvster -- I was talking about the T209-1s I posted on page 5 of this thread, and earlier in the "scraps from sets other than T206" thread from a month or so ago.

[ZenPop]

Originally Posted by Jobu

Sean - that looks like one backward Cycle and one forward Cycle to me.

John - while the term overprint can certainly apply to a scrap, for T206 you see the word overprint in a lot of descriptions because for some of the backs they took a completed back from one factory and ran it through the press a second time to print over the original factory name with another. You might be focusing on the front of the card and seeing registration problems because those are really common with T206 but chances are the owner is referring to the back. I have attached photos (not my cards) of one successful overprint and two where the overprint itself was misregistered so that you see the old factory, the new factory, and the block intended to cover the old factory.

Eureka! That's exactly what I was talking about! I was wondering what that was... and was about to post some examples when I started looking at those red bars... and how out of place they look. So that's what they were talking about... Thanks so much!

This place rocks... you and mrvster and everyone else have been so helpful and informative! Cheers!

[Bigb13]

image.jpg

[mrvster]

thanks! they are very cool....

john- really glad your starting to like these scraps...they are very and unique, almost like small "pieces of art" or "little gems" as I like to call them...thanks...I'm here to help, email me anytime!



BTW.....Jim Rivera tipped me off to this secret about the correlation of backs....overprints..and the sweet cap 350/460 fact #30 with no overprint scraps.....

most players aren't available in sc 350/460 f#30(but the super prints are available).......but can be found in a yellow brown printer scrap because they never received the overprint back and final factory stamp/overprint factory designation...

ok....sounds a little confusing but let me explain.....

we hear a lot about YELLOW/ BROWN scraps.....there are 2 "different kinds" of yellow brown scraps.....

first, all yellow / brown scraps are basically missing all colors( except the brown and yellow ink pass) ......hence the term "yellow/ brown printer's scrap....(some have some red, like downey) , but most just have the yellow and brown ink passes.....these particular scraps are lumped into one category called "yellow/ brown print scrap......


but, there are 2 different classes of yellow brown print scrap.....

1)the sweet caporal yellow / brown factory #30 cards no overprint fact desig.

2) all other yellow/ brown backs including blank backs


I do not want to take away Chris B's thunder here, but I want to make some collectors aware of these type of scraps(one day I will write some articles, but I have been trying to keep on the low low in order to obtain these awesome examples before everyone jumps on the band wagon)


I will explain more ....

maybe Chris B, or a few other advanced collectors will chime in here....

[mrvster]

non sweet cap fact #30 yellow brown printer's scrap

[mrvster]

not a -sc 350/460 f #30

[mrvster]

those last (2)

[mrvster]

btw...this is not mine either(I'm so jealous)

[mrvster]

is not a "yellow/ brown" but just had to post it! great card

[mrvster]

"YELLOW BROWN SWEET CAPORAL 350/460 SUBJECTS FACTORY #30"

I own 6 of these type so far( matty, street, konetchy, Sweeney, snodgras, and Mcintyre) and another in transit....


5 of them ARE NOT AVAILABLE WITH THAT BACK! (except for Matty super print).....


meaning.....YOU CAN'T HAVE A FACTORY PRODUCTION CARD WITH THAT BACK!

Street, Konetchy, Snodgras, Sweeney, Mcintyre- THEY do NOT have A factory issued sc 460 F #30 back!!

so, if you want to do a complete back run of one of the 33 KNOWN EXAMPLES sc 460 fact #30 , you would have to obtain one of these


btw...THANKS CHRIS B FOR IMAGES

[mrvster]

a better scan of one

[mrvster]

sc 460 fact #30 scrap

[mrvster]

try to find Sweeney, or street on the sc 350/460 fact #30...DOESN'T EXIST!
only way to get it is one of these particular scraps because it was never finished!

http://www.t206resource.com/Sweet%20...Checklist.html

[mrvster]

with the overprint and the 42 designation! (except for super prints)

http://www.t206resource.com/Sweet%20...Checklist.html

[mrvster]

there are 33 examples of the sweet cap 350/460 fact #30 no overprint documented......there are either 1-4 known examples of each......

gives the total population of 70 something.....

Chris Browne will elaborate more....

he has prelim research trying to assemble a sheet or 2 out of the known examples...

this particular scrap may be the key to unlock the "sheet size" question

btw....34 estimated broadleaf 460's???

kinda makes you wonder

was the sheet comprised of 34???


Chris B....WHERE ARE YOU???

I have said to much....

[mrvster]

beautiful examples of sc 350/460 fact #30 no overprints.....you own some of the few examples of that possible combo.....JUST DOESN'T exist factory issued!!

can only get them as scraps!!

[mrvster]

scrap is my dream card if only that collector knew how lucky he is

btw.....Chris's collage of all the known sweet cap 350/460 fact #30 no overprints...

[mrvster]

Post the Downey / Poland! I almost owned it and I am jealous after 12 + years of just missing it!

[edjs]

Johnny, I do believe you have lost your mind today. Did you have too much caffeine? This stuff is great, though. Carry on.

[mrvster]

LOL! actually I am Whooped

tuf day at the office....but 206 Scrap gets me jacked up

there is a lot I have picked up after 15 years of chasing them.....the incredible thing, is that new examples show up every year.....like unearthing fossils...

they are hidden in lots....ebay....beater lots where no one has any clue what they are....

but each one is a tiny piece of the puzzle...

I have literally almost devoted my entire collection to these and chasing them...

one day they will get the recognition they deserve.....it has just begun

kinda like "discovering brown lenox"

or realizing what a brown om is(btw super rare scrap there also) one of my white whales

[ZenPop]

Originally Posted by mrvster

thanks! they are very cool....

john- really glad your starting to like these scraps...they are very and unique, almost like small "pieces of art" or "little gems" as I like to call them...thanks...I'm here to help, email me anytime!

I will... and thanks again! Totally agree they are gems!

I'll continue to pick off the inexpensive stuff when I can... (Anything over $50 is too much for me...) because there's still fun to be had! Cheers!

[Bigb13]

Here's Mr Poland image.jpg

[mrvster]

I love It!

[Bigb13]

I know you do so do I

[mrvster]

white whale.....I have lost a few like that over the years...

a beautiful card Rob....please give me first shot at it if you ever decide to move it....I have great trade bait

[Exhibitman]

Wet sheet transfer, Howard, and a nice one! Here's a few:

E210 Rice:



1928 Exhibit:



Spahn RC

[Bigb13]

Did you see there was a part ghost image that has a 9kbin on eBay

[Sean]

Yes, it's part of Dan's ebay museum collection.

[Bigb13]

It that is 9k then what do you think Poland is worth?

[btcarfagno]

I owned this one for all of about four days.



Tom C

[Bigb13]

Beautiful card

[Rob D.]

Originally Posted by Bigb13

It that is 9k then what do you think Poland is worth?

Even though I'm always hesitant to assign values to these beauties, it's easily a $25,000 card any day of the week. Rarer than a Broad Leaf 460.

Emoji Emoji Emoji Emoji Emoji Emoji

[Bigb13]

That is the range I was thinking. Beautiful card

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Rob D.

Even though I'm always hesitant to assign values to these beauties, it's easily a $25,000 card any day of the week. Rarer than a Broad Leaf 460.

Emoji Emoji Emoji Emoji Emoji Emoji

I would say 25-35K.

[Sean]

Oh for God's sake stop encouraging him. It's not nice. (When you read this comment, try imagining it in your 3rd grade teacher's voice.)