Kurt's Card Care

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Lucas00

It's a big deal and shouldn't be done ever unless it's plain water being used to remove excess foreign material, or from a scrapbook.

There are cards in slabs that were cleaned with chemicals now showing signs years later of regression (stains coming back, creases popping back up etc. And no pressing out creases never truly removes them) and in my opinion pouring chemicals on paper probably accelerates natural deterioration of the paper. Watch Orlandos video of his card he bought that had no stain originally but now shows the nasty stain that was chemically removed years prior.

Not to mention the clear loss in clarity that occurs. Sure the cards look brighter, but dramatic detail is lost, again showcased perfectly in Orlandos video. I can see it the most around the subjects face it is almost akin to taking a card that is perfectly focused to slightly out of focus.


https://youtu.be/KYCkxXUb9u8

I like Orlando, but he doesn't know what he's talking about in that video. The stain was always there. You can see it in the before photo. The images he posted for before and after just use drastically different settings for contrast, brightness, exposure, etc.

At one point, he holds the PSA graded copy next to the SGC copy and claims that any color differences they have are due to "chemicals" being used on the card (nevermind the fact that the one he claims was altered actually has *better* color). This is of course nonsense. Then he starts talking about how if the stain was present when PSA graded it then they would have given it a 2 and not a 6. Again, this is nonsense and demonstrates remarkable ignorance of PSA's grading standards. They regularly assign 6s to stained cards even to this day. I could post numerous examples of them.

Most cards that were removed from scrapbooks like this one were simply removed with water. If the glue is water soluble, it will come out easily with just water. No "harsh chemicals" necessary. If the glue is not water soluble, then you would need a solvent that is so harsh that it would destroy the card.

Furthermore, this claim that we don't know the long term effects of soaking cards and that it poses serious risks is also nonsense. People have been soaking cards for more than a century. There is a long established history of the effects of soaking cards. There are millions of soaked cards in slabs. Properly cleaning and soaking cards preserves them. It does not destroy them. There is an entire field dedicated to the preservation and safe restoration techniques of paper artifacts.

[skelly423]

Does anyone else think Kurt is just an outright con artist? He's selling a snake oil potion with a limitless list of magic properties. We'll never hear an honest statement of what's actually in Kurt's Card Care spray, just trust him that it's an elixir to fix the (card) world's problems. Even his devoted followers will admit that a lot of his before and after pictures are nothing more than carefully staged with lighting tricks to hide issues that never really disappear with his treatment. It's akin to magic diet pills where the subject is told to suck in their stomach for the "after" photo.

I suppose as long as he's just conning other con artists it doesn't bother me much, but I'm amazed he has as much of a profile as he does given how much stench there is around his sales tactic (and that's ignoring the ethical discussion about altering, which is a discussion I'm not engaging in again).

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by skelly423

Does anyone else think Kurt is just an outright con artist? He's selling a snake oil potion with a limitless list of magic properties. We'll never hear an honest statement of what's actually in Kurt's Card Care spray, just trust him that it's an elixir to fix the (card) world's problems. Even his devoted followers will admit that a lot of his before and after pictures are nothing more than carefully staged with lighting tricks to hide issues that never really disappear with his treatment. It's akin to magic diet pills where the subject is told to suck in their stomach for the "after" photo.

I suppose as long as he's just conning other con artists it doesn't bother me much, but I'm amazed he has as much of a profile as he does given how much stench there is around his sales tactic (and that's ignoring the ethical discussion about altering, which is a discussion I'm not engaging in again).

I hate the whole card cleaning/doctoring culture. These people always seem shady, deceptive and disingeuous to me.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I hate the whole card cleaning/doctoring culture. These people always seem shady, deceptive and disingeuous to me.

Would you characterize me as "shady, deceptive, and disingenuous" on this topic?

[Peter_Spaeth]

To the extent you're defending Kurt's and others' use of chemical potions to improve the appearance of cards, and submitting and/or selling them without disclosure, I would say that's shady.

[BioCRN]

As a chemical-using science person for a living type dude, doctoring cards with a "secret recipe" is a big deal, VERY especially after seeing that interview and seeing he has very little idea how to approach making his "secret recipe" rather than trial and error.

I suspect, though I say this with no tips or close knowledge, that propylene glycol may be part of the recipe. It helps things like cardboard (for instance) take up water deeper into and between cells and hold onto it better. It also won't ruin the "plastic" as he calls the card gloss.

It's also quite sticky and doesn't tend to precipitate out of whatever it's applied to, meaning when the water and other chemicals are gone, a residue hangs around that could make the situation worse over time.

You can share "active ingredients" without giving ratios.

But let's be real. Most people using stuff like this are doing it for the quick flip and that's someone else's problem 5-10-20+ years from now.

This is just an example of an unintended consequence of using a chemical. I'm slightly alarmed that he talked about his discovery process as a "throwing things at the problem" process rather than approaching it with the properties of the chemical(s) being used.

[Lucas00]

Originally Posted by BioCRN

But let's be real. Most people using stuff like this are doing it for the quick flip and that's someone else's problem 5-10-20+ years from now.

This exactly. Just like how card trimming was done by people in the 90s and 2000s that was seldom caught (compared to now). They made their millions and got away with it. Now people with their old label 9s and 10s are finding out the cards are likely trimmed decades later.

The new MO is low grade high eye appeal stained and lightly wrinkled cards that can be altered with chemicals for +2-3 or more grade bumps. Which is very unfortunate as that's many real collectors sweet spots in terms of price to quality ratio. They will likely now start being outbid by what can only be dubbed as "Juicers". Really sucks.

Hopefully there's some kind of chemical testing that can be implemented into tpgs process. Though that's probably expensive and time consuming so I really doubt it.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

To the extent you're defending Kurt's and others' use of chemical potions to improve the appearance of cards, and submitting and/or selling them without disclosure, I would say that's shady.

Not sure anyone here defended PWCC more often and with more fervor than Travis. So his defense of Kurt or any other person in the hobby that deals in questionable practices seems fitting.

And I have no issues with his supporting businesses like that but he too practices cleaning cards and has said he has cleaned thousands of them yet I have seen his eBay graded listings and either of those thousands of cards he has cleaned none are those he has listed or sold or...he is not disclosing, which is the issue I have.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

Not sure anyone here defended PWCC more often and with more fervor than Travis. So his defense of Kurt or any other person in the hobby that deals in questionable practices seems fitting.

And I have no issues with his supporting businesses like that but he too practices cleaning cards and has said he has cleaned thousands of them yet I have seen his eBay graded listings and either of those thousands of cards he has cleaned none are those he has listed or sold or...he is not disclosing, which is the issue I have.

He has said he doesn't disclose because there is nothing to disclose.

[gunboat82]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Would you characterize me as "shady, deceptive, and disingenuous" on this topic?

I would, yeah. You move the goalposts and build strawmen when you're defending card cleaning. In another thread, you defended Kurt's Card Care because it's "mostly distilled water," and then implied that people are being irrational because they're afraid of water:

Originally Posted by Snowman

People often fear that which they don't understand or can't explain. They just assume that soaking a card in water will damage it and then attempt to justify their position because it just feels wrong to them. The hobby is like a religion to some with viewpoints that cannot be challenged.

The ironic part to me is that these same people are completely fine with collectors putting their grimy oily fingers with French-fry grease, dirt, snot, and god knows what else all over their cards, as if none of those substances "alter" the card. But the moment you talk about removing any of that or of even just water touching the card, they completely lose their marbles as they chant "ALTERATION!!!" and start calling for heads to roll. I honestly find it hilarious.

.

Kurt made it abundantly clear in his interview that he's not using water. Yet instead of conceding that some people might be rationally opposed to mystery chemicals also being used on cards, you revert back to the arguments that (1) Water doesn't damage cards, and (2) Trust Kurt because he's an expert.

Originally Posted by Snowman

Furthermore, this claim that we don't know the long term effects of soaking cards and that it poses serious risks is also nonsense. People have been soaking cards for more than a century. There is a long established history of the effects of soaking cards. There are millions of soaked cards in slabs.

People have not been soaking cards in Kurt's for more than a century. There is not a long established history of soaking cards in Kurt's. We can't look to the history of soaking in water to predict with confidence what would happen to cards soaked in Kurt's mystery elixir.

Originally Posted by Snowman

Properly cleaning and soaking cards preserves them. It does not destroy them. There is an entire field dedicated to the preservation and safe restoration techniques of paper artifacts.

This seems like an appeal to authority. We have to take your word for it that Kurt is a scholar who properly restores and preserves cards after careful research. When I watched his interview, I saw a guy who might be fun to grab a beer with, but not a master chemist who could confidently state that his product will never be detectable. His answer when asked whether someone could detect his work on a vintage card was equivocal and concerning.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I object to Kurt's Card Care.

But nothing's wrong with water.

Kurt isn't using water, he's using chemicals.

But the chemicals he's using are as safe as water. Trust me.

Do you know what he's using?

No, but I've seen the results, and anyone who thinks differently doesn't know what he's talking about.

And it bothers me that none of this gets disclosed.

That's because there's nothing to disclose.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Want to find out what's in the stuff? Buy some and take it to a lab. It's certainly not against any law to attempt to make your own after getting the lab results; you just can't sell it. Well, maybe if the recipe was tweaked ever so slightly...

Either way, I'm guessing the formula to be much simpler than anyone would think.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by gunboat82

I would, yeah. You move the goalposts and build strawmen when you're defending card cleaning. In another thread, you defended Kurt's Card Care because it's "mostly distilled water," and then implied that people are being irrational because they're afraid of water:

.

Kurt made it abundantly clear in his interview that he's not using water. Yet instead of conceding that some people might be rationally opposed to mystery chemicals also being used on cards, you revert back to the arguments that (1) Water doesn't damage cards, and (2) Trust Kurt because he's an expert.



People have not been soaking cards in Kurt's for more than a century. There is not a long established history of soaking cards in Kurt's. We can't look to the history of soaking in water to predict with confidence what would happen to cards soaked in Kurt's mystery elixir.



This seems like an appeal to authority. We have to take your word for it that Kurt is a scholar who properly restores and preserves cards after careful research. When I watched his interview, I saw a guy who might be fun to grab a beer with, but not a master chemist who could confidently state that his product will never be detectable. His answer when asked whether someone could detect his work on a vintage card was equivocal and concerning.

Wow, talk about being disingenuous lol. Just go ahead and spit my words back out of your mouth next time if you're going to just going to take my words on topic A and pretend as though I said them about topic B in every talking point.

[G1911]

I don't understand how someone can acknowledge they don't know what Kurt's magic potion actually is but simultaneously hold that it cannot harm the card over the long haul.

Oh wait, logic has nothing to do with it. Anything is fine if it makes money. Never disclose.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by skelly423

Does anyone else think Kurt is just an outright con artist? He's selling a snake oil potion with a limitless list of magic properties. We'll never hear an honest statement of what's actually in Kurt's Card Care spray, just trust him that it's an elixir to fix the (card) world's problems. Even his devoted followers will admit that a lot of his before and after pictures are nothing more than carefully staged with lighting tricks to hide issues that never really disappear with his treatment. It's akin to magic diet pills where the subject is told to suck in their stomach for the "after" photo.

I suppose as long as he's just conning other con artists it doesn't bother me much, but I'm amazed he has as much of a profile as he does given how much stench there is around his sales tactic (and that's ignoring the ethical discussion about altering, which is a discussion I'm not engaging in again).

Why would he tell anyone what's in his magic potion though? There are numerous copycat operations already. Telling them what's in his products would be just as stupid as the best BBQ joint in the country posting the recipe for their BBQ sauce on their front door.

The before and after pictures that you're referring to where the lighting differs in an effort to make the creases look better than they actually are were taken by his customers, not him. Kurt pretty much always uses the same lighting in his videos and images. If you look closely, you can almost always still see the creases he worked on in his after photos.

As for me being a "devoted follower", I like Kurt. I think he's a great guy. But I don't use his card spray when I soak my cards (I did buy a bottle for fun though). And I don't use his polish either, as I don't collect shiny stuff. But people clearly like his products and they clearly work as there are approximately one million cards in slabs that have been worked on using his products.

As for him being a con artist? No, that's silly. The guy literally fixes cards live on camera, tells you exactly what he's doing while he's doing it, and then posts the grading results when he's done. He sells a product that works and shows you how to use it. He wouldn't have so many repeat customers if his products didn't work. It's clearly not snake oil. Can you achieve the same results by researching how professional paper restoration experts safely clean documents that are far more important and valuable than our baseball cards? Yes, of course. But most people are too lazy to do the research on their own. Hence he has a large and loyal customer base.

People fear what they don't understand. Paper restoration and preservation is a fascinating subject to study. You can learn a lot just by reading.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Why would he tell anyone what's in his magic potion though? There are numerous copycat operations already. Telling them what's in his products would be just as stupid as the best BBQ joint in the country posting the recipe for their BBQ sauce on their front door.

The before and after pictures that you're referring to where the lighting differs in an effort to make the creases look better than they actually are were taken by his customers, not him. Kurt pretty much always uses the same lighting in his videos and images. If you look closely, you can almost always still see the creases he worked on in his after photos.

As for me being a "devoted follower", I like Kurt. I think he's a great guy. But I don't use his card spray when I soak my cards (I did buy a bottle for fun though). And I don't use his polish either, as I don't collect shiny stuff. But people clearly like his products and they clearly work as there are approximately one million cards in slabs that have been worked on using his products.

As for him being a con artist? No, that's silly. The guy literally fixes cards live on camera, tells you exactly what he's doing while he's doing it, and then posts the grading results when he's done. He sells a product that works and shows you how to use it. He wouldn't have so many repeat customers if his products didn't work. It's clearly not snake oil. Can you achieve the same results by researching how professional paper restoration experts safely clean documents that are far more important and valuable than our baseball cards? Yes, of course. But most people are too lazy to do the research on their own. Hence he has a large and loyal customer base.

People fear what they don't understand. Paper restoration and preservation is a fascinating subject to study. You can learn a lot just by reading.

Straw man argument IMO. For many documents and the like, preservation and restoration are considered acceptable, and are not done for deception. Baseball cards have always been different. If Kurt and others are so above board, let them disclose their work. This all feels like Dick T. all over again.

[skelly423]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Why would he tell anyone what's in his magic potion though? There are numerous copycat operations already. Telling them what's in his products would be just as stupid as the best BBQ joint in the country posting the recipe for their BBQ sauce on their front door.

Is he not sharing because he's afraid it's going to feed the copycat operations, or is he not sharing because he knows it's snake oil and it'll tank his sales? Only Kurt knows for sure. I have my opinion, you have yours, we don't need to agree.

Originally Posted by Snowman

But people clearly like his products and they clearly work as there are approximately one million cards in slabs that have been worked on using his products.

A million cards in slabs have have been worked on using his products!? I'd love to see anything resembling evidence to support this claim because it sure seems like you pulled a number out of thin air.

Originally Posted by Snowman

People fear what they don't understand. Paper restoration and preservation is a fascinating subject to study.

Don't insult my intelligence by pretending I don't understand card restoration. I understand it well, I just don't buy the arguments that it's a good thing for the card collecting hobby. Considering the evidence and disagreeing with your position doesn't make me fearful or unintelligent.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by skelly423

Is he not sharing because he's afraid it's going to feed the copycat operations, or is he not sharing because he knows it's snake oil and it'll tank his sales? Only Kurt knows for sure. I have my opinion, you have yours, we don't need to agree.

Your snake oil analogy still falls flat. Whether you approve of it or not, his card spray clearly works. Thus, it's not snake oil.

Originally Posted by skelly423

A million cards in slabs have have been worked on using his products!? I'd love to see anything resembling evidence to support this claim because it sure seems like you pulled a number out of thin air.

Jeremy Lee asked him how many cards he estimates have been submitted to the grading companies using his products. Kurt said based on the volume of products he ships and how many cards those products are capable of cleaning and 75-80% of those cards being sent in for grading that a conservative estimate would be ~30,000 cards per month are sent to the grading companies. I don't have access to his records, and I don't know what his growth rates are like, but he's been in business for several years now. One million cards in slabs is a fair estimate based on that data. 20k cards per month over 5 years would be 1.2 million cards. 30k cards per month over 5 years would be 1.8 million cards. 40k cards per month over 6 years would be 2.9 million cards. But even if it's just 15k cards per month over 5 years, that's still 900k cards.

Originally Posted by skelly423

Don't insult my intelligence by pretending I don't understand card restoration. I understand it well, I just don't buy the arguments that it's a good thing for the card collecting hobby. Considering the evidence and disagreeing with your position doesn't make me fearful or unintelligent.

I have no idea how much you've researched paper restoration techniques (although I suspect you're not as learned on the topic as you're leading on). But my point was more to the hobby in general. Most people know absolutely nothing about it.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Your snake oil analogy still falls flat. Whether you approve of it or not, his card spray clearly works. Thus, it's not snake oil.



Jeremy Lee asked him how many cards he estimates have been submitted to the grading companies using his products. Kurt said based on the volume of products he ships and how many cards those products are capable of cleaning and 75-80% of those cards being sent in for grading that a conservative estimate would be ~30,000 cards per month are sent to the grading companies. I don't have access to his records, and I don't know what his growth rates are like, but he's been in business for several years now. One million cards in slabs is a fair estimate based on that data. 20k cards per month over 5 years would be 1.2 million cards. 30k cards per month over 5 years would be 1.8 million cards. 40k cards per month over 6 years would be 2.9 million cards. But even if it's just 15k cards per month over 5 years, that's still 900k cards.

Several years? Guess he was under the radar in the hobby lol

So one bottle is good for 1000 cards and he sold 30 bottles?

It's one of the more ridiculous claims I've ever heard

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

Several years? Guess he was under the radar in the hobby lol

So one bottle is good for 1000 cards and he sold 30 bottles?

It's one of the more ridiculous claims I've ever heard

I've personally known about him since 2019, so ya, several years. And he has 5 full-time employees. You can often see them filling orders in the background of his videos. He sells a lot of product. I see no reason to question his claims.

[Lucas00]

Originally Posted by Snowman

I like Orlando, but he doesn't know what he's talking about in that video. The stain was always there. You can see it in the before photo. The images he posted for before and after just use drastically different settings for contrast, brightness, exposure, etc.

At one point, he holds the PSA graded copy next to the SGC copy and claims that any color differences they have are due to "chemicals" being used on the card (nevermind the fact that the one he claims was altered actually has *better* color). This is of course nonsense. Then he starts talking about how if the stain was present when PSA graded it then they would have given it a 2 and not a 6. Again, this is nonsense and demonstrates remarkable ignorance of PSA's grading standards. They regularly assign 6s to stained cards even to this day. I could post numerous examples of them.

Most cards that were removed from scrapbooks like this one were simply removed with water. If the glue is water soluble, it will come out easily with just water. No "harsh chemicals" necessary. If the glue is not water soluble, then you would need a solvent that is so harsh that it would destroy the card.

Furthermore, this claim that we don't know the long term effects of soaking cards and that it poses serious risks is also nonsense. People have been soaking cards for more than a century. There is a long established history of the effects of soaking cards. There are millions of soaked cards in slabs. Properly cleaning and soaking cards preserves them. It does not destroy them. There is an entire field dedicated to the preservation and safe restoration techniques of paper artifacts.

There are no before and after pictures shown in the video. He bought it with no stain visible And the stain came back after several years. We don't know the long term effects of soaking cards with chemicals. Of course I know plain water has always and always will be fine for cards.

I know you can chemically preserve paper properly.
Kurt's card care isn't the Library of Congress, Does he know what he's doing with his formula? You decide. I would also add preservation of paper chemically is almost always manuscripts and other extremely thin documents. Not colored card stock. I don't think the hall of fame museum is taking in 1880s scrapbook cards and soaking them in kcc.

Clearly he has them side by side, one soaked with water and one soaked with chemicals and they are extremely different looking. And the water soaked looks exactly the same as the card that never touched water.

I'm talking with someone who openly does this to cards. So I wouldn't expect you to take my side.
Shame that Gherig wasn't an easy Kcc job and just had a little stain that you could've soaked chemically and turned into a 3 and resold it for $2000 more without saying anything.
Edit: seeing you said you'd never sell it on the other thread. We all know every collection goes to the grave! Lol.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Lucas00

There are no before and after pictures shown in the video. He bought it with no stain visible And the stain came back after several years. We don't know the long term effects of soaking cards with chemicals. Of course I know plain water has always and always will be fine for cards.

I know you can chemically preserve paper properly.
Kurt's card care isn't the Library of Congress, Does he know what he's doing with his formula? You decide. I would also add preservation of paper chemically is almost always manuscripts and other extremely thin documents. Not colored card stock. I don't think the hall of fame museum is taking in 1880s scrapbook cards and soaking them in kcc.

Clearly he has them side by side, one soaked with water and one soaked with chemicals and they are extremely different looking. And the water soaked looks exactly the same as the card that never touched water.

I'm talking with someone who openly does this to cards. So I wouldn't expect you to take my side.
Shame that Gherig wasn't an easy Kcc job and just had a little stain that you could've soaked chemically and turned into a 3 and resold it for $2000 more without saying anything.
Edit: seeing you said you'd never sell it on the other thread. We all know every collection goes to the grave! Lol.

I think the before pictures were posted by a few of the hobby trolls online, which I was conflating with his video. But either way, the stain was always there. He provides no evidence to support his claim that the stain appeared out of no where and that it wasn't there before. I don't think he's trying to deceive his audience. I just think he's wrong about the stain not having been there before. I think he didn't notice the stain when he bought it (it's faint) and then he one day later discovered it and assumed it had to have magically appeared because, using his reasoning, "PSA would have given it a 2 if the stain was there when they graded it". Yet, unbeknownst to him, PSA actually places stained cards in 6 holders with regularity.