Could Caitlyn Clark compete with D1 men?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

I can. When human biology conflicts with ideology or what one would like to be true, we know which one gets tossed aside .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Doz5w2W-jAY

[maniac_73]

If she can make a D1 team she should try and make a D1 team. There are no rules against women trying out for a Men's team and if they think they can hang they should try. The fact that we don't have women on these men's teams outside a few marketing examples tells you what you need to know.

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The physical differences between him and other NBA players do not even begin to compare to the relevant physical differences between Clark and any male player. I can't believe we're even having this discussion.

In terms of what, Peter? If we are not talking about size, strength or speed, what is your criteria?

Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk

[packs]

Originally Posted by maniac_73

If she can make a D1 team she should try and make a D1 team. There are no rules against women trying out for a Men's team and if they think they can hang they should try. The fact that we don't have women on these men's teams outside a few marketing examples tells you what you need to know.

She has a free ride at Iowa playing women's basketball and really has nothing to prove to anyone. This is a theoretical discussion only.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

She has a free ride at Iowa playing women's basketball and really has nothing to prove to anyone. This is a theoretical discussion only.

She is making millions in NIL money. She will take a pay cut not to come back for another year.

[packs]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

She is making millions in NIL money. She will take a pay cut not to come back for another year.

I meant in terms of her having any interest in actually trying out for a men's D1 team.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Doz5w2W-jAY

Classic movie

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by maniac_73

If she can make a D1 team she should try and make a D1 team. There are no rules against women trying out for a Men's team and if they think they can hang they should try. The fact that we don't have women on these men's teams outside a few marketing examples tells you what you need to know.

I think Clark's career is in a much better place right now than if she was sitting on the bench for Northern Iowa's men's team, don't you? Just because a top woman player could try out for a men's team, it would probably not make sense for them to do it.

Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk

[packs]

It's like asking why an undefeated middle weight wouldn't just bulk up and fight in the heavyweight division. Because there would be little incentive to do so and you already dominate your niche. That's why.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Gorditadogg

I think Clark's career is in a much better place right now than if she was sitting on the bench for Northern Iowa's men's team, don't you? Just because a top woman player could try out for a men's team, it would probably not make sense for them to do it.

Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk

Not to mention her bank account. She makes millions a year now as a woman star. I don't think we can infer anything from the fact she hasn't tried to make a men's team.

[youguysplayingcards?]

Pat Summitt teams used to practice against men. No man that had played over D3 level and no one over 6'2" was eligible. Also anyone being "too physical" was immediately off the practice team. Clark is a great player that would not play on a D1 men's team at all.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by youguysplayingcards?

Pat Summitt teams used to practice against men. No man that had played over D3 level and no one over 6'2" was eligible. Also anyone being "too physical" was immediately off the practice team. Clark is a great player that would not play on a D1 men's team at all.

UConn same thing, they would recruit pick up players from the school gym for scrimmages.

[Belfast1933]

She’s probably a better shooter than 1/2 the players in D1 men’s basketball, right? In theory, no way she has value for a team for drawn up plays to get her open after timeouts? End of game?

Its going to faciinating to see if she can have an impact on the WNBA anywhere near what she has done for women’s college basketball 🤞🫡

[Peter_Spaeth]

There is no chance IMO a woman with her build would stand up to the physicality of the men's game. It's fantasy.

[gunboat82]

Originally Posted by Belfast1933

She’s probably a better shooter than 1/2 the players in D1 men’s basketball, right? In theory, no way she has value for a team for drawn up plays to get her open after timeouts? End of game?

Its going to faciinating to see if she can have an impact on the WNBA anywhere near what she has done for women’s college basketball 🤞🫡

We simply don't know how she would shoot with a men's basketball. They're not the same size. And I think she'd have considerable difficulty getting open and elevating shots as a post-timeout substitution, where everyone knows the gameplan.

[packs]

You are either an elite athlete or not. These NBA players are all pretty small and if you just saw their height and weight, I'm not sure you'd think they were destined for the NBA either:

Terquavion Smith: 6'4 160 pounds
Jacob Gilyard: 5'9 160 pounds
Isaiah Joe: 6'3 165 pounds

This is not to suggest Caitlin Clark is, just that she's really not that much smaller than players in the NBA right now.

[Hxcmilkshake]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

There is no chance IMO a woman with her build would stand up to the physicality of the men's game. It's fantasy.

This. And to suggest otherwise means you haven't seen both a mens game and a womens game live/up close.

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

You are either an elite athlete or not. These NBA players are all pretty small and if you just saw their height and weight, I'm not sure you'd think they were destined for the NBA either:

Terquavion Smith: 6'4 160 pounds
Jacob Gilyard: 5'9 160 pounds
Isaiah Joe: 6'3 165 pounds

This is not to suggest Caitlin Clark is, just that she's really not that much smaller than players in the NBA right now.

Again, women are different from men. They just are. It's not height or weight.

[packs]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Again, women are different from men. They just are. It's not height or weight.

Yeah, but people are still people too and people tend to be individuals, which is my point. It would very easy to say Jacob Gilyard is 5'9 and 160 pounds. He's not big enough to play in the NBA.

Except Jacob Gilyard is an individual person with exceptional talent.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

Yeah, but people are still people too and people tend to be individuals, which is my point. It would very easy to say Jacob Gilyard is 5'9 and 160 pounds. He's not big enough to play in the NBA.

Except Jacob Gilyard is an individual person with exceptional talent.

Agreed but that's not relevant to the topic. At all. We are not comparing people in the same category we are comparing people in completely different categories -- women players and men. It so reminds me of MacGregor and Mayweather, we had guys here making the same absurd arguments.

[packs]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Agreed but that's not relevant to the topic. At all.

It is because many people might say WOMEN aren't strong enough to compete with men in the NBA. But really we're just talking about one person. I'm just looking to keep the conversation focused is all.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

It is because many people might say WOMEN aren't strong enough to compete with men in the NBA. But really we're just talking about one person. I'm just looking to keep the conversation focused is all.

I don't follow the logic. The fact that she is a woman is the source of the characteristics which make her unable to compete with men.

My tiny baby brother, who's never read a book,
Knows one sex from the other,
All he had to do was look,

[packs]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I don't follow the logic. The fact that she is a woman is the source of the characteristics which make her unable to compete with men.

I don't follow your logic. This whole time you've said two things: she isn't physically capable of competing on a men's team and she can't defend. I don't think either of those things are dependent on her gender. I'm a man and I can't compete on a men's team either.

The point is this: there is no absolute. If you follow your logic, then you'd have to accept there will never be a woman physically gifted enough to play with men. I don't think that's anymore true than there will never be an NBA player who's 5'3. It will always come down to the individual. So, why not discuss people as individuals?

[Belfast1933]

By the way, seems like we may all be somewhat in the same "vintage" to recall players who were NOT the biggest, were NOT the fastest but WERE smarter, better decision makers, playmakers, etc.

Diff sports, I know, no one talks about physical gifts first when they discuss the greatness of Brady, Bird or Gretzky.

Never say never, boys.

[bk400]

Originally Posted by packs

I don't follow your logic. This whole time you've said two things: she isn't physically capable of competing on a men's team and she can't defend. I don't think either of those things are dependent on her gender. I'm a man and I can't compete on a men's team either.

The point is this: there is no absolute. If you follow your logic, then you'd have to accept there will never be a woman physically gifted enough to play with men. I don't think that's anymore true than there will never be an NBA player who's 5'3. It will always come down to the individual. So, why not discuss people as individuals?

I'm one of those people who would love to see a woman compete with men at the D1 level in any major sport.

Let's look at the data. Aside from the USWNT scrimmage against the Dallas U15 team and some other one off examples, females in contact sports tend to avoid mens and boys teams. This, in and of itself, is relevant evidence.

Anyway, I looked at the below, which is from Duke Law School, comparing athletic performance between men and women.

https://law.duke.edu/sports/sex-spor...ic-performance

Though the article is slightly dated (as it does not include the most recent men's world records by Usain Bolt, Wayne van Niekirk, and David Rudisha in the 100, 200, 400 and 800m), the points made are very clear.

To the extent that explosiveness and quickness are key athletic attributes in basketball, you can draw inferences from the comparisons between elite (Olympic level) women and BOYS (forget the men) in the 100m, long jump, and high jump. Basically, the world record holding women do not compare that favourably with U18 boys.

Further, it seems that it is really hard to make a D1 mens basketball program. See the below:

https://www.ncaa.org/sports/2015/3/2...athletics.aspx

To summarize, the NCAA estimates that only the top 1% of high school boys basketball players plays in D1.

When I read this and I look at Caitlyn Clark's game, I struggle to see her even making the starting line up on any top 10 boys high school team in any state in America.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

I don't follow your logic. This whole time you've said two things: she isn't physically capable of competing on a men's team and she can't defend. I don't think either of those things are dependent on her gender. I'm a man and I can't compete on a men's team either.

The point is this: there is no absolute. If you follow your logic, then you'd have to accept there will never be a woman physically gifted enough to play with men. I don't think that's anymore true than there will never be an NBA player who's 5'3. It will always come down to the individual. So, why not discuss people as individuals?

That there could be some fringe example does not negate the general proposition. Cheetahs are faster than squirrels. That there might be some extreme counterexample does not mean we should just consider every animal individually. I can't believe I have to explain this. Political correctness is fine but come on.

[packs]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

That there could be some fringe example does not negate the general proposition. Cheetahs are faster than squirrels. That there might be some extreme counterexample does not mean we should just consider every animal individually. I can't believe I have to explain this. Political correctness is fine but come on.

I don't think you're explaining anything. I'm just glad Muggsy Bogues and Spud Webb and a million other players never listened to detractors. I'm sure they heard YOU CAN'T way before they ever heard you can.

But they did.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

I don't think you're explaining anything. I'm just glad Muggsy Bogues and Spud Webb and a million other players never listened to detractors. I'm sure they heard YOU CAN'T way before they ever heard you can.

But they did.

Yes but that has nothing to do with this topic. We are talking about the physiological differences, in general, between women and men as they relate to basketball. Not about the difference between a typical elite NBA player and a short elite NBA player.

[bk400]

Originally Posted by packs

I don't think you're explaining anything. I'm just glad Muggsy Bogues and Spud Webb and a million other players never listened to detractors. I'm sure they heard YOU CAN'T way before they ever heard you can.

But they did.

For what it is worth, I'd support Caitlyn Clark trying out for the CBA or a foreign men's pro league, now that her NCAA eligibility is probably over (I could be wrong here). Or perhaps let her play with the Iowa men next year for part of the season.

But would the results help the women's game? Even Lisa Leslie has deftly avoided the topic of women playing against men.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bk400

For what it is worth, I'd support Caitlyn Clark trying out for the CBA or a foreign men's pro league, now that her NCAA eligibility is probably over (I could be wrong here). Or perhaps let her play with the Iowa men next year for part of the season.

But would the results help the women's game? Even Lisa Leslie has deftly avoided the topic of women playing against men.

She has one more year and is foregoing it and the millions she would earn to go WNBA.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by packs

I don't think you're explaining anything. I'm just glad Muggsy Bogues and Spud Webb and a million other players never listened to detractors. I'm sure they heard YOU CAN'T way before they ever heard you can.

But they did.

LOL, both those guys had more muscle and strength than the girl. Still not sure why you keep bringing up smaller stronger men.

[packs]

Originally Posted by bnorth

LOL, both those guys had more muscle and strength than the girl. Still not sure why you keep bringing up smaller stronger men.

To demonstrate that there are no absolutes. I've already explained that. And my reason for bringing them up is because I don't support the idea of absolutes.

[bk400]

Caitlyn Clark is a joy to watch. Just like Mia Hamm, Lisa Leslie, and Allyson Felix were joys to watch. But if you made them compete against Sergio Ramos, Shaq, and Michael Johnson, it would set the women's movement back a generation because half of the world's population (largely outside the US) are looking to see women fail.

[JustinD]

Well the current news is that the retirement league of 3 on 3, Big3, has offered her 5 million to simply play 8 games.

This would pay her the same money per game as the top 25 of the NBA to simply play 3 on 3 with some super random retired players in their late 30s to 40s. The contract also provides that she can play her normal WNBA season. It's all win.

I will be surprised if she says yes, but I would tune in to watch her try. It's certainly not crazy competition, the best player they seemingly have signed is 35 year old Michael Beasley, and this is a group that starts Cuttino Mobley at age 48.

I am interested to see how this plays out with the offer likely large multiples what her season contract will be in the WNBA (highest contract was 242k last season). However, I doubt she takes it.

If she get smoked by guys near 50 and dominates the WNBA, the optics would be rough on the storytime premises. That said if she does even okay it could be boon like Riggs-King, even though that was a silly thing as King was number 1 in the world and Riggs was 55 (and may have thrown it per numerous stories).

[Belfast1933]

Breaking news??

Maybe we won't have to just speculate:

https://www.espn.com/womens-college-...5m-offer-clark

[bk400]

Originally Posted by JustinD

Well the current news is that the retirement league of 3 on 3, Big3, has offered her 5 million to simply play 8 games.

This would pay her the same money per game as the top 25 of the NBA to simply play 3 on 3 with some super random retired players in their late 30s to 40s. The contract also provides that she can play her normal WNBA season. It's all win.

I will be surprised if she says yes, but I would tune in to watch her try. It's certainly not crazy competition, the best player they seemingly have signed is 35 year old Michael Beasley, and this is a group that starts Cuttino Mobley at age 48.

I am interested to see how this plays out with the offer likely large multiples what her season contract will be in the WNBA (highest contract was 242k last season). However, I doubt she takes it.

If she get smoked by guys near 50 and dominates the WNBA, the optics would be rough on the storytime premises. That said if she does even okay it could be boon like Riggs-King, even though that was a silly thing as King was number 1 in the world and Riggs was 55 (and may have thrown it per numerous stories).

She should go to the WNBA. Or stay at Iowa as Peter intimated and make NIL money. Maybe it is an old school view, but I'd be sad to see a talent like her getting her ass kicked by Charles Oakley or whoever Ice Cube brings in to maul her.

[bk400]

Originally Posted by JustinD

Well the current news is that the retirement league of 3 on 3, Big3, has offered her 5 million to simply play 8 games.

This would pay her the same money per game as the top 25 of the NBA to simply play 3 on 3 with some super random retired players in their late 30s to 40s. The contract also provides that she can play her normal WNBA season. It's all win.

I will be surprised if she says yes, but I would tune in to watch her try. It's certainly not crazy competition, the best player they seemingly have signed is 35 year old Michael Beasley, and this is a group that starts Cuttino Mobley at age 48.

I am interested to see how this plays out with the offer likely large multiples what her season contract will be in the WNBA (highest contract was 242k last season). However, I doubt she takes it.

If she get smoked by guys near 50 and dominates the WNBA, the optics would be rough on the storytime premises. That said if she does even okay it could be boon like Riggs-King, even though that was a silly thing as King was number 1 in the world and Riggs was 55 (and may have thrown it per numerous stories).

She should go to the WNBA. Or stay at Iowa as Peter intimated and make NIL money. Maybe it is an old school view, but I'd be sad to see a talent like her getting her ass kicked by Charles Oakley or whoever Ice Cube brings in to maul her.

[bk400]

Originally Posted by JustinD

Well the current news is that the retirement league of 3 on 3, Big3, has offered her 5 million to simply play 8 games.

This would pay her the same money per game as the top 25 of the NBA to simply play 3 on 3 with some super random retired players in their late 30s to 40s. The contract also provides that she can play her normal WNBA season. It's all win.

I will be surprised if she says yes, but I would tune in to watch her try. It's certainly not crazy competition, the best player they seemingly have signed is 35 year old Michael Beasley, and this is a group that starts Cuttino Mobley at age 48.

I am interested to see how this plays out with the offer likely large multiples what her season contract will be in the WNBA (highest contract was 242k last season). However, I doubt she takes it.

If she get smoked by guys near 50 and dominates the WNBA, the optics would be rough on the storytime premises. That said if she does even okay it could be boon like Riggs-King, even though that was a silly thing as King was number 1 in the world and Riggs was 55 (and may have thrown it per numerous stories).

She should go to the WNBA. Or stay at Iowa as Peter intimated and make NIL money. Maybe it is an old school view, but I'd be sad to see a talent like her getting her ass kicked by Charles Oakley or whoever Ice Cube brings in to maul her.

[G1911]

I have no doubt women will crack into the mens leagues of the major sports over the next 20 years. It won't be because they can perform at that level, but because it is a part of the ideology that comes before physiology, human biology, and meritocratic rosters.

This PC delusion that women can do the same physical things as men to the same level, and it's more extreme form that has taken hold in several states that one cannot even define what a woman is in any terms besides a circular appeal to self-authority is absolutely crazy, but that's ideology. Conclusions writ by social or political need rarely make any sense.

[bk400]

Originally Posted by G1911

I have no doubt women will crack into the mens leagues of the major sports over the next 20 years. It won't be because they can perform at that level, but because it is a part of the ideology that comes before physiology, human biology, and meritocratic rosters.

This PC delusion that women can do the same physical things as men to the same level, and it's more extreme form that has taken hold in several states that one cannot even define what a woman is in any terms besides a circular appeal to self-authority is absolutely crazy, but that's ideology. Conclusions writ by social or political need rarely make any sense.

I am an optimist and therefore disagree with you. We're already seeing backlash against men who converted to women (I still can't figure out if this is called a trans man or a trans woman, so whatever) competing as woman in swimming. No one wants to see altered men in skirts playing tennis against natural women. It's weird. And sponsors and advertisers will make that view known behind closed doors.

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by G1911

I have no doubt women will crack into the mens leagues of the major sports over the next 20 years. It won't be because they can perform at that level, but because it is a part of the ideology that comes before physiology, human biology, and meritocratic rosters.

This PC delusion that women can do the same physical things as men to the same level, and it's more extreme form that has taken hold in several states that one cannot even define what a woman is in any terms besides a circular appeal to self-authority is absolutely crazy, but that's ideology. Conclusions writ by social or political need rarely make any sense.

I just can't see it within basketball as there is no position in which it seems possible without massive rule changes.

I can see the NFL having a FG Kicker, or kicker/punter if they successfully eliminate returns in short order. Manon Rheaume may have only been in an exhibition game, but the goalie position in hockey does lend itself to female possibilities. Perhaps the MLB can find a slot at pitcher for a converted softball player. Submarine pitchers are not that uncommon.

I can't imagine any position unless it's a wasted bench slot within the game for an Eddie Gaedel type PC sideshow that works in the NBA.

[Belfast1933]

Originally Posted by G1911

I have no doubt women will crack into the mens leagues of the major sports over the next 20 years. It won't be because they can perform at that level, but because it is a part of the ideology that comes before physiology, human biology, and meritocratic rosters.

This PC delusion that women can do the same physical things as men to the same level, and it's more extreme form that has taken hold in several states that one cannot even define what a woman is in any terms besides a circular appeal to self-authority is absolutely crazy, but that's ideology. Conclusions writ by social or political need rarely make any sense.

Greg, but being a successful team sport player is more than just physical skill and strength, right? Anticipation, intelligence, experience, preparation, etc. don't require most bench press reps, fastest 40 times or highest vertical leap.

I'm not betting against this in my lifetime... there's more to measuring a team sport success than a stop watch

[Beercan collector]

Her lack of a vertical leap would get her destroyed .
Against women she takes one step back to the left and is wide open ,
Against men she could take seven steps back to the left and still not be able to get a shot off

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Beercan collector

Her lack of a vertical leap would get her destroyed .
Against women she takes one step back to the left and is wide open ,
Against men she could take seven steps back to the left and still not be able to get a shot off

Hell, there are countless men who can shoot the lights out but would be useless at a competitive level because they lack the overall athleticism. Next time you people who think Caitlin can play against men watch a game, pay attention to the amount of contact and physicality. She would get the crap beat out of her, and no disrespect to her, she's a wonderful player.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by JustinD

I just can't see it within basketball as there is no position in which it seems possible without massive rule changes.

I can see the NFL having a FG Kicker, or kicker/punter if they successfully eliminate returns in short order. Manon Rheaume may have only been in an exhibition game, but the goalie position in hockey does lend itself to female possibilities. Perhaps the MLB can find a slot at pitcher for a converted softball player. Submarine pitchers are not that uncommon.

I can't imagine any position unless it's a wasted bench slot within the game for an Eddie Gaedel type PC sideshow that works in the NBA.

No disrespect to her but Manon was a publicity stunt.

[packs]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

No disrespect to her but Manon was a publicity stunt.

She did play in the IHL for five seasons after the try out.

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by bk400

She should go to the WNBA. Or stay at Iowa as Peter intimated and make NIL money. Maybe it is an old school view, but I'd be sad to see a talent like her getting her ass kicked by Charles Oakley or whoever Ice Cube brings in to maul her.

I can see Clark going through that scenario: "Let's see. Option A, you give me my money, option B, you kick my ass. Now I could use a good ass kicking. Naw, I think I'm going with option A."

Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

She did play in the IHL for five seasons after the try out.

Only a total of 5 IHL games, one of which was for 1 minute, but still duly noted.

[packs]

Sometimes moments of greatness are fleeting. Vince Papale caught one NFL pass and David Ayres played 8 minutes in the NHL after starting the game driving the Zamboni.

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by packs

Sometimes moments of greatness are fleeting. Vince Papale caught one NFL pass and David Ayres played 8 minutes in the NHL after starting the game driving the Zamboni.

Vince Papale played for 3 seasons with the Eagles. He was mostly on special teams so he played more than 1 catch would indicate.