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#1
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Memory Lane Gehrig expectation vs reality
I won this 33 Goudey Gehrig from Memory Lane last month. To say the card was misrepresented would be an understatement. Here's a couple of side-by-sides showing the auction photos vs how they look in hand. And yes, I fully realize that it was in a PSA 1 holder. But the problem nowadays is that PSA's grading is all over the place, and they regularly put VG cards into PSA 1 holders, and this is a brand new cert number, graded within the past few months. So there was reason to believe that the flaws on the card were as seen and described in the listing. It sold for 150% of what an average PSA 1 goes for because of it too ($3750 vs $2500).
Item description from the listing reads as follows: Quote:
I reached out to them this morning and sent them these images. We'll see how they respond. Needless to say, I wasn't happy.
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If it's not perfectly centered, I probably don't want it. Last edited by Snowman; 02-14-2024 at 02:32 PM. |
#2
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Holy Cow!
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#3
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The Memory Lane scans look like they could have been taken directly from the PSA website: https://www.psacard.com/cert/78153729
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192/240 1933 Goudeys (Ruth #144, #149, Gehrig #92) 130/208 T205s 29/108? Diamond Stars |
#4
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Wow, that is just uncalled for.
Calling it deceitful does not begin to describe what Memory Lane did here. I would not settle for anything other than a full refund with some swag/credit of some sort thrown in to.
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52 Topps cards. https://www.flickr.com/photos/144160280@N05/ http://www.net54baseball.com/album.php?albumid=922 |
#5
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You should probably not partake in Heritage auctions.
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http://www.flickr.com/photos/calvindog/sets |
#6
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Quote:
I wonder if this is a case where the creases were removed, but then returned after grading. Or it could just be a really blurry scan by PSA.
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Trying to wrap up my master mays set, with just a few left: 1968 American Oil left side 1971 Bazooka numbered complete panel |
#7
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That’s pretty terrible, especially for the premium the card commanded based on the perceived absence of most the creases/wrinkles.
I had a similar situation recently with a Sport Thrills Jackie that showed up with full-length wrinkles that you would never be able to pick up in the scans (AH also used PSA scans). That card didn’t command such a premium and I was able to move it for just about what I had into it, so I never made a fuss about it, but I was very displeased.
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Trading! See my Flickr "For Trade" album for what I have and my "About" section for what I'm looking for. https://www.flickr.com/photos/197267578@N07/albums If you want a card, you might not get a deal. If you want a deal, you might not get a card. |
#8
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I checked the page source code for the Gehrig card .jpg file on both sites (PSA and ML) and the scans are different but very close. Neither obviously shows the evident creasing.
Quote:
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#9
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I once won a PSA 4 card that looked like it just had corner wear but actually had a crease down the middle (which I discovered when I received the card). Because of this, I have started calling AHs and asking them to pull any cards graded EX or below and go over them with me over the phone.
Not saying in any way that that is what you should have done...if the scan did not show those creases, they should have been mentioned in the description. But calling for details has helped me on several occasions avoid unpleasant surprises.
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My avatar is a drawing of a 1958 Topps Hank Aaron by my daughter. If you are interested in one in a similar style based on the card of your choice, details can be found by searching threads with the title phrase Custom Baseball Card Artwork or by PMing me. |
#10
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If you don’t like this then you’ll probably want to steer clear of Diamond Dave Kohler’s SCP Auctions.
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#11
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whoa!
That almost rises to the level of a photoshopped scam. Im hoping they make this right by you. Im sure you felt sick when you got the card in hand. Please keep us posted on the resolution of this problem. Sorry it happened.....
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#12
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There's a distinct difference in the background texture of the card. The picture/scan from the auction description has a very smooth black background and the picture/scan of the wrinkled card has a bit of texture.
Is the "after" graphic a scan or a picture? Is it possible the item description is a scan with crappy settings on the scanner? In any case, I'd be communicating with the AH because that is such a misrepresentation of the card. Totally mind blowing. It has the appearance that it was cracked out of the slab and was soaked and pressed. But then that wouldn't explain the same cert#. Edited to add - Let's hope the AH doesn't come back and say that a PSA1 can have creases, etc, and then try to close it out without further discussion.
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fr3d c0wl3s - always looking for OJs and other 19th century stuff. PM or email me if you have something cool you're looking to find a new home for. Last edited by Fred; 02-14-2024 at 04:06 PM. |
#13
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I can't say I've done it a lot, but a while back I purchased a card from heritage, My 1952 Bowman Mickey Mantle, and the Scan was near identical to what I received. Granted that should always be the case, but still.
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Successful Deals With: charlietheexterminator, todeen, tonyo, Santo10fan Bocabirdman (5x), 8thEastVB, JCMTiger, Rjackson44 Republicaninmass, 73toppsmann, quinnsryche (2x), Donscards. |
#14
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Doesn't Heritage provide really high resolution pictures/scans that can be exploded to be HUGE on a computer screen? I've found many defects by exploding the picture. I can't remember how long Heritage has been using this format, but it has helped me recently. Now if it was similar to this case and the exploded Gehrig card picture/scan didn't show the creases/wrinkles, then that would be problematic.
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fr3d c0wl3s - always looking for OJs and other 19th century stuff. PM or email me if you have something cool you're looking to find a new home for. |
#15
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Memory Lane Gehrig expectation vs reality
.
Last edited by 4815162342; 04-17-2024 at 05:36 AM. |
#16
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Memory Lane got back to me. Apparently, these images are not sufficient for them to determine that the card was misrepresented.
Quote:
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If it's not perfectly centered, I probably don't want it. |
#17
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Last year I was contemplating bidding on a high end card in HA. I called and asked about the condition and a little while later Joe Orlando called back. He completely described the card to me and could not have been any nicer. If you have questions about a card ask before you bid and definitely don’t call out an auction house before you give them an opportunity to respond to your issue.
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#18
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+1
Quote:
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Leon Luckey |
#19
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It's one thing to call and ask for specifics about a card's condition when no description is given. I do that with at least some degree of regularity. But in this case, there was no reason to ask questions about this card because they gave specifics about the card's condition in the description ("Soiling and wear are evident on the front, but nothing takes away from the pinstriped Gehrig central image. Clear verso."). To call them up and ask if they omitted something else significant (like a half dozen giant creases) would have been to assume that they were lying.
As far as calling them out, I disagree. This sort of behavior is rampant in this hobby and it's completely inexcusable. They did what they did, and bidders should be made aware of it. And this wasn't the only card they did it with either. I have another, much more expensive card that had an even more in-depth description, but which also omitted the fact that there were multiple creases on it. In fact, I would say that the description of the other card was so precise that it could be effectively interpreted as "there are no creases on this card". Yet it arrived with multiple hidden creases as well. They have an opportunity to make this right. If they do, then I will certainly be sharing that information. People make mistakes. But when auction houses do wrong by their customers, that information needs to be shared with the community.
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If it's not perfectly centered, I probably don't want it. |
#20
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Quote:
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52 Topps cards. https://www.flickr.com/photos/144160280@N05/ http://www.net54baseball.com/album.php?albumid=922 |
#21
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TIL; Auction Houses use PSA pix for some of their listings. I honestly didn't know that.
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#22
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They didn't use PSA's scan. The image is from their own scanner.
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If it's not perfectly centered, I probably don't want it. |
#23
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I suggested posting more on social media (tag the auction house) and let a YouTube blog post about it. I have a few to recommend who actually helped users w/ Goldin.
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#24
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Chances are eBay would have passed this as a PSA 1 where the holder wasn't compromised and sent it to you. And once they clear it the sale is final, there is nothing you can do. I bought a graded card where the seller edited out colors so it looked like an error, eBay approved it, and no matter how hard I complained my way up the chain they said 'tough shit, we're not the experts, the authenticator is and what they say is final." Now, a raw card in this situation and you might have a chance of hearing from them before they pass it.
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Collection: https://www.flickr.com/photos/132359235@N05/sets/ Ebay listings: https://www.ebay.com/sch/harrydoyle/...p2047675.l2562 |
#25
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.......
Just another reason I only deal with REA.
That is plain fraud on their (Memory Lane) part. I'd dispute the charge on your credit card (hopefully you paid this way) and never deal with them again. Very bad! REA all the way! Last edited by vthobby; 02-14-2024 at 06:26 PM. |
#26
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Quote:
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"Trolling Ebay right now" © Always looking for signed 1952 topps as well as variations and errors |
#27
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Very interesting comments.
I initially didn't understand why collectors would care about MBA ratings on top of graded slabs, but given the recent examples of inconsistencies, maybe the graders of the graders are actually providing a useful service after all? What do you think? FYI: I have never used the MBA service and don't own any MBA graded cards. |
#28
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Never heard of MBA. Not one time.
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#29
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Quote:
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#30
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This is why I like to take scans 100% raw. Dust specs and all, zero alterations to any settings aside from resolution.
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My Red Schoendienst collection- https://imageevent.com/lucas00/redsc...enstcollection My Baseball Snapshot Photo collection- https://imageevent.com/lucas00/snapshotcollection Last edited by Lucas00; 02-14-2024 at 07:36 PM. |
#31
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That's bullshit and I would be pissed off as well. I'd be in their best interest to make you whole.
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#32
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It’s inexcusable for an AH to represent a card that they’re selling with scans like that.
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Tony A. |
#33
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Really ridiculous. Hope it works out.
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#34
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That is one horrendous misrepresentation, and I agree that it should be overkill to ask for further details when a detailed description has been provided.
But then again, if it is over a certain price point, I will ask anyway, to be safe. This does not always work, however, as I found out with a pricey card a couple of years ago. In the end, the AH said they would take it back because they "missed" the wrinkle I asked about, but by then I was so fed up, I just kept the card. It was not nearly as egregious as this, however, or I would have demanded my money back for sure..... |
#35
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It looks like the Memory Lane picture is blurry, Gehrig's face is out of focus compared to Travis's scan. I would think an auction house would take better quality pictures than that.
Do you think the AH got duped, too, and used a picture provided by the seller? Whatever happened, it is a major screw up. Please keep us informed as this develops. Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk |
#36
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Might be worth filing in small claims court. Depends on whether it would be worth your time, but since the auction house delivered to your address, your small claims court presumably would have jurisdiction.
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Looking for a 1998 Bryan Braves (non-perforated) Kerry Ligtenberg. |
#37
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Nope.
If the seller accepts returns, you can return the card under the terms they set. If it is listed as no returns and the authenticator passes the card, it is yours forever as soon as it hits your doorstep. (I assume with provisions for a card damaged during shipping.)
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Collection: https://www.flickr.com/photos/132359235@N05/sets/ Ebay listings: https://www.ebay.com/sch/harrydoyle/...p2047675.l2562 |
#38
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Yeah, they should want to take care of this for you. Those scans are incredibly deceiving.
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ThatT206Life.com |
#39
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Quote:
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Seeking very scarce/rare cards for my Sam Rice master collection, e.g., E210 York Caramel Type 2 (upgrade), 1931 W502, W504 (upgrade), W572 sepia, W573, W575-1 E. S. Rice version, 1922 Haffner's Bread, 1922 Keating Candy, 1922 Witmor Candy Type 2 (vertical back), 1926 Sports Co. of Am. with ad & blank backs. Also T216 Kotton "NGO" card of Hugh Jennings. Also 1917 Merchants Bakery & Weil Baking cards of WaJo. |
#40
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Quote:
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If it's not perfectly centered, I probably don't want it. |
#41
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I think your mistake was assuming with PSA grading overly harsh, that it had a bump. From what I have been told, ML is on the short list of favorites at PSA and their stuff is not going to get the same harsh grading the rest of us experience. Also if this purchase was made on eBay and the same misleading scan was used, the card would have passed authentication. If the seller was an All Sales Final seller, you would have no recourse. You will have a better chance getting ML to refund you than you would had this been purchased on eBay.
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( h @ $ e A n + l e y |
#42
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Another mistake of yours evidently is to feel that it's ok for certain clients to get better opinions from the opinion sellers than other clients. |
#43
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Hi Luke im sure they will ,, never had issues with them ,,im sure snowman will be happy..
Last edited by rjackson44; 02-15-2024 at 03:20 AM. |
#44
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With auction houses, there’s a level of expectation that you’re allowed to have by not using more popular platforms such as eBay. Buyers are paying a 20% premium. Least the auction houses can do is provide accurate descriptions. Additionally, this Lou Gehrig card appears blurry in the areas where the creases are. If the creases were disclosed like in some of their other listings, this card would have sold for less as some buyers would have stayed away.
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#45
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IMG_6461.jpeg
Golden pulled something similar with me a few years ago. Card on left was their website and auction catalog image. Card on right is what I got. I Learned my lesson with them. Their reply was crickets |
#46
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I'm sorry you both (and others) had that happen to you!
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Successful NET54 transactions: robw1959, Tyruscobb |
#47
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100% . I watched the videos about shenanigans you went through with auction houses. Since watching, I now ask for additional pictures, including angled shots. Still not always enough when they answer my request (or just resend the same pics as on the site).
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#48
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One concern is that the auction house should have a chance to address this issue before it's made public. I think we can all agree that auction houses are generally great, but are also fallible, and sometimes will make mistakes. And when it happens, I suspect that the AH prefers not to be publicly embarrassed by a mistake. We all make mistakes, yet I suspect none of us is really excited about having those mistakes paraded around in public, even when they're true. On the other side, if an AH makes a mistake, to what extent is it important for the broader collecting community to understand what happened so that we can be aware of the situation, and take appropriate precautions ourselves? Certainly we rightfully expect that AHs are experts on the pieces they are auctioning, the stuff is authentic, accurately represented and described. If the AH isn't meeting that standard, then it seems like the sort of thing that the full industry should care about, to make sure that we're able to protect ourselves against the same sort of situation in the future, but also as a means to help to police the AHs and keep them honest. Not to make this about me, although I clearly can't help myself, but I had something similar happen to me a few years ago. I won an auction from a major AH (not ML) for a collection of items that all turned out to be fake. And not even good fakes, but very obvious and stupid fakes, as they were fantasy pieces with a number of the backs printed on kodak paper, with the kodak logo and everything. As luck would have it, the backs that were printed on kodak paper weren't shown in the pics on the AH listing. Similar to Travis, I posted about it here, both because I thought the community should know, and because I wanted to push the AH to act on it. And the response to my post was somewhat similar: some thought I should have waited a while longer before posting to give the AH a chance to fix it before I went public, and others supported me and found the mistakes of the AH to be deeply troubling. I'm not here to re-litigate my experience working through that process with that AH, although I'm happy to report that the AH addressed the issue and refunded my payment. I'm hopeful that Travis will have a similarly positive outcome.
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Trying to wrap up my master mays set, with just a few left: 1968 American Oil left side 1971 Bazooka numbered complete panel |
#49
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Anyone who is backing the AH on this should be ashamed of themselves. This is clearly misrepresentation, and the fact that they doubled down after Travis contacted them is an absolute joke. Will be steering very clear of Memory Lane in the future
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#50
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They still have a chance to make it right though. They didn't tell me to pound sand. At least not yet. They asked me to send it back to them so they can review it.
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If it's not perfectly centered, I probably don't want it. |
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