T210 Joe Jackson on EBay!

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

ebay reserve price listing fee is as follows:

$200.00 and up = 1% of Reserve Price (up to $100)

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Posted By: Harry Wallace (HW)

Marc S.

The Jackson sold for $10,925 against a $4,000-6,000 estimate.

There was also a T210 Stengel in good condition that sold for $1,495 against a $400-800 estimate.

Its amazing that some items such as these sold for 10% or so of their current market values while many others sold for many multiples over what they would bring today. From the people that I talked to, the general consensus was that the items in the auciton generally sold for a big premium over what they were "worth" due to the fact that they came from the Halper collection.

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Posted By: Harry Wallace (HW)

Hal,

I believe that Bill Mastro owns the T206 PSA 5 Wagner.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

I hope that I am DEAD WRONG about this auction.

In fact, I hope that someone legitimate BUYS the card for $225,000 or more!

It sounds like BigEds is a quality guy... so maybe he did just want to sell his card ONLY if someone went crazy on the bidding. I shouldn't "accuse" anyone of anything.

My bad.

I just got perturbed by the "Private Auction" and went off on a tangent.

As a collector of vintage baseball cards... I should be ROOTING for all of them to start climbing higher in value!

After all... we have a LONG WAY to go before we get to the $24 million "Mark Rothko" level!!

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

I think most of us don't like the PRIVATE auction feature on ebay because we can't publically monitor the bidding. That is one nice feature about ebay (public monitoring).

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Posted By: zach

Ya but i'm sure many of the people bidding are rather private and don't want their ebay name assosciated with being able to spend over 100k on a card and have people drawn to there name and look at what else their bidding on or have won in the past.

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Posted By: identify7

The good news is: We are now under the nine day mark!

Only 8 more days of this T210 Jackson Extravaganza left!

Can you take it? What rationalizations, befuddlements, computations, speculations, projections, insights and outshoots are before us?

Tune in tomorrow at a thread near you.

Edited to add:

It would be a pip if someone talked him into ending the auction early right now - and we heard no more about it.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

BigEds is selling the item on CONSIGNMENT and the OWNER is the one who set the reserve...

so this really IS one of those situations where someone who has the card is hoping that someone who wants the card will pay a crazy price and get it!!


I hope someone does!!

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Posted By: BlackSoxFan

Privacy is only an issue if someone makes it an issue Zach. I have plenty of id's on ebay that no one knows belong to me. The few people on here that know one of them only know b/c i let it be known. The idea behind a private auction of this magnitude (assuming it is legitimate) is to avoid having people emailing information to potential buyers and bidders.

Also, the reserve fee is refunded if the item sells (for what it's worth).

Regards,

Black Sox Fan

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

email me

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Posted By: zach

Ted thats what it could be going on or the seller could just be respecting the peoples biding privacy.

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

I don't mind private auctions when I know the seller is reputable. As mentioned, I'm pretty certain that on a high profile card (like this) that Ed is just protecting the bidders names.

At this point someone can bid a dollar below the reserve and then it will boil down to (possibly) the next bid winning it.

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Posted By: robert

Hal,

The criteria for a auction sale to be listed in the database is simple. First the reserve has to be met, Second the card has to have been won by somebody and lastly we do not include BIN's. As well the card has to be graded by either GAI, SGC or PSA with no qualifiers. Authentic in my opinion is not a qualifier but a grade that is less then one, but it seems that a lot of people out there do not realize this fact.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Sounds good!

Count me in as the first subscriber!

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Posted By: JimB

Robert,
I think it is great what you are doing. I beg to differ about the "Authentic" indicator meaning the card is a grade less than one. It simply means the card is authentic and the card cannot be assigned a numerical grade because the grading company does not assign numerical grades to cards with certain attributes - such as being hand cut. The T210 Jackson that Corey bought is a perfect example. It was probably handcut and therefore will not be given a numerical grade, but it is not a pr-fr card. It is probably vg. I have a card in a PSA "authentic" holder which is in ex condition, but was handcut - probably at the time of manufacturing like the T-210 Jackson. I consider it Ex, not less than a one.
JimB

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Posted By: will watson

hand cut cards get numerical grades, as long as they are cut properly

"authentic" means altered in some way, shape or form

it should be considered lower than the pr-fr

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Hal, is that what collectors with expensive cards do? Hunt around ebay auctions for similar cards to what they own and bid with the sole purpose of driving up the price so that their own cards will then artifically be perceived as more valuable? Kind of lame, no?

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Yes and No.

There are 2 very different scenarios.

This is going to sound like a Doyle Brunson poker lesson, but here goes:

SCENARIO #1 (Owner holds high card): A person owns a PSA 4 1914 Cracker Jack Christy Matthewson card... and a PSA 2 of the same card comes up on EBay. If the owner of the PSA 4 bids on this card, then YES, he is "lame" and he is only trying to pump up the value of these cards to serve his own interest. He should "fold" and not play in this hand.



SCENARIO #2 (Owner holds low card): A person owns a PSA 2 1914 Cracker Jack Christy Matthewson card... and a PSA 4 of the same card comes up on Ebay. The owner of the lower card is holding the "nut", because he can certainly bid on the higher card to try and win it so that he can UPGRADE his collection. If he drives the price up but loses, he has at least benefited himself by pumping up the market value of these cards. If he drives the price up and wins, he benefits because he has driven up the market price for the PSA 2 "double" that he now needs to get rid of.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Hal, I agree with both of the scenarios you laid out, basically that if you want a higher graded example of your valuable card, bid away if your intention is to own it and if you lose at least you've propped up the value of your lower graded card. However, that's not what you described previously: you suggested that Corey purposely bid a dollar amount that is just below the reserve in order to give the "appearance" to the world that his card is worth more than perhaps it would be -- if not for his bid. You would never do something like that, would you?

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

No, because there is usually no way of knowing the Reserve amount, so you couldn't do it even if you wanted to.

Then again, I guess someone devious could "overbid" and learn the reserve, and then do it.

But that can ONLY happen on EBAY... and therein lies the fallacy of this logic.

More specifically... it could only happen on a PRIVATE auction with a HIGH reserve on EBay.

And HOW OFTEN do you see true high dollar rare cards like this on Ebay?

Maybe once or twice a year.


I guess someone could "bid up" a lower-graded item on Mastro... but they have to be willing to BUY IT for that price if they win by accident.

BUT...

maybe THAT explains why we so often see the SAME CARDS being auctioned off in several DIFFERENT auctions.

Some cards make the circuit... so maybe it is because people are bidding on something they have no plans to keep.

That ain't me.

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

the card would already be mine. "Having the dough" would mean being a millionaire several times over. You don't invest (spend) 1/4 of your total $$$ on one baseball card. In what way is the PSA 2 not as nice as the Auth?

What a clever way of finding out the reserve!

Even though there are 8 days yet, I guess it's doubtful that ther $224,000 reserve will be met. But it might.

It's not the BIDDING we can't follow, only the BIDDERS! Hehe...

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Posted By: barrysloate

I know Corey well and he would not be on ebay driving up the price of the card for his own benefit. That's not his thing. You are just speculating.

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Posted By: JimB

Will,
That is simply not always the case. Hand-cut strip cards grade because there is an obvious consensus about how individual cards were cut away from strips. Hand-cut T210s will currently only be graded as "authentic" because of the presumption that this is not the way they left the factory, even though it probably is the way they left the factory. The same is true for a wide variety of proofs and other potential scenarios.
JimB

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Posted By: warshawlaw

If the card in question is rare even if you have one you might bid into it to acquire a second one for trade, especially if you could acquire it cheaper than your specimen. Admittedly, the T210 Jackson would be an extreme example, but I know I've gone after valuable (to me) cards I already had if I thought I might get them for the right price and I could use them later on.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Barry, I have no doubt Corey wouldn't bother bidding up the Jackson simply to inflate the value of his own card. How pathetic would someone have to be to do such a thing....especially when they can afford either card.

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Posted By: Anonymous

I doubt the reserve will be met either. but its pathetic ppl think it should be fr-pr when the 92K card is trimmed! i think thats not fair to cards that r complete. i honestly think its worth more than 136k. a trimmed one goes for 92k. a PSA 2 should be threw the roof. look at the eddie plank trimmed the prices of the psa 2 u will c a big change(for example)

Also Ebay isnt the only way to sell it. he can sell it privatly even if the reserve isnt met. like it all depends on how he feels and what he paid for it.

i just dont get also why the wagner is worth more than some other cards that have only 2 or 3 to known to exist. its all hitstory i guess....

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Posted By: Cobby33

Looks like the John Kerry RC to me.

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

...over 6 days left...146K...

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Posted By: identify7

Julie: you ask "In what way is the PSA 2 not as nice as the Auth?"

Wouldn't you agree that the GOOD 2 card has very little top border?
Don't you think that the GOOD 2 exhibits damage to the picture area of the card?
Certainly you notice that the wear on the AUTHENTIC is consistent with that of a higher grade than the PSA2.

And with all that against it - the PSA2 is currently bid at >50% more than the estimated value of the AUTHENTIC.

Perhaps that estimated value is off.

What are your thoughts (everyone)?

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Posted By: jay behrens

As has been pointed out, the reserve is known now and any bidding under tha amount is pretty meaningless unless the the reserve is topped. I could go in and place a bid one penny under the reserve and the bid is totally meaningless since I don't have to pay that amount because it is under the reserv. I could never pay it anyway since it would take about 20 years of my annual income to pay off that bid, but I could still place that bid. Doesn't mean that the market value for the card is now that amount. Money needs to exchange hands for it to have a bearing on the market.

Jay

If you can sue a band for making you want to commit suicide, can I sue Barry Manilow for turning me into a wuss in the 70s?

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Posted By: Corey R. Shanus

How does ebay work? Once an auction begins, is the seller allowed to lower the reserve? If so, and if he lowers it below the highest bid up to that time, is the high bidder at that point contractually obligated to buy the item if he remains the high bidder? If the answer is yes, then even if a bidder knows the reserve and deliberately bids to a point below it, then it can still be said he is at risk to pay what he has bid.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

From Ebay:

When can a seller lower the reserve price?

Before the item has received bids, the seller can add, remove, or modify the reserve price at any time during the active listing. A seller can also lower the reserve price any time prior to 12 hours before the listing is scheduled to end, even if the item has received bids. If the reserve price has been met, the seller will no longer be able to lower the reserve price because the item is assumed to be selling for more than the reserve.


What happens when the price is lowered?

If there are bidders on the item, all bidders will receive an email that notifies them of the price change. Bidders' My eBay pages, and the item page, will also show the price has been lowered.


Will bidders know the new price?

All bidders will not be told the new reserve price; however, if a seller lowers the reserve price below the high bidder's maximum bid, the lower reserve price will be revealed to the high bidder via email. The high bidders' maximum bid will be lowered to $1.00 below the new reserve. This allows the bidder to confirm their interest in the item by bidding again, since the next bid placed will meet the reserve.


Why does eBay need to lower the maximum bid?

The maximum bid is lowered if the new reserve price is below the maximum bid. This is done to allow the high bidder to confirm interest in the item. The high bidder may have purchased another item when their original high bid did not meet the reserve price.


How many times can the price be lowered?

A seller can lower the reserve price as many times as they like, as long as the reserve price has not been met.


If the reserve price is lowered and the bidder doesn't bid again, is the bidder still bound to buy the item?

No. To purchase the item, the bidder must either bid again at or above the new reserve price.


Can the reserve price be lowered in any category?

Yes.


Can Second Chance Offer still be used on the listing after the reserve price is lowered?

Yes. The rules for Second Chance offer are not changed by lowering the reserve price

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Corey:

The reserve can be lowered... but a bidder cannot be "trapped" into buying it.

Their bid is also lowered, and they are given another chance to top the reserve if they wish to do so.

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Posted By: barrysloate

So that means that if the seller lowered the reserve right now to 140K, the bidder who placed the bid of 146K is not obligated to buy the card unless he bids again? Why would he bid again, and why wouldn't he take the card since he was prepared to pay above 140K anyway? If he wasn't bidding in good faith but placing bids just because he already knew the reserve, there should be some penalty involved.

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Posted By: Corey R. Shanus

Ebay's rule does make sense. That being said, then I think Jay hit it right on the head. Any bid placed on an item by someone who knows the item's reserve is irrelevant to determining market value. And since the reserve on the T210 Jackson has been disclosed, I for one won't regard any bidding on it to be indicative of its market value until the reserve has been met.

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Posted By: Corey R. Shanus

presumably the seller, seeing the $146K bid, would not at that point lower the reserve below $146K.

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Posted By: Marc S.

<<If he wasn't bidding in good faith but placing bids just because he already knew the reserve, there should be some penalty involved.>>

Yes - that would not be bidding in good faith. But nor would it be selling in good faith if the seller indicates there is a reserve on a card but then changes that reserve to match outstanding bids.

~ms

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Posted By: barrysloate

Why not? What if the seller had a change of heart and decided that $146K was an acceptable offer, not to mention there is a week left and the bid is likely to go higher. Why shouldn't the buyer be bound to his bid? If you offered me $146K for a Jackson on Monday and I refused, then called you on Tuesday and said I thought it over and I accept, wouldn't you be ethically obligated to buy it, or at the very least more than happy that I accepted?

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Corey and Barry:

What if the seller has ALREADY lowered the reserve on the item to something like $150,000k??

If someone thinks that the Reserve is still $224,000 and bids OVER the new Reserve (thinking that they will still be below the $224k)...

THEN they would be forced to buy the item!

SO... the BIG question is... how will ANYONE know from looking at the auction on EBay whether or not the reserve has been lowered?

I don't think it shows up on the Ebay auction if this happens. I think maybe the only way it is known is if they send e-mails to the high bidders?

Anyone who wants to "be cool" and bid $223,000 on the card is at BIG RISK of exceeding the NEW reserve (if there is one).

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Barry:

To answer your question from a legal standpoint:

NO, if you make an offer to someone and they expressly reject it... then the offer is automatically "off the table" and can never be accepted in the future unless and until it is RE-offered.

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Posted By: barrysloate

You should only bid if you want to buy it at that price. If the bidder assumes the reserve is $225K, and just to be a big shot places a bid of $151K, and then finds out the minimum was lowered to $150K, he better either get out his checkbook, hope he gets topped, or hire a lawyer, because guess what- he's legally obligated to buy it, and he never should have placed a wise guy bid in the first place.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Hal- fair enough in the private offer scenario, but if your offer was reconsidered and you pass, how serious was that first offer?

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Posted By: Marc S.

It depends. When there is a high reserve on a card on Ebay - I often put in a bid to track the item. Not because I want it at that price, but because I want it to show up in My Ebay - and not just on the "Watch" heading, which I don't see much.

I was high bidder at $50,100- for a few moments on this T210 Jackson. I would certainly be happy to buy it at that price - but given the structure of the auction, I would not be obligated to buy it at that price. I don't have too much concern for the bidders here - as the seller understand the situation of reserve auctions. If the reserve is not met - that's it.

Barry - if you follow your logic, if the reserve is not met, and one second after the auction ends the seller offers it to the high bidder at their bid price, the bidder should be obligated to purchase. But I don't think it should be that way - and my experience [as both a buyer and a seller] is that those second-chance offers on reserve auctions are not executed >50% of the time.

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Posted By: Corey R. Shanus

I was curious as to how the $224K reserve was discovered. What I was told was that a bidder has a right immediately after entering a bid to retract the bid. Assuming that is correct, then even if the seller has lowered the reserve to $150K, then a bidder in bad faith bidding above that number would still be allowed to retract the bid. So, bad faith bidding in that scenario would seem to carry no risk at all.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

True Corey.

If someone is out to "circumvent" the rules, they could do it that way as well.

Overbid, see what the reserve is... then immediately withdraw the overbid as "mistaken amount" and immediately bid a dollar below the reserve.

Sucks, but it can be done.

Which is why you are correct in saying that these bids are USELESS in determining the real value of the card UNLESS it actually sells.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Marc- As an auctioneer myself who is currently running an auction I expect anyone who places a bid to honor it. Ebay works differently as there is clearly a reserve but if you place a bid at the last second and the seller says "O.K. I accept it" then the bidder should be prepared to pay. Second chance offers occur after the auction, and ebay rules allow you to accept or reject the second chance (not to mention that many of the second chances are scams).

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Posted By: Elliot

When the reserve is lowered all bidders are notified of the change in the reserve. Since none of the posters on this thread who said they bid have been notified then we know that the reserve has not been lowered from it's original amount. Also, the bid of $150,100 could actually be $1 below the reserve amount, all we know is that it is one increment or less over the next highest bid. In any event, I certainly agree that any information that one derives from a reserve auction on ebay that does not meet reserve, is not full and complete.

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Posted By: Brian H (misunderestimated)

My own selfish problem with the private auction is that it takes a lot of the "fun" out of watchin the auction... Like many others -- I suppose -- I watch items I have no interest in buying (at least at market price) to see who wins and who bids how much. The private auction denies me this somewhat guilty pleasure....

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

224,000,--and it looks to me like he wants to sell the card, and will!

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Posted By: David Vargha

Okay . . . It looks like Hal already addressed this above.

DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

I couldn't imagine that the seller could drop the reserve low enough to make the highest bidder an automatic "winning bid". That just wouldn't be right. Yes, if you bid that much and the reserve was met at the time the bid was entered then you are obligated to buy the lot. But what if you bid on something else based on the fact that you were not able to purchase the other lot (reserve not met) and you were the high bidder and potential winner of that lot? It just wouldn't be right. This leads me to something else.

Recently, I had the second highest bid on a lot with no reserve. My bid was never the high bid, I was outbid by proxy when I made my bid but I did have the second highest bid. The high bidder removed his bid a few days after his high bid was placed. This made me the high bidder. I was then obligated to pay the final price if I were to win the lot. I would have purchased the lot had I won but I was outbid.

In any case does that seem right? I was never the high bidder but after someone removed there bid I was made the high bidder and obligated to purchase the lot. What would have happened if I BIN'd something else for a few grand because I thought I was never the high bidder on the other lot and the auction ended with me the high bidder on the lot (that I was not the high bidder until someone withdrew their bid)? Lets put this into perspective, if a few grand would have strapped me then being high bidder on the other auction would have been detrimental to my pocket book. It wouldn't have seemed fair but I guess that's a possibility on ebay. Sound confusing?