Where have all the T206 uncut sheets gone.... ?

[ScottFandango]

Great research Ted, i admire the detective in you!

Any info on the Doyle hands up?

Shouldn't this card be considered the honus wagner of of the set (only about 12 known examples)

Are we destined to keep the rarity list the same forever or will someday the Doyle be worth more than the Wagner?

I wonder about this often, especially since TPG and pop reports were not available 20 years ago, it seems we have a better idea about TRUE rarities with new information we have at our fingertips....

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by ScottFandango

Great research Ted, i admire the detective in you!

Any info on the Doyle hands up?

Shouldn't this card be considered the honus wagner of of the set (only about 12 known examples)

Are we destined to keep the rarity list the same forever or will someday the Doyle be worth more than the Wagner?

I wonder about this often, especially since TPG and pop reports were not available 20 years ago, it seems we have a better idea about TRUE rarities with new information we have at our fingertips....

Thanks Scott....I appreciate your kind words.

Pardon me for correcting your number; but, there are only 8 known Joe Doyle error cards. And, as you said....this card is indeed the toughest in the T206 set.
Will it ever sell for more than an equivalently graded Wagner. I don't think so. The Wagner card has been "hyped" up for too many years and will stay on top.

Best regards,

TED Z

[Leon]

Nice thread T-Rex.....Doyle will always be tougher but no way does he get to Wagner's cult status and value, imho...

[steve B]

Ok, the 19x33 sheets size makes a lot more sense than the 12x 18 I'd considered. There are a few things that don't entirely make sense to me if I assume they're all from one sheet.

The first bit is a gap in my knowledge. The superset spreadsheet shows 8 of this group as being available but unconfirmed with El Principe. and 4 as not available. Is this old data, an error, or was there a reason? All are unconfirmed, so I'd think it was merely an error?

How do you account for Magie? That card fits the pattern of the 150 only series. a bit better than Plank.
I'm still picturing multiple sheets one with wagner withdrawn and replaced with Brown Cubs the other with Magie withdrawn and replaced with Brown Cubs. Maybe only two sheets.

The top 150 would seem to support this, as of the entire group the only one outside the top 150 is Brown Cubs.

Plank is a bit of a puzzle, but I think the bit of packing log while it's for hindu on one side and some other unknown cards on the backgives a hint. It specifically states on the back the packing is for "other than Phila territory" or sweet caporal backs "for Phila territory"
It bears some further consideration that perhaps Plank was either included or excluded from the Philadelphia area packs, or possibly that Powers with the 649OP was included either specially for Philadelphia or as a replacement for Plank. Although the dates don't make much sense unless Powers was included as a tribute.
The other plus to that theory is that as a 150/350 card a Plank could have snuck out due to back stock getting the Piedmont 350 backs.

Lesser points about the technical end of things.

I can't find any way to agree with the sheets being hung up to dry. In a proofing dept yes, but not in production. There just isn't the time. A rough guess based on the possible 370 million Scott Reader proposed as a high production number, 144 cards to a sheet and 5 seconds a sheet to do the hanging equals roughly 89 weeks of labor per color. The way the presses stack sheets in the outfeed area provides a bit of air between sheets and that's all that is required.

The process was more than 6 colors, at least for some printings. The ones not usually recognized are in Italics.
Yellow, black, brown, blue, light blue, dark green, red, pink, Gray/tan
I'm positive about blue/light blue being two individual passes, as well as red/pink. I'm less certain about gray/tan. That one could be part of the brown pass which sometimes is more gray.
Here's the upper right corner of Batch showing blue/light blue clearly.

Steve B

[mkdltn]

There is a color called Buff as well-its the flesh tone.

[Ronnie73]

I agree with Steve that the sheets were not hung. Old presses used air suction to pickup and move the sheets and also to dry them. The inks that were used, would dry quickly. The ink is so thick that a putty knife would have to be used to spread it evenly in the tray that contacts the ink rollers. During use, thinners would have to be added to the ink tray because the ink would dry into one big stickey chunk. If anyone has ever used bondo for autobody, the ink is thicker than that.

[glchen]

Slightly off topic, but most people have said that the Gretzky Wagner is trimmed. I suppose this would mean that it was trimmed from a "jumbo" Wagner rather than sheet cut since uncut sheets don't exist?

And speaking of the "jumbo" cards, would this mean that these were on the top or bottom row of the sheet or just miscut?

[wonkaticket]

"Here is a scan of the 12 subjects that were the start of the T206 press runs in the Spring/Summer of 1909. These cards were initially printed with the PIEDMONT and SWEET
CAPORAL brands. The Wagner card was discontinued due to his claim "of not endorsing cigarette smoking". Connie Mack's biography tells us that Connie Mack and Eddie Plank
were strongly "anti-tobacco" and did not want their picture associated with tobacco cards."

Really Ted? If Wagner was in the first run where is the 150 Sovereign or Hindu Wagner Ted?

A lot of the first series cards are found with other backs as well Hindu, Piedmont, Sovereign, Sweet Cap Wagner cant be found with anything other than handcut Piedmont same goes for Plank.

So I fail to see how Wagner & Plank were in the first runs of T206 if so I'd be looking for a Hindu and Sovereign Plank & Wagner. Unless you are saying that Hindu and Sovereign were printed way later?

BTW love to see your new Magie card when you can.

John

[tedzan]

Hey John

The PIEDMONT brand was ATC's "flagship" tobacco product. Followed by the SWEET CAPORAL brand. Therefore, these original 12 subjects
were first printed with these two advertising brands. Actually three backs, since at that point in time SWEET CAPORAL production was split
between two Factory's (#25 and #30).

The Wagner "controversy" occurred Spring/Summer of 1909 when the first SWEET CAPORAL cards were in circulation and American Litho.
removed his card very quickly.

Now, the yanking of the Plank most likely occurred concurrently with the removal of the Wagner card for either of the following reasons......

1....It is a documented fact that Eddie Plank was anti-tobacco. Most likely he followed Wagner's actions and informed ATC to remove his
card from circulation. Eddie was a low-keyed guy and did not receive the fanfare that Wagner got. A simple "cease & desist" order accom-
plished this back in those days.

2....Or, the Plank cards were simply discarded along with the Wagner's when they were discarded. I base this scenario on the statement that
was made when the "Gretzy Wagner" was being shopped around in the mid-1980's at the Willow Grove show......that it originally was cut from
a panel of which the Plank card was adjacent to it. This info went "underground" for many years. But, it recently was revealed when Charlie
Conlon's PIEDMONT Plank surfaced in the REA auction.

In any event, the brown HINDU and SOVEREIGN press runs were subsequent to the PIEDMONT and SWEET CAPORAL press runs. And, by then
the situation regarding Wagner (and perhaps Plank) was over and done with....they were discontinued.

The HINDU tobacco products were produced at Factory #649 in Rochester, NY. ATC refurbished and modernized the old Kimball plant and this
plant was in operation in the Summer of 1909.


T-Rex TED

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by steve B

Ok, the 19x33 sheets size makes a lot more sense than the 12x 18 I'd considered. There are a few things that don't entirely make sense to me if I assume they're all from one sheet.

The first bit is a gap in my knowledge. The superset spreadsheet shows 8 of this group as being available but unconfirmed with El Principe. and 4 as not available. Is this old data, an error, or was there a reason? All are unconfirmed, so I'd think it was merely an error?

How do you account for Magie? That card fits the pattern of the 150 only series. a bit better than Plank.
I'm still picturing multiple sheets one with wagner withdrawn and replaced with Brown Cubs the other with Magie withdrawn and replaced with Brown Cubs. Maybe only two sheets.

The top 150 would seem to support this, as of the entire group the only one outside the top 150 is Brown Cubs.

Plank is a bit of a puzzle, but I think the bit of packing log while it's for hindu on one side and some other unknown cards on the backgives a hint. It specifically states on the back the packing is for "other than Phila territory" or sweet caporal backs "for Phila territory"
It bears some further consideration that perhaps Plank was either included or excluded from the Philadelphia area packs, or possibly that Powers with the 649OP was included either specially for Philadelphia or as a replacement for Plank. Although the dates don't make much sense unless Powers was included as a tribute.
The other plus to that theory is that as a 150/350 card a Plank could have snuck out due to back stock getting the Piedmont 350 backs.

Steve B

Steve B

Much to respond to here, so I'll try to focus on your major points.

1st....The El Principe de Gales (EPDG) back is found on T206's printed in all the other series....but, not on this series of these 12 subjects. The EPDG
back was first printed starting with the 350 series cards and continued to the 460 series cards.

2nd....As you know, the MAGIE card is simply a typo error of the Magee (portrait) card. This Magee is a 150/350 subject. Therefore, although the
MAGIE (error) card exists only with a PIEDMONT 150 back, he is not considered a 150-Only subject.

3rd....The only 350 backed Eddie Plank card is with a SWEET CAPORAL 350 Factory 30 back which was stuffed into cigarette packs out of this NYC
plant. Tobacco products from this Factory were distributed in the New York-New England area. And, it is very interesting that the ATC log you noted
was labelled......"other than Phila territory".

If I understand your comment correctly, it sounds like they were continuing to issue the Plank cards; but, keeping them from view of Mr. Plank or his
boss, Connie Mack. If so, it sure was a very dumb attempt.

4....The Mike Powers tragedy was felt all over the BB world of that era. So, it's not surprising that certain cards of his were double-printed in order to
make them more available to the BB fans.


Good questions.


TED Z

[steve B]

Thanks Ted

1 I guess it's just an error on the spreadsheet. Good to know, now I just have to figure out how to remove the EP blocks.


2 I'm coming to think that the Magie and Magee should be considered as individual cards, Magie a 150 only and Magee a 150/350. I makes sense that if the error was in an early sheet and replaced they would have had to redo the brown artwork with the correct spelling and laydown an entirely new plate with the corrected version later, late enough that it ended up in the 150/350 group.

3) My thoughts change constantly on Plank as I learn more about that one card. considering your answer clarifies some of what I'd been thinking but didn't state well first time around.

I thought Plank was on an early 150/350 sheet rather than a 150 only sheet, but that seems wrong now finding out that the only Piedmont 150 ones are hand cut.
The Philadelphia area and other than philadelphia being treated differently at factory 649 doesn't directly affect Plank of course, but probably does affect Powers.
But the other factories would have used the same sheets, so if for instance Plank was removed after printing a small batch of SC 150 factory 30 and Powers added in extra quantity that might explain the Plank being so tough.

My thought on the 350 Plank - And now that I know there's only one that bit seems more likely- is that they were either using some of the sheets with the pulled cards as the make ready sheets and one got into the stack of production cards. It happens sometimes.
So I guess it could technically be considered a wrongback T206.

I'm not sure about the factory discarding particular cards. It could easily be done at the cutting stage but it's a bit labor intensive. I'd also expect a stack of one of the withdrawn cards to have turned up. It's a lot easier for a worker to stuff a handful of a card he's throwing away into a pocket than it is for them to bring home an entire sheet. Not to mention how attractive American Lithos trash must have been to the local kids.
Stopping production and simply not printing them would have been far easier.

Johns Point about the advertisements showing Wagner only coming out later in the summer of 09 seems to throw a wrench into both our theories. I just don't know enough about typical magazine lead times and publishing dates of that era. I'll have to do a bit of thinking on the timeline and some looking at my old magazines to see what I can find.

Steve B

Originally Posted by tedzan

Steve B

Much to respond to here, so I'll try to focus on your major points.

1st....The El Principe de Gales (EPDG) back is found on T206's printed in all the other series....but, not on this series of these 12 subjects. The EPDG
back was first printed starting with the 350 series cards and continued to the 460 series cards.

2nd....As you know, the MAGIE card is simply a typo error of the Magee (portrait) card. This Magee is a 150/350 subject. Therefore, although the
MAGIE (error) card exists only with a PIEDMONT 150 back, he is not considered a 150-Only subject.

3rd....The only 350 backed Eddie Plank card is with a SWEET CAPORAL 350 Factory 30 back which was stuffed into cigarette packs out of this NYC
plant. Tobacco products from this Factory were distributed in the New York-New England area. And, it is very interesting that the ATC log you noted
was labelled......"other than Phila territory".

If I understand your comment correctly, it sounds like they were continuing to issue the Plank cards; but, keeping them from view of Mr. Plank or his
boss, Connie Mack. If so, it sure was a very dumb attempt.

4....The Mike Powers tragedy was felt all over the BB world of that era. So, it's not surprising that certain cards of his were double-printed in order to
make them more available to the BB fans.


Good questions.


TED Z

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

Ted,

There are (2) Piedmont Wagners that I know of both I think most would agree are trimmed or hand cut although one does reside in it’s wonderful PSA 8 holder. This card (PSA 8) is also the cornerstone of the grading industry yet the sheet mate Plank gets the AUTH years later too funny but I’m getting off point here LOL.

My point is taking Sovereign out of the mix, even taking Hindu out of the mix and focusing solely on Piedmont the ATC’s anchor brand as you say. Then answer this…..
Why can I get all the original 150 subjects with Piedmont 150 (not to mention Sovereign & Hindu) non hand cut such as the (2) lonely sole Wagners? Same goes for Plank 150’s of which there are (3) lonely hand cut cards one missingcolor too boot.





If Wagner & Plank were in the 150 first printing pass as you you claim then the smoking gun would be out of the 40-100+ Wagners everybody talks about why only two hand cut Piedmont Wagners? Same for Plank also.

John

1......Again, you agree with me regarding the PIEDMONT Wagner and Plank cards were "sheet-mates". We are making progress.

And yes, it is quite paradoxical that the Gretzky Wagner was graded as a PSA 8 card in the 1990's. While, in recent years, the Charlie Conlon Plank was graded as
an AUTHENTIC card by PSA. Although both these cards originated from the same source.

2......First, make no mistake, in the big picture....T206's with PIEDMONT backs outnumber T206's with all the SWEET CAPORAL backs by a factor of approx. 4 to 1.
This factor takes into account all cards of these two major brands that were tallied in two independent T206 surveys (18,000+ randomly sampled cards). You can
sample 100,000 - T206's and this ratio will not change that much.

With respect to the Wagner & Plank cards, it is obvious to anyone that the only brand of these two subjects that got into cigarette packs is the SWEET CAPORAL
brand. Why their PIEDMONT counterparts never got into cigarette packs remains a mystery, given the predominance of the PIEDMONT cards.

Now, consider this....if Wagner & Plank were NOT in this first press run; but, were printed subsequent to it (circa Summer/Fall of 1909) these two guys would also
have HINDU and SOVEREIGN backs....as the other 10 subjects in this initial press run have.

Furthermore, thanks for posting that 5-card strip with Wagner on it. It was a pre-production piece custom made, (supposedly) for the purpose of swaying Wagner
to permit ATC to include his image in the T206 set.

That being so, this strip supports my contention that the Wagner card was indeed printed very early in the game and was in the original 12 cards.


TED Z

[Runscott]

Ted - quit arguing with John and send me the Plank info I asked for

[wonkaticket]

Ted,

One last time I do not agree with you that Wagner and Plank were on a sheet together for the first 150 production run of cards. I have explained that very clear above.

The Sporting news ads for these cards listed three major brands Piedmont, Sweet Caporal & Sovereign as the first place for folks to go buy them when they announced the 150 series of these cards. If Wagner & Plank were in the very first sheet runs of these cards we would have them with all three brands and they wouldn’t be the rarity they are today.

http://t206resource.com/Sporting%20Life%20Ads.html
Check out this site you might learn something...kidding...but here are the ads for the other folks to see.

When they were added, why they were pulled, how they were pulled is anyone’s guess. But it’s safe to say if they were in the first production run if so I’d have them in my collection today with diff backs and they wouldn’t cost me or anyone else six figures plus.

“Furthermore, thanks for posting that 5-card strip with Wagner on it. It was a pre-production piece custom made, (supposedly) for the purpose of swaying Wagner to permit ATC to include his image in the T206 set. That being so, this strip supports my contention that the Wagner card was indeed printed very early in the game and was in the original 12 cards.”

Pure speculation and fantasy. It proves nothing. I produce mocks all the time for pre-production of goods they have very little to do with the true initial production runs and many mocks and molds aren’t brought into production until way later in the production or marketing process. Sure they are thought out ahead of time but that doesn’t mean they make the first cut.

Ted much of these things you present and argue as fact are just wild ideas with very little substance to back them. In fact if anything there are more holes in your ideas than solid direction and insight. It’s ok to have theories we all have some but very few of us argue and present them as fact. The only fact here is unless a sheet or notes lands in our laps we will never truly know.

Unrelated Note: Do I think that Conlon’s Plank came from off the same strip from the back room trimming yes I think it is very likely. BTW this is not your theory or insight either Ted about the McNall Wagner trim job this story has been passed around the hobby forever. As far as the Conlon Plank the plausible sheet mate you found about that when the card went of in REA. You’re not posting anything new for me to agree with you on so there’s no progress to be made.

John

P.S. Where’s the beef…or should I say where’s the Magie?

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

The Sporting news ads for these cards listed three major brands Piedmont, Sweet Caporal & Sovereign as the first place for folks to go buy them when they announced the 150 series of these cards. If Wagner & Plank were in the very first sheet runs of these cards we would have them with all three brands and they wouldn’t be the rarity they are today.

Realizing I am probably just continuing to amuse myself....

John, early advertising could have included Sovereign, even if Sovereign wasn't printed until after Sweet Caporal and Piedmont. And certainly, if there were suspected issues with printing Wagner and Plank, ATC would likely have limited their printing (as they obviously did), and one way of doing that would have been to only print them on SOME of the Piedmont and Sweet Caporal runs, and NONE of the Sovereign runs.

There is no reason that Ted's line of reasoning should be considered invalid simply because there aren't Sovereign-backed examples.

okay, ignore me and carry on with your 2-way discussion...