Can we say something positive about PSA or is it always terrible?

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Posted By: MikeU

"About PSA....
Right Now...They are the only company with a quality print magazine for the collectors at this time, Beckett is nowhere as important lately and SCD is just asleep."

If you are speaking of pricing only, then I agree. If you are talking about a magazine, the SGC Collector magazine is better than SMR. It is also better than SCD, Tuff Stuff and Beckett, which does not say much. Only Old Cardboard is a better hobby magazine.

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Posted By: Larry

Hi Mike..

You are right, I meant pricing with overall details about sets and #'s, not necessarily articles..SMR is not the best at that...SGC has a good magazine as does old cardboard and probably better potential, but SMR is still the standard most dealers and collectors refer to, at this time only...

if I need to find out which cards have a relatively higher values such as key cards or key #'s series' SMR has that info pretty easy to find.
Their articles are sometimes informative, registry info is very well renowned, and many dealers do still advertise in there, the look is overall professional but SMR can be improved tremendously...

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Posted By: bruce Dorskind

Ladies and Gentlemen:

As of the 10:45 PM PST on Saturday September 30, 2006
in the three vintage categories

pre 1930
1930-1939
1940-1949

there is a total of 1763 cards graded by PSA and SGC.

Nearly 73% of these cards have been graded by PSA.

In the pre-1930 category PSA has 69% share

In the 1930's and 1940's periords PSA's share is well
over 83%


Therefore, it is evident that PSA is far and away the market leader.

Graded cards probably account for 75% of the value of baseball cards.
Whilst some would like to think of this a gentlemen's hobby where
boys quietly trade pictures, it a big business and one which, with
the proper marketing, regulartory authority and innovative sales
strategy will grow at an impressive rate.

The hobby ony exploded because of grading. Grading enabled collectors
to buy a high end parody product with a reaon degree of confidence.
It has enabled dealers to trade cards like stocks and it has fostered
the birth of the $10 million auction

PSA, whilst far from perfect deserves much of the credit.

Success in buisnes is all about the ability to read the market; anticipate
change and create a killer brand which dominates and eventually
destrous the competition.

PSA has to make certain adjustments in order to enhance its service.

Clearly it is the leader and it should focus its efforts on brand extention,
product enhancement and on destroying its weaker competitors.

At best there is room for two grading services in this business.

Any high end PSA cards that we have aquired within the past year-
particularly PSA 7 and PSA 8 e cards have grown appreciated in
value by at least 22.%

Those of you who attempt to play down the importance of PSA,
whilst free to do so, are fighting the market. That strategy has
rarely worked in any collectibles market which we are familiar.

Bruce Dorskind
America' Toughest Want List

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Posted By: WP

bruce,
I think your figures are alittle off there have been more than 1763 pre 1930 cards graded.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

"SGC does distinguish b/t white and yellow letters in the 58 topps set. If you go to clemente, for example, on the second page of the report, his name is in blue (ie signifying there is a link). If you click it, you get the following:

0 0 8 14 30 24 22 20 19 4 6 4 0 0 0 1 152
White Letters 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1
Total 0 0 8 14 30 24 22 21 19 4 6 4 0 0 0 1 153"

That's just for Clemente. What about the dozens of other variations of which SGC doesn't account for? And the Herrera error card? At first I thought that SGC never graded any of these versions as their pop numbers are so low on this set-but I've seen a few of the error cards in SGC holders. This stuff drives me nuts. While PSA's numbers are all screwed up on the pop reports due to slabs being cracked, errors, etc., at least they have their heads in the game. SGC's registry and pop reports have the looks of third grade art projects. I love their slabs - but am so disappointed by their backup resources.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Bruce- we've had this conversation before but let me reiterate- of all the trends in the hobby I'm not sure making the industry a high stakes playground for the rich and powerful is such a great one. I believe 95% of the collectors really do just want to relax and enjoy collecting cards and want to be taken back to a simpler time when it was more fun. I think the set registry crowd represents less than 5% of the hobby, and likely a lot less. For every collector who wants baseball cards to be traded like stocks there are ten collectors who are turned off by the whole thing. Making the hobby accessible only to the very rich is not a good long term formula for growth. I say sit back, relax, and enjoy it. And yes, while PSA is the name brand, I think it's also been proven that they need to work on improving their product. That has been demonstrated in countless threads on this board.

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Posted By: Jim Crandell

1)PSA saved the vintage baseball card hobby drawing hundreds of collectors back to the hobby who had given it up due to all the card alteration.

2)I think their grading has steadily improved and is on a par with the other two grading companies.

3)The Set Registry was a stroke of genius by David Hall and Joe Orlando has dramatically expanded it. The dominance of PSA is directly attritutable to the Set Registry and for most popular pre-war and post-war sets it has the best sets in the hobby for the most part. The Registry performs a lot of useful functions as far as cataloging sets but is a great means of competition for not only regular sets but player, team, HOF sets etc.

4)The company will remain the dominant card grading company into the forseeable future. They simply have too big a lead and the registry gives them a huge advantage.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

but I just saw this gem on ebay and had to offer it here:



The card is a T218. Here is a T225:



I can see how easy it would be for PSA to confuse the two.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Jim- no doubt third party grading has been a boon to the hobby and has helped cull out altered cards- but we just had a long thread exposing a clearly altered T206 Broadleaf residing in a PSA holder. I don't know about you, but that would make me a little nervous if I were buying very high end and very expensive graded cards. Is that error an exception or possibly one of many?

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Posted By: jay behrens

Barry, I hope that's a rehetorical question. All we have to do is look at the Hall collection cards. The number of cards carrying that label that appear trimmed is inordinately high. While we can't say that trimmed and altered cards are the rule in PSA8-9 holders, there are definately far too many of them in those holders.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: dennis

PSA did not grade the t206 doyle that mr. mint sold to keith olbermann.

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Posted By: Joann

Assume that PSA grades more trimmed cards than SGC. Even considering proportionate number of total cards graded, that appears to be a decent assumption.

If so, I wonder why that is? I'll also assume that PSA is not doing this intentionally and has no interest in damaging their credibility. So what would cause the difference? Less experienced graders? Less time per "look"? Does SGC have something in the graders hands that provides betters clues to trimmed cards? Do they just have better lighting and magnification?

Maybe SGC, because it deals more in vintage, has people that only look at vintage all day long, and get an "eye" for it. Maybe PSA could assign specific people to vintage, better lighting, good instructions, etc.

Joann

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Posted By: Jim Crandell

Barry,

Its an exception. Everyone misses one once in awhile.

I have had very knowledgeable dealers/collectors look over many my pre-war and early post-war psa 8s and out of several thousand they only found a few questionable cards.

Jim

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Posted By: Josh K.

How about this one - I like that PSA is willing to grade a card a 5 even if it has wrinkles and 4 if it has creases and paperloss.

Oh who are we kidding, lets just go with "PSA is always terrible"

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Josh, check out the Plank E 95 card in the Goodwin auction -- it has paper loss and is graded a GAI 5.

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Posted By: Josh K.

I agree - gai is just as bad in that regard.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

I think in the end we all have to agree that at least the big 3 grading companies try to root out bad cards but are clearly not always successful. At least they ostensibly try. But when you see a card graded 5 with a paper loss....and I have a vague memory that either Jay or Lee produced a PSA 6 with paper loss, I might be wrong, you just have to believe that something fishy is afoot.

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Posted By: MikeU

The PSA brand is a very powerfull. However, it is not a stretch to think that all of the current grading companies may not exist in 30 years. So personally, I think it is more important to use someone you trust the most, as you likely will have to cross your cards in 20, 30 or 40 years.

Branding is very important in the short term, I think there are several historical examples of strong brands that the general public thought at one time were infallable. GM, Ford, IBM, Motorola, AT&T and coutless others were untouchable kings at one time.

As for the strenght of PSA's brand, I thought I would provide some past quotes from Mr. Crandell regarding PSA.

1. With GAI soon to have its registry up and running, one of the premeir if not the premeir graded vintage baseball card collections is being crossed over in its entirety from PSA to GAI. This may occur over time but there appears to be no doubt that it will happen. I know why he is doing it(did anyone whisper grading) but I will let him say if he so chooses--great job Joe Orlando--with that winning customer service attitude it certainly won't be the last...

2. A year or two ago I attempted to make the argument to Michael and Greg that altered cards finding their way into PSA holders was a rare occurance--I have a different view now.

3. My first would be If I turn out to be one of your biggest customers and biggest owners of sgc cards am I subject to getting attacked and insulted by the president of your company and would he openly lie in print to try to get support of board members.? If the answer is no, then sgc is already one step ahead.

4. Personal relationships in the hobby mean a lot and Rocchi/Baker are close to a lot of the veteran dealers and collectors. Don't know any that are close to Joe Orlando.

5. While its true that PSA's actions and in particular Joe Orlando's actions have made me a free agent. Mike, Steve and Danny are all friends of mine and unquestionably they have the best grading in the business--I am watching to see how some other things unfold there.

6. Unfortunately yours is a typical experience at PSA. They lost their best two graders to GAI, let two other experienced graders go and according to insiders instituted a one-and-out policy where one only one grader looks at a card before it is slabbed. GAI has Mike Baker--the best grader in the business along with 3 other experienced ex-PSA graders. For accuracy of grading, I don't think its close.

7. Notice that Frank just said--hey Davalillo was right on the fact there wasn't much knowledge among the posters on more than one set. Or would you rather debate PSA's performance on the Rose card...or how wonderful the smr is...or why Dmitri is sending the vast majority of his cards to GAI...or the WIWAG scandal...or why PSA is laying off experienced graders...or the "one and out" policy at PSA. Whoops, thats right--those are facts--better to just slam Davalillo thsn say something thoughtful.

8. My goal has been 100 vintage or semi-vintage(meaning 1960s and earlier in psa 8 or better. Given the deterioration in psa, I will modify that and say 100 vintage sets in psa 8 or better, gai 8 or better or sgc 88 or better.

9. Very very impressive. And I would not have to put up with the president calling me a lowlife or a pos. For those interested in this story, e-mail me privately.

10. In a development that I am extremely disappointed about, my friend Dave Jacobs(the largest owner of psa cards in the world--I used to think I was) is liquidating his collection. Dave was/is a true collector and has rapidly built some very impressive sets.
Using Dave's own words, the reason he is doing this is PSA's customer service. I have highlighted how truly horrific PSA's customer service is in recent posts but Dave says it well when he says "we are constantly being swept under the rug" and the way the treat laymen is a tragedy at best" and "their customer service stinks".
Greg, MW and others have gone into considerable detail about the many problems of psa--many of which I agree with. The prez will no doubt rationalize this by saying who cares--the people on the boards are less that 1% of our business. And because of his attitude, a first class collector is gone from the business...and I'm sad about it...and I blame Joe Orlando.

11. Getting back to my main point earlier--PSA's horrific customer service--I urge all of you to read my friend David Vargha's post today on the PSA Set Registry message board(that is if it isn't taken down). PSA had no more loyal customer than David--just read about how he has been treated by PSA. If you are in the customer service business, you just cannot keep treating your customers with disdain or soon they will be ex-customers.

12. 1)First and foremost, the number of serious collectors and major dealers who are angry at PSA and in particular Joe Orlando continues to grow. Just this week I spoke to two of the best known dealers in the business who for different reasons but what I would call it inconsistent grading and arrogant response by the PSA Prez are beside themselves and resolving to give more of the business to others. Every time I go to a show, as a proportion of total graded cards I see more GAI and SGC cards.
On the other hand, Rocchi/Baker/Fisher of GAI are very personable who have been the face of PSA for years--people want to do business with these guys. I am scheduled to meet SGC management/graders soon and maybe I will feel just as good about them--we'll see. I would represent that many major collectors are now feeling the same way.

2)Consistency of grading. Mike Baker is widely thought of as the best grader in the business. The SGC folks are also highly thought of. With PSA, they have lost or let go experienced graders and it has been reported that in most cases that only one grader looks at a card before it is slabbed with the other person a verifier who looks at the card post-slabbing. Are we really supposed to believe that many cards actually are taken out of their slabs after a verifier looks at them.

3)Lets see what happens after GAI issues the registry and after their dealer meeting in Mexico. It has been long delayed but this could be something which accelerates the shift to GAI.

4)Baker/Rocchi are owners and have a huge vested interest in GAI's success. Joe Orlando is an employee.

People want to do business with people they like--its simple. I am much more inclined to do business with a dealer if I like him personally, everything else being roughly equal. With everything else becoming "equaller" every day, this will become an increasingly important issue. Yes--there is something called customer service.

12. I disagree--there is no harm in speculating. Also it was very helpful when information came out on how many graders psa used to have that made $100,000 or more per year and how many they have that make that now. It showed how they have replaced a lot of experienced graders with new graders.
It was one of the few threads on the psa boards that I bothered to open.

13. Seems like PSA is running scared. Whether its the Rose controversy, WIWAG scandal or something as inocuous as grader salaries, PSA is furiously taking down threads--sometimes as soon as they go up. This leaves such scintillating topics such as Joe Orlando asking for articles...but then saying since he is such a busy man do not respond on the message boards because he hardly has enough time to look at them. I hardly recognize many of the names of the posters on the psa boards these days.

14. The volume of e-mails I am getting from disaffected PSA collectors is staggering--I honestly believe the intelligent ones are seeing the light. More starting to submit to GAI--hopefully this will spread to SGC. Lot of them beginning to criticize the psa prez--but hey the prez told them that they are just 1% of his business and he could give a flying f about them and what they think. Also getting some calls from some national dealers who are sounding concerned. Its starting to get interesting.

15. Nothing Joe Orlando says or does surprises me any more. I have been on the west coast all week. Had dinner with Rocchi/Baker/Fisher and some psa collectors. Story I have heard from two dealers is that Orlando called me a lowlife- pos at Las Vegas summit.

16. Orlando acknowledging his own company's press release that MW1 brought to everyones attention. And then saying don't worry--the virtually useless SMR will continue in its present form--hooray for the PSA PREZ.

17. I have never seen a president of a company quite like Joe Orlando in my life.

Really not worth spending a lot of time on because if he is going to lie and distort thr truth and the board members with their lips closely placed next to Joe's rear all respond oh thank you so much Joe in unison then whats the use.

But Joe there is a funny thing called the truth that you conveniently choose to ignore.

1)I have a pro-PSA agenda. As a large number of serious collectors on the boards have pointed out, I have been trying to make PSA a better company by pointing out all the things you could do better. You not only do not listen--you treat it as a personal attack.
2)")Disrespectful to PSA employees and people on the boards"--this is incredible--I get slammed by your lapdogs who make up all kinds of crazy allegations and I am disrespectful for raising issues. If you had any guts you would throw them off the boards.
3)Joe knows that my stories and sources are real. He knows I know a lot of dealers, major collectors, and he knows I know the competition. Sad he has to lie.

4)This is obviously a person who is in over his head in the job.

Thanks to all the serious collectors who have defended me on the boards and with your personal e-mails--it is truly an impressive list. I appreciate your kind words. For the people with multiple identities on the boards and those who are on just to cause trouble, you got your wish. But as the serious collectors have repeatedly pointed out the boards will be a far less interesting place and collectors will be far less informed about what is really going on.

Joe has told me how much he appreciates my business and my ideas by his actions.

18. I want psa to be a better company. I would love to continue to use psa for all my grading. But there is this little teensy weensy problem called grading accuracy that they have--misgrading and alterted cards that in my opinion is becoming a greater problem.

19. I also have no respect for Joe Orlando--if you read his comments more than anything he is critical of me not the two mentioned above and the trolls. That is simply unbelievable to me. And that he is either giving very misleading answers or outright lieing is also too much to take.

20. I honestly view PSA as the 3rd best grading company currently in terms of quality of grading.

21. I am the largest owner of psa-graded cards in the country(colse to 20,000) and am attempting to build over 100 vintage pre-war and post-war sets in baseball, football, basketball and hockey in psa 8 or better. Some 80% of my collection is baseball. Most cards(over 15,000) I have submitted myself--the others I have bought from a variety of psa dealers. I also try to upgrade any card that comes back from psa in less than a 8.
I have recently become quite disenchanted with PSA and after being a regular poster on their message boards for the past 18 months, have made the decision to stop posting.
Below is a brief summary of some of my views. I could go into any of these in more detail in the future.
1)The PSA president has to be the most customer unfriendly person I have ever seen running a company. My job is to analyze different companies in different businesses and I spend a lot of my time talking with senior managements. Because I am a large customer, I asked him to do certain favors for me--more clerical things--nothing like reexamine a card. Not only was I rudely turned down but then I was insulted. I have shown his comments to other substantial collectors I know and they were stunned. Maybe spending close to $100,000 on grading fees does not make me their biggest customer but I was appalled.
2)The trial balloon that PSA sent out about half grades was a slap in the face to their longstanding customers. Only because it was leaked that they were asking dealers about it, did they admit it. If it was not for the nearly unanimous outcry on the message boards it almost certainly would have happened. I think the president of PSA knew this(how could he have not) but was pressured by management of Collectors Universe to do this
3)I am losing a little confidence in Psa 's grading. Certain vintage cards I see in holders sold by certain dealers look suspicious to me. All I am suggesting is that certain dealers will continue to submit high-end trimmed cards until they grade.
4)The pricing of vintage sportscards in SMR is rapidly becoming irrelevant. The amazing thing is when this is pointed out to the president he defends it and says e-mail suggested changes. He actually wants the collectors to do his price guide. When I point out that he should take the responsibility for putting out a publication with accurate prices he gets angry and defensive. It is obvious he is paying no attention to ebay or even major auctions.
5)Making membership manmdatory and charging you before you can submit cards is not a good business decision.

All of these posts were made on the SGC boards about 2 years ago. In the last two years has:
1. Joe Orlando become and honest and truthfull person?
2. Customer Service greatly improved?
3. Grading consistency greatly improved?
4. SMR greatly improved?
5. Catching alterations and errors are greatly reduced?

I think the answer is no. The only thing that has changed is:
1. PSA let Jim speak at a National luncheon.
2. PSA made Jim a HOF'er collector.

Talk about brand strenght. When you can make a very sucesfful person ignore may negative facts by throwing them a little a food for their ego and everything is back to solid. I would love to bottle that sort of brand strenght.

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Posted By: Bruce Babcock

I sent a card to PSA with paper loss on the front which came back an "8." When I sold it at auction, the winning bid reflected the condition of the card, not the stated grade.

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

Enron had a big market share how are they doing now. The day will come when PSA crashes, I know I wouldn't be going down with the ship. I have always had an open mind but there is just too many negatives piled up against PSA.

On the positive note for PSA, my brain is hurting trying to think of anything.

Lee

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Posted By: JimCrandell

MMikeU,

Wow what a post--that must have taken you a long time to put together--I'm honored.

Yup I did say all those things and I will give you my quick and dirty explanation. I don't agree with your conclusion though. My responses are comments on your points.

1)GAI has been very disappointing in getting their Set Registry up to speed. In part because of this I think certain major collectors who were friends with Steve and Mike did not cross their collections.

2)I think the accuracy of grading has improved. With Baker, Drinkwater and Strauss(?) leaving it created a void. Their inexperienced graders I think have improved with more experience.

3)Joe and I agreed to start over. We admitted we both said things that we really didn't mean.

4)That is still true. Baker and Rocchi are very close to the national dealers--Joe not so much.

5)I still believe that Mike Baker is the best grader in the hobby--no change. Baker and Rocchi are friends of mine. I think the gap between all 3 grading services has tightened.

6)I believe all that is true but things change over time and it has gotten better.

7)The WIWAG scandal hurt PSA and was of concern to many.
Dmitri Young crossing good part of collection to GAI and PSA laying off graders at the time I believe was true.

8_100 sets in PSA 8 or better still my goal.

9)Joe and I agreed to start over without having to settle every point we disagreed upon.

10)Dave is collecting again. Their customer service has improved. I like BJ and her team.

11)David Vargha posts here--he can speak for himself.

12-1)I related the view of two dealers--this is truthful
12-2)Baker is best still in my view. Had a number of people talk to "one-and-out".
12-3)GAI's registry has been a disappointment
12-4)Baker and Rocchi own a substantial chunk of the company and do care. I think they are progressing but at a slower pace than they originally envisioned.They are likable guys and people like to do business with who they like. I have also gotten to know Joe better and found it to be enjoyable to talk to him in person and on the phone.

13)There has been a big turnover in posters at CU.

14)Dave Forman is a long-time friend. I think the growth at SGC has also been slower than expected.

Believe it was a mistake by Joe to call the board members less than 1% of his business.

15)As I said, we both said things we regrtet and have repaired the relationship

16)SMR needs improvement--I still believe this.

17)All was done to try to make PSA a better company. If I had it to do over I would have proceeded differently.

18)Grading has improved some as I said.

19Both said things shouldn't have said.

20)At the time I believed that--close now.

In conclusion,I went over the top. I was concerned with half grades and having to resubmit over 20,000 PSA 8s and I was concerned that grading standards were being loosened at a time when attempts at alteration were increasing. But I went about it the wrong way.

So to answer your questions is Joe a more honest person--he is fine to deal with in person--I would not suggest e-mail. The same has been said about me.

Customer service has improved

Grading consistency has somewhat improved perhaps with the grater experience of the graders.

I hope that the number of alteredcards slipping into PSA holders is reduced--I am concerned about this for all 3 companies.

Lastly, yes I was inducted into the PSA Collectors HOF joing Fogel, Merkle and Louchios. I connsider it a tremendous honor. And I was asked by Mike Rakosi to speak at the Set Registry Luncheon and that proved to be the catalyst to get on good terms with Joe.

Anyway, if you or others are really interested in more details best to e-mail me off line.

Thanks for your interest.

Jim

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Posted By: barrysloate

I think Mike U. has set the net54 record for the longest post, and likewise one of the most provocative. And I am embarrassed to say I have no idea who you are. Is your identity confidential? But I will say this- based on Mike's post and Jim Crandall's response, the only thing I feel confident about is that the entire grading system needs to be reevaluated and perhaps rebuilt from the ground floor up. There is too much erosion of trust and I don't like what I see. Mike's point that the grading services won't hold for 30 or 40 years (I'll be dead by then) is just another way of saying the current way business is being conducted will not survive, and a new business model is needed. Regardless of which of the big three one supports, I just don't think that there is enough collector confidence and I have this nagging feeling that one day the whole industry will implode and have to start over again from scratch. If there is this much controversy in a system that in theory should be entirely objective and detached from any personal relationships, then it is clear that the current model is not working.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Barry,

I have no idea who he is either but he sure went to a lot of time and effort to try to embarass me. Not sure I agree with your bottom-line conclusion.

What I am most concerned about is technology of the card restoration people running ahead of the ability of PSA and others to detect it.

Jim

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Posted By: Larry

Barry-
You hit some very interesting and direct notes..One silver lining, vintage baseball cards are RARE, especially pre 1939, with supply much less than demand, for now. Also, we all share some type of passion for baseball history and we value these pieces of cardboard as much as most assets.

In twenty years, it will be interesting to see if the generations x,y,z even care who HOFers such as James Bottomley or Jimmie Foxx were...That is the real test...

Grading services provide a nice way of protecting and labeling cards,accounting for rarity by population #'s and bar code, providing print and on line services. Hopefully they can endure the changes needed without over compensating, for that too will turn people off, being too lenient or too conservative all have negative impact.

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Posted By: leon

It's only fair that Mike be known...FYS is a forum member, Mike Uhl (hi Mike), whom I have known and conversed with many times. Mike visits many different chatboards, I believe, and is partial to SGC....as many vintage baseball card collectors are. regards

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Posted By: barrysloate

Here goes- I've been thinking about this and I would like to propose some radical changes that are needed. Some will disagree, no doubt. Here goes:

1) Grading fees are too cheap, and should be DOUBLED...no, I take that back, I think they should be TRIPLED! You heard me, but here's what you get in return- more time spent with each card, and more eyes examining it. Collectors buy a raw card for $200, pay $15 to have it slabbed, sell it for $500 and then complain the fees are too high. I say make it expensive but make absolutely sure you get it right, whatever it takes! When I see these bulk deals "send in a hundred cards and we'll only charge $6 a card" I think to myself "cheap prices, cheap service, bad results."

2) END THE PRACTICE OF RESUBMISSION! Get it right the first time, fingerprint the card in a database, and that's it! No more playing games by resubmitting the same card again and again until you get the grade you want. That alone erodes my trust in the system. If there is no objectivity to grading then it is meaningless.

3) I don't know the level of animosity between the big three, but they should get together and set certain grading standards that are mutually consistent. Each company currently has different standards and again it's just a game- who is the most lenient on back damage, who puts less emphasis on bad centering, etc.

These are three suggestions, I elicit others. If things continue the way they are, the whole thing will just continue to be a bigger and bigger farce.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

I believe that PSA used to have two graders look at every card that was graded before it went into the slab.
As was described to me, they went to a one and out system for most cards where the second person sees the card only after it is slabbed.
I would be in favor of paying more for grading in return for better quality grades and increased sophistication regarding card restoration.

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Posted By: MikeU

Jim,

My intent was not to embaress. It was to illustrate the power of the PSA brand. Essentially, they are powerfull enough to piss off greatly, arguably, their #4 consumer (excluding dealers and auction houses). Despite their actions, the consumer remains an advocate and a high level buyer. I would not have posted your quotes to begin with until you posted about the power of the PSA registry and their presence in general. It just reminded me of all your past comments and I felt compelled to make you an example of their power. It is probably the best public example of their poor handling of customers and the consumers willingness to tolerate due to their brand power.

For the record, it did not take much time at all. On the SGC boards there is an option to list all posts for a member. Just click on Dav and click on all users posts and up they come.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Mike,

Okay--I understand. Didn't know it was so easy.

As you may know I tend to get attacked out of left field from time to time on the message boards and I falsely assumed it was another one of these.

Also, after I said I did not know who you were I realized that you were the guy who was doing the price comparison studies of SGC and PSA--that is eye-opening stuff and I am sure the conclusions would surprise the majority of collectors.

Jim

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Posted By: MVSNYC

i was away for the weekend; bachelor party at the Borgata in A/C...it was fun ...anyway, i am bothered by these recent PSA-bashing posts, even after someone created a post to try to collect some positive characteristics of the company...it turns into a blood bath once again...my PSA positives:

1. excellent customer service (cosetta robbins, ernesto, etc), and i have even had many conversations with Joe, and found him to be very interested and concerned about whatever questions i have had (i was the one who contacted him MANY times about merging the Harris pop report into the main T206 pop page, so that way there is only ONE T206 pop report, which we all know was getting to be ridiculous to try and decifer). Joe realized it was a major problem and worked with their IT dept on fixing that over the last few months...and would write and update me about the progress, every step of the way.

2. innovations in the hobby (integrating coin grading technology into the world of card grading, pop reports, set reg, smr, etc).

3. good looking holders, much thinner than the others, and stack better than the rest (a friend in the hobby also pointed out that they even sound cool when "clanked" together).

4. across the board, they command the highest prices realized.

5. ok, so apperantly they have misslabeled a pile of cards, but we are talking about fractions of a percent of the total number of cards graded to date...

* this is coming from a TRUE old-school collector...i collect the cards, not the holders.

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Posted By: jay behrens

The only mislabeling we see here is that of vintage cards. I hate think how many more we would see if we all scoured modern cards a vigilantly as we do vintage cards. Besides, many of the gaffs that are pointed out are inexcusable, like labeling a t206 Heinie Wagner as Honus Wagner.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: MVSNYC

i have sent many cards into PSA (i'm a collector, not a dealer, so that number over the years is maybe only 100+ cards)...out of those there have been many times that PSA has rejected T206 cards sighting evidence of trimming...so for the record, i know a lot of you think they slab trimmed cards, but speaking from experience, they reject tons of cards they feel are trimmed...

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Posted By: jay behrens

Glad you've mastered the painfully obvious. No one said that PSA slabs every trimmed card they get, just an inordinate number of them. So why do you think you exeprience is any different than anyone else?
Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: Josh K.

That settles it - Im sending all my cards to PSA for crossover now that I know how cool the PSA slabs sound when "clanked together."

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Posted By: MVSNYC

...whata tuff crowd.

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Here is something positive:
I am positive that PSA's wimpy term ?AUTHTCT results in collectors getting ripped off every day.

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Barry:

How the grading of cards can be improved is a subject which deserves its own thread.

I will not detract from the important general bitching going on here to address your serious subject. That would be thread hijacking.

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Posted By: Jerry Hrechka

I was searching old topics and found this one an interesting read. Just reinforces my decision to stay away from PSA slabbed cards.

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Posted By: Joe D.

Here are my positives:

-I like the way the slabs stack together.
-And I like that the slabs are on the thin side.

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Posted By: Phil Garry

The only thing I would use PSA for is to grade baseball pinbacks because SGC does not have a holder for those.

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Posted By: JohnKalafarski

Since '33 Goudeys are my major interest, I prefer PSA to SGC. SGC is weak on corners and I like strong corners. SGC holders highlight corners, inviting the eye to behold the frayed corner. One of the honchos at SGC told me that, for them, centering is almost everything. I like pack fresh, original gloss over better centering. For me, eye appeal is the name of the game. The PSA holder is more aesthetically pleasing. I agree with Barry that PSA is too big and more prone to error. I've always found their customer service excellent. They fetch higher prices too. SGC has found a niche in early dead-ball, not my area of concern.

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Posted By: matt m

For the first time in my life, I bought an SGC card today. Usually, I've always stuck with PSA's, but after reading this board for the last 3 or 4 months, I thought I'd give SGC at try. I actually didn't send them a card for grading, but simply bought a card on Ebay that was SGC graded 8 (88). I won't send it to PSA (reholdering)for fear that they would downgraded the card, as they ALWAYS have with other third party graders. Does anyone have horror stories of downgrades, on the reholder basis, from SGC to PSA? (Probably Jim Crandell does) But, do others have tales?

Matt M.