How are the deceased still signing?

[Julz24]

I like to collect autographs of Negro League ball players. Recently, I noticed some newer card issues depicting autos of players that have long since passed, sometimes over 10 years ago. I realize these aren't on-card autos, but where exactly did the autographs come from, and how are there 250 of them?

I know this is a total newb question - just putting that out there...

[Bilko G]

I Imagine you are referring to a "Cut signature" card. What the card companies these days do with a deceased player is create a card with a "cut signature" and some times the card companies will make 200 copies of the card or sometimes they will only make 1 or 2 of the cards for an athlete that has a rare/tough or expensive autograph.

These "cuts" come from everywhere. Old scrap books, index cards, blank pieces of paper etc.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Bilko G

I Imagine you are referring to a "Cut signature" card. What the card companies these days do with a deceased player is create a card with a "cut signature" and some times the card companies will make 200 copies of the card or sometimes they will only make 1 or 2 of the cards for an athlete that has a rare/tough or expensive autograph.

These "cuts" come from everywhere. Old scrap books, index cards, blank pieces of paper etc.

As has been discussed in the past on the forum, these cards are no guarantee of authenticity for the autograph.

[mr2686]

I think you're going to find that the dead players are signing almost as much as the live ones. In the case of Mantle and Williams, maybe more. The jury is out on the undead.

[Bilko G]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

As has been discussed in the past on the forum, these cards are no guarantee of authenticity for the autograph.

Yes, as with all autographs, unless you get the auto in person there is no guarantee of authenticity.

[frankbmd]

I understand they are still voting as well.

[Mr. Zipper]

Originally Posted by Bilko G

Yes, as with all autographs, unless you get the auto in person there is no guarantee of authenticity.

There is also no guarantee the sun will rise tomorrow. It's theoretically possible everything we know could end at any moment due to some sort of cosmic apocalypse.

I understand the sentiment that "unless you get the auto in person there is no guarantee of authenticity" and see it repeated a lot here. However, in the case of many, many autographs not obtained in-person, you can be assured they are authentic with a very high degree of certainty.

[RichardSimon]

I just figured it out!
One prior post said that the autographs seem to be coming from Florida and disseminating to other locations.
It must be the fountain of youth has been discovered in Florida just as Ponce de Leon had always said it would be found there. It is reviving all these deceased ball players at the cost to the player of one long autograph signing session.

[Bilko G]

Originally Posted by Mr. Zipper

There is also no guarantee the sun will rise tomorrow. It's theoretically possible everything we know could end at any moment due to some sort of cosmic apocalypse.

I understand the sentiment that "unless you get the auto in person there is no guarantee of authenticity" and see it repeated a lot here. However, in the case of many, many autographs not obtained in-person, you can be assured they are authentic with a very high degree of certainty.

Oh i totally agree with you, thats just sort of a "general rule" so to speak

[Julz24]

Ok, thanks for the replies everyone. That clears up some of the confusion I had.

Although, as far as authenticity goes, I would assume that the card companies would go to some lengths trying to insure these "cut" autographs were verified as authentic before issuing them. Maybe that's a bit naive?

[HRBAKER]

Originally Posted by Julz24

Ok, thanks for the replies everyone. That clears up some of the confusion I had.

Although, as far as authenticity goes, I would assume that the card companies would go to some lengths trying to insure these "cut" autographs were verified as authentic before issuing them. Maybe that's a bit naive?

Probably naive, my guess is they outsource the procurement on a very regular basis.

[bender07]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

Probably naive, my guess is they outsource the procurement on a very regular basis.

I would treat these autographs like any other; be sure to do your homework first.

[mr2686]

Originally Posted by bender07

I would treat these autographs like any other; be sure to do your homework first.

+1

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Julz24

Ok, thanks for the replies everyone. That clears up some of the confusion I had.

Although, as far as authenticity goes, I would assume that the card companies would go to some lengths trying to insure these "cut" autographs were verified as authentic before issuing them. Maybe that's a bit naive?

Julz - nothing personal but that is very naive.
Check out a web page on my site:
www.richardsimonsports.com/hofauto2.htm
Scroll down a while on that page and see the autographs I have illustrated that card companies have put on cards.

[Julz24]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

Julz - nothing personal but that is very naive.
Check out a web page on my site:
www.richardsimonsports.com/hofauto2.htm
Scroll down a while on that page and see the autographs I have illustrated that card companies have put on cards.

I checked out your website and spent about an hour reading some of the various articles. You've done a lot of good research on the authenticity of autographs.

I just don't understand who at the card companies would give the ok to put a cut signature on a baseball card, and then cut off part of the signature. It's totally disgraceful. I always thought card company employees were collectors too. It's just sad.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Julz24

I checked out your website and spent about an hour reading some of the various articles. You've done a lot of good research on the authenticity of autographs.

I just don't understand who at the card companies would give the ok to put a cut signature on a baseball card, and then cut off part of the signature. It's totally disgraceful. I always thought card company employees were collectors too. It's just sad.

For all who don't understand the reasoning of the card companies:
THEY DON'T GIVE TWO SHI-S.
they only care about $$$$$$$$$$
the chase cards are not made for collectors they are made for people who like to gamble that they can find a sucker to pay more for the card than they did.
--
the card companies have put signatures on cards that I would never offer to my customers. They have no shame.

[Exhibitman]

How about this Joe Louis?



As opposed to this one:



Anyone see any inconsistencies? and who dots the "E" in "Wishes"????

[RichardSimon]

The one in the Beckett plastic tomb does not look like any Joe Louis I have ever seen.

[GrayGhost]

The business about putting in cuts that are PARTIAL Autographs is RIDICULOUS. This one is kinda funny. Hillary Rodham Clinton.

All you get is the "Dham Clinton"

for those who don't like her, or Willy, if you say that fast, its funny too., but its sooooo ridiculous, to cut it like that. Its nothing bout legalized gambling, and those are garbage cards for the most part.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2009-topps-s...item27c600c1a7

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

For all who don't understand the reasoning of the card companies:
THEY DON'T GIVE TWO SHI-S.
they only care about $$$$$$$$$$
the chase cards are not made for collectors they are made for people who like to gamble that they can find a sucker to pay more for the card than they did.
--
the card companies have put signatures on cards that I would never offer to my customers. They have no shame.

As a former cad company employee, I can tell you that this is largely true. Even if there are several people who individually care about the end product, the process is so convoluted and broken apart that frankencards are inevitable. The person making the sell sheet and budgeting the product is different from the person making the checklist, who is different from the person procuring the cuts, who is different from the person cutting them, who is different from the person making the actual card. A lot is lost along the way.

In the end, people buy them. So they will keep making them.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by mighty bombjack

In the end, people buy them. So they will keep making them.

BUT those people are not collectors, for the most part they are just gamblers.
I truly wish they would go away and chase a roulette wheel or dice or kings, queens and jacks.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

How about this Joe Louis?



As opposed to this one:



Anyone see any inconsistencies? and who dots the "E" in "Wishes"????

that first joe louis, the beckett one, is bad, not his signature, basically every letter in joe louis is formed incorrectly in one way or another. but i am sure someone overpaid and is now stuck with it. these cut autograph cards specially made as chase cards are ridiculous and horrible. i saw a max schmeling card like that where someone wanted about 350 dollars because it was a 1/1. a max schmeling cut can be had for about 5 dollars.

funnt thing is that the bad joe louis was certed by either psa or jsa, so what can one do?

[travrosty]

http://www.leaftradingcards.com/executive_cuts.php

http://www.leaftradingcards.com/2011..._SellSheet.pdf

that leaf joe louis card is a create your own. now you can create your own cut signature card. Make it an aritificial 1 of 1.

we are screwed.

it has to be a certified auto from psa or jsa to qualify, so that joe louis bad, ridiculous auto was either a psa or jsa certed autograph.

The advertising says to "customize your collection, add value to your collection, make your collection easier to market"

fold up the hobby, it's done.

http://www.leaftradingcards.com/population_report.php

heres the pop report on what has been made so far. make your own stacy keibler card and waste 40 bucks. unless you can find a sucker to pay 200 for it,

only 40 bucks per card to create your own pile of .....

[RichardSimon]

I bookmarked that Leaf page so I know where to turn now when I want to not have a second helping of dessert after dinner. I am nauseous now.
This is the craziest thing I have ever seen in the autograph hobby.
And the wording in their ad: "add value to your collection, make your collection easier to market."
Is anyone stupid enough to think that is true?
If someone sold me some vintage autographs in those plastic tombs, the first thing I do is go for my hammer.
And they only accept the autograph if it has a full LOA from JSA or PSA.
Another bunch of jackasses putting JSA and PSA above everyone else in the hobby.
How about a receipt from Jim Stinson? How about an auction receipt from Leland's? I would take one of those over 10 PSA LOA's.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by GrayGhost

The business about putting in cuts that are PARTIAL Autographs is RIDICULOUS. This one is kinda funny. Hillary Rodham Clinton.

All you get is the "Dham Clinton"

for those who don't like her, or Willy, if you say that fast, its funny too., but its sooooo ridiculous, to cut it like that. Its nothing bout legalized gambling, and those are garbage cards for the most part.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2009-topps-s...item27c600c1a7

These type of cards are the classic example of the card companies philosophies: "Anything for a buck." "Some idiot out there will buy it."
From the sellers ad on ebay:
"GREAT CARD TO HALV IN YOUR COLLECTION"
Yeah, that is what we have here, a halv an autograph.
this one has to go on my website.

[travrosty]

where is the HIllary Rod part of the autograph. this is ridiculous.

i would rather have a stinson or equivalent receipt rather than a psa too.

its psa or jsa or else your autograph is fake -- type mentality and I am pretty sick of it. we see the joe louis didnt quite make it but it must have had jsa or psa, so leaf felt comfortable making a card out of that piece of junk autograph.

[RichardSimon]

Our bad Travis, I think it is the autograph of Jon Louis, the famed uh,, duh,, ??
Now I can understand .

[travrosty]

yeah, his little known brother jon louis.

haha

how either psa or jsa certed this just proves to me they know little to nothing about joe louis' signature.

but not the first time they have goofed up louis' signature. i have seen several others both with psa and jsa certification, including some 8 x 10 signed photos which have been listed on ebay for 4000 dollars.

this Joe Louis autograph would be flagged 5 seconds into my inspection and laughed right out of the building, but either spence or grad or their underlings carefully considered it and gave it the thumbs up? WTH?

Why are these two guys considered by Leaf or anyone else better than all the rest of us? I just don't get it either.

[Exhibitman]

I believe that bad Louis is a secretarial. I have a similar one inscribed that I got a long time ago. The "L" is what made me think of it.

[RichardSimon]

then the Leaf site should list it as a secretarial 1/1 from the Executive Collection. Wow, what an honor for the owner.
What about the rest of us who are not Executives?
Talk about the blind leading the blind.

[travrosty]

People have made their own cards like this in the past, but this is the first time i have seen a credible brand name put to these cards where people can design their own.

leaf, you have joined the greedy ranks of the insert card hucksters.

[Bilko G]

Originally Posted by travrosty

yeah, his little known brother jon louis.

haha

how either psa or jsa certed this just proves to me they know little to nothing about joe louis' signature.

but not the first time they have goofed up louis' signature. i have seen several others both with psa and jsa certification, including some 8 x 10 signed photos which have been listed on ebay for 4000 dollars.

this Joe Louis autograph would be flagged 5 seconds into my inspection and laughed right out of the building, but either spence or grad or their underlings carefully considered it and gave it the thumbs up? WTH?

Why are these two guys considered by Leaf or anyone else better than all the rest of us? I just don't get it either.

The Joe Louis is JSA certed BTW

[Bilko G]

Originally Posted by travrosty

People have made their own cards like this in the past, but this is the first time i have seen a credible brand name put to these cards where people can design their own.

leaf, you have joined the greedy ranks of the insert card hucksters.

you do know this isn't the original Leaf company, right? Or even the one that was around in the 80s and 90s, either, right?



A well known Hobby dealer/businessman named Brian Gray purchased the Leaf name about 2 years ago. Before this Brian Gray had started his own card company called "Razor". Razor made a big splash a few years ago by signing all the top MLB draft picks from 2008 (I believe) to exclusive autograph contracts. These "Exclusives" kept other companies like Topps unable to create autographed cards of these top picks until they actually played an official MLB game. As im sure you guys know, it takes top picks sometimes 3, 4 or 5 years to get into an official MLB game.

Anyways, Brian's card company "Razor" had a bit of a following with the collectors that like top draft picks and top prospects, generally these people are called "Prospectors" as they like to buy in cheap and sell for a big profit if/when the player makes a big splash in the majors. Brian decided though that he wanted a more established name for his company and when the Leaf name came up, he bought it and changed his card company to Leaf. Brian and Leaf are based out of Texas, Dallas i believe but not 100% sure.

[Bilko G]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

And the wording in their ad: "add value to your collection, make your collection easier to market."
Is anyone stupid enough to think that is true?

Actually Richard, there has been a great many of people who have made a ton of money by doing just this.

[RichardSimon]

Now you really upset me .
I can only go by what I buy and sell. I have never even seen this stuff until this thread. I have never been asked by anyone on my mailing list about these "things."
The 1/1 list on their website does not seem to be big enough for anyone to have made a lot of money doing this, assuming that many of those 1/1 were done by different people.
Has anyone seen this stuff on ebay or elsewhere?
Has anyone actually seen them sold?
Not offered for ridiculous prices, actually sold.
Bilko - have you seen these specific items sold? Are you certain that people have made a "ton" of money selling these Leaf autographs? Where were they sold for a "ton" of money?

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by Bilko G

The Joe Louis is JSA certed BTW

I would have guessed jsa. Although i wouldn't have been surprised by either company certing this. I see spence on the "all star dealers" show on tv, and the dealer on the show says he is the best, and spence shows up and plugs in his 30,000 spectral comparator machine and we are all suppose to be impressed. The best? Well, ok!!!!

[RichardSimon]

When I worked for PSA we discussed that machine and the thinking was it was worth buying, even though we did not think we would ever use it. It sounded good to have it was what we thought.

[travrosty]

the way he authenticates on that show is not what happens most of the time in real life i do not believe. he made it look careful and deliberate , but in reality, some of the time they look at a ball for a few seconds, make a determination on it, and put a sticker on it, and move on to the next ball.

They are not putting every ball in the machine like that.

I notice spence touts his 'certificate' in forensics when it serves his purpose, but then badmouths forensics (like in the authentication forum at a convention, when badmouthing it serves his purpose. trying to have it both ways. so if you like forensics, he's your man, and if you don't like forensics, then he's your man too!

[RichardSimon]

When I worked for PSA they had us take a correspondence course from an FDE.
The course was about handwriting analysis. It was offered by an old FDE named Andrew Bradley.
All four of the authenticators received a certificate upon completing this course.
That is all the "forensic" training we had with PSA.

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

Now you really upset me .
I can only go by what I buy and sell. I have never even seen this stuff until this thread. I have never been asked by anyone on my mailing list about these "things."
The 1/1 list on their website does not seem to be big enough for anyone to have made a lot of money doing this, assuming that many of those 1/1 were done by different people.
Has anyone seen this stuff on ebay or elsewhere?
Has anyone actually seen them sold?
Not offered for ridiculous prices, actually sold.
Bilko - have you seen these specific items sold? Are you certain that people have made a "ton" of money selling these Leaf autographs? Where were they sold for a "ton" of money?

I believe the Ichiro from this "product" sold quite well on eBay, but I don't have a number.

[Bilko G]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

Now you really upset me .
I can only go by what I buy and sell. I have never even seen this stuff until this thread. I have never been asked by anyone on my mailing list about these "things."
The 1/1 list on their website does not seem to be big enough for anyone to have made a lot of money doing this, assuming that many of those 1/1 were done by different people.
Has anyone seen this stuff on ebay or elsewhere?
Has anyone actually seen them sold?
Not offered for ridiculous prices, actually sold.
Bilko - have you seen these specific items sold? Are you certain that people have made a "ton" of money selling these Leaf autographs? Where were they sold for a "ton" of money?

Hahahaha, sorry Richard

I shouldn't have said "a lot of people", more like some people. You may be surprised, but there is a market for these cards. You and i may not think they are the greatest but there have been many impressive sales in the past. I was watching many of these last year and can't remember them all, but some of the higher priced sales were Ichiro (like mentioned), Charles Barkely, Obama, Michael Jackson, Ted Williams etc.

Heres a Babe Ruth up for auction right now. What would this cut sell for just normally?? $1500-$2000??

Biddings at $3800 with 3+ days to go still.


http://www.ebay.com/itm/2012-LEAF-EX...item3375745cd6

[Bilko G]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

Has anyone seen this stuff on ebay or elsewhere?

Here Richard, i just looked on ebay, there is a whole wack load on here...

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=....c0.m270.l1313

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Bilko G

Here Richard, i just looked on ebay, there is a whole wack load on here...

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_saca...20cuts&_sop=16

that link goes to the ebay index page listing all the categories.
I am ill enough from seeing that Babe Ruth .
So let me understand this, if I had a G.H. Ruth cut, they would not put it in a plastic tomb for me because there is one already??
I am sorry but ARE PEOPLE FREAKIN' INSANE???????????
Take a $100 autograph, send it to Leaf with $40 and then sell it for multi-hundreds?????
Take a $1000 autograph, send it to Leaf with $40 and then sell it for multi-thousands?????
This is really happening???
P.T. Barnum is now my official hero. The heck with Clarence Darrow, Edward R. Murrow, the Kennedy's, Jefferson, Lincoln, Mark Twain and so on. All in my collection. I have to now get P.T. Barnum. There truly is a sucker born every minute and that famed saying of his makes everything ever said by Mark Twain pale in comparison.
I can actually sort of understand the idiocy behind the card company produced chase cards,, though I think that is nutso too.
BUT THIS is beyond the realm of anything I have seen before.
I don't know what else to say now. But I am sure I can and will say some more later on. This is just too stupid.

[Bilko G]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

that link goes to the ebay index page listing all the categories.
I am ill enough from seeing that Babe Ruth .
So let me understand this, if I had a G.H. Ruth cut, they would not put it in a plastic tomb for me because there is one already??
I am sorry but ARE PEOPLE FREAKIN' INSANE???????????

Try this one...

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=....c0.m270.l1313

If link doesn't work just search "Leaf Executive Cuts"

To answer your question Richard, Yes. I believe this is the second year they have done this now. So yes, once a 1/1 is created for that particular player you can not make another one until the following year, thats if they make another series next year.

The Ruth is insane, i agree. I can't remember the exact end price on the Ichiro, but it was somewhere around $2000.

There is money to be made off these though.

[RichardSimon]

And that plastic tomb is FREAKIN' UGLY.
Not to mention that Leaf's markup on one stinky piece of plastic and one gold sticker is probably 5000%.

[RichardSimon]

That link worked, thanks.
There are 123 of these idiot things on ebay now.
I cringe when I look at it.
And it appears there is a Beckett imprint on the plastic tomb. What does Beckett have to do with this crap?
And I love the Leaf disclaimer at the bottom of the plastic tomb.
These autographs have been authenticated by JSA or PSA but not Leaf.
So as "confident" as they are in this crap they still want to be sure to place all the blame on PSA and JSA if there is a bad autograph.

[RichardSimon]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hank-Greenbe...item519eb8337d

idiotic ,,, this half a Greenberg sold for twice what a whole card should sell for.

AND

I am seeing cards listed for $50,$60 and $70 on ebay. With $40 charge from Leaf, $x charge from a TPA and ebay fees, who is kidding who here. Though I will concede that the vast majority of these cards are priced much higher than that.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Bilko G

Hahahaha, sorry Richard

I shouldn't have said "a lot of people", more like some people. You may be surprised, but there is a market for these cards. You and i may not think they are the greatest but there have been many impressive sales in the past. I was watching many of these last year and can't remember them all, but some of the higher priced sales were Ichiro (like mentioned), Charles Barkely, Obama, Michael Jackson, Ted Williams etc.

Heres a Babe Ruth up for auction right now. What would this cut sell for just normally?? $1500-$2000??

Biddings at $3800 with 3+ days to go still.


http://www.ebay.com/itm/2012-LEAF-EX...item3375745cd6

The greater fool theory is alive and well.
This "thing" sold for $3100 in February. Naturally with the passage of such an extraordinary amount of time it is worth much more money now.
But remember the Tulip Mania came crashing down and people went broke.

[Bilko G]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

What does Beckett have to do with this crap?

As im sure you know, Beckett and JSA have been working together for a few years now. If you have in-person autographs on sports cards you can get JSA to authenticate them and then BGS will encapsulate them. Same sort of idea here. Beckett did the encapsulating of these Leaf executive cuts. If the item was already authenticated by either JSA or PSA, then Leaf made the card and Beckett incased it. If the autograph that was sent in was NOT authenticated yet, then JSA would first authenticate, then Leaf would make the card and BGS encapsulate. Beckett and Leaf are also both located in Dallas as well, so im sure it was easy and convenient for them to get together on this project.

The Babe Ruth is now over $4000.

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

I am seeing cards listed for $50,$60 and $70 on ebay. With $40 charge from Leaf, $x charge from a TPA and ebay fees, who is kidding who here. Though I will concede that the vast majority of these cards are priced much higher than that.

Im sure large submitters and/or friends of LEAF got deals on some of the submission charges.

[thecatspajamas]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

I am seeing cards listed for $50,$60 and $70 on ebay. With $40 charge from Leaf, $x charge from a TPA and ebay fees, who is kidding who here. Though I will concede that the vast majority of these cards are priced much higher than that.

There's also the distinct possibility that some of these things have sold for what they should sell for, and someone took a bath on the fees to construct them in the first place. I've bought whole collections of PSA slabbed autographed cards before where the amount I paid for the collection was less than the cost of the slabbing, and then turned around and sold many of them for less than what the slabbing would cost, but still turned a profit. I feel sorry for whatever collector sunk so much money into all that plastic in the first place, but it doesn't always ensure that the value of the card is increased by at least the cost of the slab.

On the other hand, maybe some of these sellers have come to their senses and are looking to get those monstrosities out of their collections asap