What's hurting the vintage card hobby?

[mintacular]

It might catch their attention but passerby customers aren't going to pay big bucks for players they've never heard of, despite the the age/rarity/eye appeal of said cards...

[nolemmings]

I don't believe the hobby is growing too slowly, and I don't want it to grow any faster. The economy in general has forced some people to forego or cut back on hobby expenditures across the board, I would guess--still alot of folks out of work and fighting to save their houses. Still, when I look at my saved ebay "you won" emails from over the past many years, I see prices have climbed steadily on most all prewar stuff, so demand is surely there. Auctions have increased in terms of both the number of auction houses and in frequency, and while there is some turnover of high ticket items, there's no shortage of continued "new" material, so supply hasn't disapeared either.

In short, the hobby is fine, IMO.

[benjulmag]

When I was a kid in the 60's, the current cards as a practical matter had no value. We flipped them, handled them, put them in our bicycle wheels spokes. In other words, we enjoyed them for what they were, not for what they were worth. That to me is how someone develops a passion for collecting. In contrast, when my son collected cards, he and his friends seemed to put too much focus on what the cards were worth and whether they were in immaculate condition.

So with all the focus today about investment value and slabbing comes the cost of making it much harder for kids, tomorrow's serious collectors, to develop their passion for collecting.

[FUBAR]

i think the forgeries and scammers are what is hurting us the most... plus, its pretty hard to find a clothespin to put a card in your spokes anymore!

[JP]

I wish eBay sellers like rawoysterman would go away...

[chris6net]

I think the local shows in the big cities like where I live NYC cater more to autographs and 50,s and 60,s cards more than ever before. I can remember the Hofstra and White Plains shows having a ton of vintage 10 years ago not to mention the Philly Shows. CN

[FUBAR]

i do feel like a lot more of the true pre-war vintage cards are being kept in collections rather then traded. Ebay has allowed pre-war collectors more access to these cards and many sellers have taken advantage of that and put them into auctions rather then shows. You get a guaranteed sale in an auction.

[teetwoohsix]

You have a good point Pat,but how else would a new collector of modern cards ever get exposed to pre-war,or become inclined to learn the history and who some of these players were unless it is made available to them?

They may not spend big bucks on them the first time they see them,but they may begin an interest in the cards that gets them to buy their first one,,and then,it's all over !!!

Clayton

[dstraate]

Originally Posted by mintacular

It might catch their attention but passerby customers aren't going to pay big bucks for players they've never heard of, despite the the age/rarity/eye appeal of said cards...

I really think that's the essence of the problem. Most names that pull up nostalgia for the good ol' days are guys like Ruth, Mantle, Mays, Aaron, DiMaggio, Etc.

Many people who have 5K of expendable income want to connect with those days, those names.

The much older cards require an appreciation of the history, how the hobby has evolved. (An esoteric niche not geared for mainstream appeal). Maybe it's for the best. If everybody wanted Old Judges, you can rest assured they'd be even harder to come by.

[JasonL]

"It's the economy, stupid!"

Upward spiraling asset values cover all the blemishes, get people excited, maintain interest, etc...

[Tony Gordon]

In my observation, based alone on the large number of venues where cards may be purchased today, the vintage card hobby is extremely healthy. When I first began collecting in 1975, my only options for obtaining cards were the corner drug store, trades with friends or the flea market. Today I regularly purchase cards from five or six private auction houses, eBay, and card shows -- with each possessing tremendous amounts of inventory.

In addition, I have been selling cards since 1979 when the old man loaded up my shoe boxes and set me up at the local flea market. Today, I sell cards on eBay and at local card shows every weekend. In this lousy economy, I'm selling more cards than ever before. Turn out at three of the four local card shows has been terrific. The fourth show, not so good, but I go because the few guys that show up and the other dealers are great people and I enjoy their company.

There are always kids buying vintage cards at each of these shows. Each kid I talk to has a surprising amount of baseball history knowledge. Today, baseball history is a mouse click away.

Sure there is fraud and a criminal element out there, but it has always been there and will be around wherever and whenever money is exchanged. Through websites like Net54, conversations with other collectors and dealers, it's easy to learn how to spot the frauds, fakes and criminals.

I think the hobby is in great shape. My only issue these days is convincing my wife that I should buy more cards instead of redoing the bathroom.

[Bosox Blair]

Originally Posted by Tony Gordon

In my observation, based alone on the large number of venues where cards may be purchased today, the vintage card hobby is extremely healthy. When I first began collecting in 1975, my only options for obtaining cards were the corner drug store, trades with friends or the flea market. Today I regularly purchase cards from five or six private auction houses, eBay, and card shows -- with each possessing tremendous amounts of inventory.

In addition, I have been selling cards since 1979 when the old man loaded up my shoe boxes and set me up at the local flea market. Today, I sell cards on eBay and at local card shows every weekend. In this lousy economy, I'm selling more cards than ever before. Turn out at three of the four local card shows has been terrific. The fourth show, not so good, but I go because the few guys that show up and the other dealers are great people and I enjoy their company.

There are always kids buying vintage cards at each of these shows. Each kid I talk to has a surprising amount of baseball history knowledge. Today, baseball history is a mouse click away.

Sure there is fraud and a criminal element out there, but it has always been there and will be around wherever and whenever money is exchanged. Through websites like Net54, conversations with other collectors and dealers, it's easy to learn how to spot the frauds, fakes and criminals.

I think the hobby is in great shape. My only issue these days is convincing my wife that I should buy more cards instead of redoing the bathroom.

Hello Tony,

Very positive feedback there - nice to hear! Mind sharing what part of the world you are in? (Just curious to know if experiences differ depending on where you live.)

[EDIT: I see from another of your posts that you are in the Chicago area. Good to hear the hobby is strong there!]

Cheers,
Blair

[calvindog]

Fraud mainly. Greed doesn't help, especially annoying when it causes people to commit minor frauds just cause they think they can get away with it. Hypocrisy is also bad, especially when it occurs in an effort to hide fraud (mainly because of greed). And once some of the degenerates are forced out of the auction business the hobby will also improve.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Fraud mainly. Greed doesn't help, especially annoying when it causes people to commit minor frauds just cause they think they can get away with it. Hypocrisy is also bad, especially when it occurs in an effort to hide fraud (mainly because of greed). And once some of the degenerates are forced out of the auction business the hobby will also improve.

With the possible exception of one grand jury target, and the disposition of that remains to be seen, do you really see anyone being forced out?

[ChrisStufflestreet]

Fun.

I began collecting when I was 6 years old, a time where my attention span ran pretty quick from Star Wars to baseball to Superman to Emergency! to what was on the radio to playing with my friends to whatever else just happened to catch it. Some of my first cards followed those interests -- Star Wars, Superman and baseball were among the first subjects I collected in '78/'79, with Wacky Packages following soon after -- but I'd have never kept at it if it wasn't fun.

My friends and I traded them, played games with them, competed over who could get the most. As time went on and my friends began finding other interests, I still enjoyed them. Without my chums, I still did stuff with the cards like sorting through them, organizing them in different manners and working towards getting a set every year. I was a terrible math student until it hit me that the statistics on the back of my cards were math-related. So the 6th grade C student in basic math was an A student in precalculus as a high school senior.

Even today, they're fun. I write about them, and enjoy showing off the ugly ones in my collection. It's not about the money, in fact I don't even have a price guide that's less than 5 years old and don't subscribe to VCP. My daughter has a collection too, based on what she likes...not by what return it might bring her in the future.

When I was a kid, we played with cards. Not a whole lot of them survived our abuse. Then, people began comparing price trends and encouraging collectors to put large numbers away without using them for what the Cardboard Gods intended. When I was a weekend seller between 1989-'92, there were 11 year-old kids who had memorized the values of all the hot cards in the latest Beckett. Hell, when I was 11, there was still a kid in the neighborhood who used a card and a clothespin to make his bicycle sound like it had a motor.

Anything that makes this hobby fun will help keep collectors interested.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by JasonL

"It's the economy, stupid!"

Upward spiraling asset values cover all the blemishes, get people excited, maintain interest, etc...

+1 on that.

I'd also add that the much-maligned label "advanced collector" has a place in this discussion. It is necessary to differentiate between different collector styles and degrees of sophistication when analyzing the "vintage card hobby"; you can't just toss it all into one basket. When I first started out collecting, the natural place to start was with the leading lights in the modern (at the time) game--Hank Aaron, Johnny Bench, Joe Morgan, Pete Rose--plus some well known old timers--Ruth, Johnson, Cobb, Matty, Gehrig--in mainstream vintage sets. As I developed an appreciation for the cards themselves, reads more about their history, learned about variations, etc., I naturally moved on towards older, more obscure and rarer issues. I'd say that advanced collectors lead the way into the more remote corners of the vintage universe and collect very differently from people who are relatively recent to the field. Modern card collectors may never cross over to vintage card collection and when they do they might not ever move away from T206, Goudey, Play Ball, etc., and into Zeenuts, E cards or whatever else there is out there. What's most important, IMO, is making room in the hobby for everyone's particular niche(s) so that no one interested in collecting is turned off from the hobby. That's the best way to grow the collector base.

Oh, and free food and drinks at the National.

[J.McMurry]

The much older cards require an appreciation of the history........

I think that is what drives most vintage collectors. (NOT investors)