Shoeless Joe Jackson

[mighty bombjack]

I can't find them right now, but I have seen the splits for Jackson on the games that the Sox won and lost in that series. I believe that the fixers instructed the players as to which games were to be lost, and Jackson not only hit poorly in those games but also committed fielding errors. It speaks to his talent how well he hit when he was allowed to, and that's why he had such a high average for the series.

Can anyone find those splits for us?

Also, I'd like to add that not every collector is a moralist. Talent often comes with great personality flaws, and humanity can be very collectible.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by mighty bombjack

I believe that the fixers instructed the players as to which games were to be lost, and Jackson not only hit poorly in those games but also committed fielding errors. It speaks to his talent how well he hit when he was allowed to, and that's why he had such a high average for the series.

I find this counter-argument to Joe's .375 average incredibly implausible. That any MLB hitter was so gifted that he could hit .375 in a World Series, while all the while throwing away at bats - would infer he would have been able to hit something like .700 or .800 if he was actually trying; it is absurd. To me whether he took the money or not is open for discussion - whether he threw the games is not.

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by Matt

I find this counter-argument to Joe's .375 average incredibly implausible. That any MLB hitter was so gifted that he could hit .375 in a World Series, while all the while throwing away at bats - would infer he would have been able to hit something like .700 or .800 if he was actually trying; it is absurd. To me whether he took the money or not is open for discussion - whether he threw the games is not.

Well, here are the splits:

Game 1, Reds win 9-1, Jackson goes 0-4
Game 2, Reds win 4-2, Jackson goes 3-4
Game 3, White Sox win 9-1, Jackson goes 2-3
Game 4, Reds win 2-0, Jackson goes 1-4
Game 5, Reds win 5-0, Jackson goes 0-4
Game 6, White Sox win 5-4, Jackson goes 2-4
Game 7, White Sox win 4-1, Jackson goes 2-4
Game 8, Reds win 10-5, Jackson goes 2-5

In White Sox wins, Jackson goes 6-11 for .545 avg
In Reds wins, Jackson goes 6-21 for .285 avg

From Baseball Almanac: "Joe Jackson had batted a Series-leading .375 but acknowledged that he had let up in key situations."

From wikipedia: "Some believed that most of his offensive potency came in games that were not fixed and/or when the game appeared out of reach." (The World Series by Cohen, Neft, Johnson and Deutsch cited)

So many point to that .375 and say he couldn't have been involved. I say differently.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by mighty bombjack

In White Sox wins, Jackson goes 6-11 for .545 avg
In Reds wins, Jackson goes 6-21 for .285 avg

You realize that in games where your star hitter doesn't do well, you have a significantly smaller chance of winning, and that has nothing to do with cheating, right?

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by Matt

You realize that in games where your star hitter doesn't do well, you have a significantly smaller chance of winning, and that has nothing to do with cheating, right?

All other things being equal, I'd have to agree, but they were not equal.

You realize that there WAS a fix in this series, and that Jackson at the very least knew about it, right? (maybe you don't, given that you quoted the stats but edited out the mention of Jackson admittedly letting up in certain situations)