Matty / Johnson / Grove - who's the best pitcher ever?

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Posted By: Bob

When you are talking about modern day pitchers in the last 10 years, how in the heck can you not at least consider the guy who was been the Cy Young winner back-to-back the last two years and is only getted started: Johann Santana???? He could end up being better than anyone in the modern era, especially if he leaves in 2009 and pitches for the Yankees when the Twins can't afford him....

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Posted By: howard

Jay, Mcdowell was great in the 60's for even fewer years than Koufax. Not sure who the best of the 60's was in the A.L. but based on your guidelines I don't see how it could be McDowell.

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Posted By: paulstratton

Babe Ruth. 94-46 with a 2.28 era... 3-0 in the World Series...plus 714 HR's...2,217 RBI's...

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Posted By: jay behrens

from 1964-1970 (I'm a strict decade follower. You start with 1 and end with zero) McDowell was 103-80, 8 saves, 1829 SOs (avg 261/season), his ERA was 20% or better than the league every year and his WHIP was 1.20 or lower every year except 1967 for WHIP and ERA.

There is a real dearth of great pitchers in AL from 1961-70. The greats that did pitch in that time frame either played just the beginning or the end of the decade. Jim Kaat started in 1959, but he was far from the best in the 60s. There just weren't any great pitchers in AL that started their careers in the late 1950s and played in the AL for most of the decade. All of those types of pitchers (Gibson, Marichal, etc) were in the NL.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: howard

Jay, in your original McDowell post you called him the top A.L. pitcher of the 60's which 1970 clearly is not part of. By my definition of the 60's, which includes 1960, Whitey Ford was the best pitcher in the A.L.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Did you noticed that I pointed out I am a strict follower of a decade goes from 1 to 0.

Let me explain, so it's clearer:

when transitioning from BCE to CE, there is no year ZERO. You go from 2BCE, 1BCE to 1CE, 2CE, 3CE, etc. The first decade ends on the year 10CE. You can't have a 9 year decade as decade implies 10. hence, the decade of the 60s runs from 1961-1970.

Ford falls into the catagory of best pitchers that only were only good the first 5 years. His last 2 years are of no importance. McDowell was the only one with any sort of longevity in the decade for the AL.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: howard

Yes, I noticed and frankly it seems like you're tailoring your standards to fit your argument. I don't know you personally so I'm probably wrong. I understand the "year zero" concept but in common parlance the "sixties" means 1960 to 1969. Any lists I've seen of all decade teams use 0 to 9 as the time frame. CD series of classic rock of the 60's do not include songs from 1970. Type "1960's" into a search engine and you'll find site after site dealing with the years 1960 to 1969.

BTW..why are Ford's last two years of no importance? He had an ERA of around two in over 100 innings.

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Posted By: Steve

How about Ruth? as in the Babe?

For those that say Johnson he beat Johnson more time then johnson beat him.

IMO an it is only an opinion the greatest pitcher ever would be Koufax.

lefthanded............

Steve

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Posted By: Jay

It's tough to rank pitchers that you have never seen but I have been watching baseball seriously since the late 1950s and the greatest pitcher I have ever seen over an extended period is Roger Clemens.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Just because everyone is doing something doesn't make it right. People are lazy and it's easier for them to think the 1960s are from 1960-69. On the surface it makes sense, but it's still wrong.

As to Ruth beating Johnson head to head, you have to take into consideration that the Sens were a sub .500 team while the Red Sox had a winning percentage over .600 during the years that Ruth pitched. I don't think Ruth would have come out ahead if their teams were reversed.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: peter chao

Jay,

I suppose if you forget about Negro Leaguers Satchel Paige and Martin Dihigo, Walter Johnson would be the best of all-time. But with Johnson's blazing fastball it's almost no fun saying he's the best.

Peter