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#1
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You could send this video to SGC and they arent' going to care one bit.
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If it's not perfectly centered, I probably don't want it. |
#2
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He did just a tad more than wipe off boogers with the ‘86 Fleer Jordan. https://youtu.be/LWuaizTLJfQ?si=rKY6WLGzavbpIQhy Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro |
#3
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It's not surprising to see you write this.
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Eric Perry Currently collecting: T206 (132/524) 1956 Topps Baseball (190/342) "You can observe a lot by just watching." - Yogi Berra |
#4
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And it's not surprising to see a bunch of boomers in here screaming at clouds again. Like it or not, cleaning a baseball card is not a crime, and it's also allowed by every single TPG. The majority of vintage cards that have any sort of eye appeal at all have been cleaned. If you aren't OK with that, then you should just sell your collection right now, because nobody else cares. In fact most collectors would prefer them cleaned.
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If it's not perfectly centered, I probably don't want it. |
#5
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Comics are cleaned and pressed all the time..
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*********** USAF Veteran 84-94 *********** |
#6
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Yeah, not sure if we’re supposed to be upset about this? As far as I’m concerned, it’s removing stuff that got there after the card was made, making it even closer to its original authentic state. Cool stuff
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Collecting nice-looking but poorly graded cards of legendary HOFers |
#7
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Eric Perry Currently collecting: T206 (132/524) 1956 Topps Baseball (190/342) "You can observe a lot by just watching." - Yogi Berra |
#8
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I'd like to know what is in these allegedly natural proprietary solutions this dude is using and selling. And no, I don't want cards cleaned in them, but realistically it's probably hard to detect unless something like bleach or the equivalent is used to create an artificially bright appearance.
The prevailing ethos may well be moving towards the comics model where a lot of things are acceptable.
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My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#9
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Once grading got involved in was inevitable.
We will see lots of people able to get out major creases, ink etc. and nobody ever know. I don't necessarily have a problem with it. That's probably because I don't have cards graded. Quote:
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[FONT="Lucida Sans Unicode"]CampyFan39 Last edited by campyfan39; 01-17-2024 at 07:26 PM. |
#10
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If you think this wasn’t going on long.before grading became the norm you are a fool. It existed before PSA was a company by many many years and was a big reason PSA was able to gain some traction. Yes I get the Wagner was trimmed. That card should never have been graded but it was and that was wrong but at the same time from a business perspective it wasn’t and would have been slabbed at that time by any company that existed. Right or wrong. But thinking card doctoring is somehow a product of card grading is truly asinine thinking. As for this card in the og post if it is just water I have no issue with soaking if it’s chemicals it’s wrong but people will do it anyways.
Last edited by glynparson; 01-19-2024 at 01:34 AM. |
#11
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Kurts has done far more than this. I've seen their crease/dent/corner fixes on the Discords. I get that we want to separate water from chemicals but what, half this board has done basically the same thing that's in this particular video?
Obviously it is not a crime to alter a card and nobody thinks it is - selling it while covering that up and not disclosing the truth can be. Of course, this problem all goes away if people just stop playing the game. At least half the people on the anti-alteration side seem to collect and pay premiums for PSA, SGC, et al. As long as we have incompetent graders founded on the myth of an altered card, and most people paying far more money for a made up higher number on their slab than a similarly made up lower one, this is the inevitable result. If folks stopped playing this stupid game, there wouldn't be so many stupid prizes. The game will continue as long as the vast majority are playing this game when they vote with their wallets, if not the mouth. I am more bothered by the grading companies completely lying about the grade to juice a card (see the last BN Ruth, the 9.5 Mantle, that recent T206 Wagner, etc.) or changing grades for certain submitters and former employees than I am that they cannot tell what is altered and don't put much value on improving that situation. And that's why I have stacks of raw cards with creases and stains and boogers laying around my desk. If someone has removed a crease, they got nothing out of doing it and it doesn't affect me any. |
#12
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I can understand those on the side of concluding that Kurt is altering cards, but in reality the "spray" (his other product, the polish - is not for vintage cards) is quick evaporating, and doesn't leave anything detectable on the cards. It just doesn't.
I bought some last year just out of morbid curiosity; not because I was interested in starting a card doctoring business. The spray is described as a "lubricant" by Kurt, and he claims it's all natural. Beyond that of course, he won't say what it is. It's not water, but it also doesn't smell overly chemical. I had moderate success with removing wrinkles (on lower grade vintage common cards in my PC), and more with things like making crunched corners sharp again - and in the end decided that while novel and certainly interesting, a future in using Kurt's products - even if only on my own cards - wasn't for me. Just my two cents - but Kurt's methods are a sideshow right now, and very much a moot point when you have the top grading companies that cannot detect real alteration - trimming and other more heinous type things in many cases on expensive vintage cards. If the Gary Mosers of the world can get much worse stuff by PSA, then going after someone like Kurt - yes even if you consider it alteration - is going to be a huge waste of time. Another of his recommended tricks which involves putting a card in a humidor really does only use water - and under the right conditions - I would imagine a dent or wrinkle could also be removed from a card with humidity by accident in an attic or something. I don't see how anyone could claim that is alteration - although it's yet to be seen on a lot of those I think if the problem would somehow later "come back." But hey, some 1974 Kellogg's cards in PSA 10 slabs get exposed to temperature and humidity and wind up cracking later in the slab. They're still PSA 10's, right? ![]() This debate will go on, but I would agree that current sentiment in the hobby may see things like some forms of out-of-the-closet restoration become acceptable. Again, I totally agree with the right of those who think it's wrong to hold their own opinions. As with many other things however, sometimes you can't do anything about it.
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Postwar stars & HOF'ers. Bowman Cubs. Junk Wax nostalgia... Last edited by jchcollins; 01-17-2024 at 08:27 PM. |
#13
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Water is a chemical. I don't see how dropping a piece of cardboard in water doesn't alter the chemistry of the card. Looking at the before and after photos of the front of the card, the after photo is less vibrant, higher grade notwithstanding.
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Contact me if you have any Dave Kingman cards / memorabilia for sale. |
#14
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This thread is fascinating and I hope it keeps going. I didn't know some of the stuff on his videos was even possible. This guy could literally make a living submitting cards he fixed. He has a surgeon's hand and the patience of Job! No way I have ether of those.
The best post on here IMO is the one I quoted part of. If people stopped participating in the pecker measuring contests (aka the registrys) then there would be no conversations about any of this. Quote:
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[FONT="Lucida Sans Unicode"]CampyFan39 Last edited by campyfan39; 01-18-2024 at 06:57 PM. |
#15
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The opinion sellers allow anything as long as they get paid.
Last edited by doug.goodman; 01-17-2024 at 06:57 PM. |
#16
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As was also pointed out, SGC and others have in the fine print that you can't "knowingly" submit altered cards, but clearly it's never been a policy to police this. How would that remotely be in their interests? On the assumption that many people unknowingly submit altered cards, they have a wide range of services to accommodate that, which includes still getting your card slabbed with a nice explanation of what you didn't know (wink wink) when you subbed it on the flip.
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Postwar stars & HOF'ers. Bowman Cubs. Junk Wax nostalgia... Last edited by jchcollins; 01-17-2024 at 08:36 PM. |
#17
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Removing gunk is ok, not sure just what his formula is, but I'd be concerned about how it affects things long term. But the fixing creases, corner dings edge dents... no, that's not ok. One pic on his site shows a 74 Topps with at least one entirely rebuilt corner. |
#18
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To each his own. Personally I don't have a problem with someone removing something that wasn't on a card when it was printed. I do find some of the after grades questionable though.
Does anyone want to take a guess on the before and after grades on this one? Dahlen Sov 350.jpg Dahlen Sov 350 back.jpg |
#19
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One question. What was it soaked in? Water or some "miracle" cleanser? I have a feeling your going to tell us it went from a 2 to a 1.5 since it now has paper loss on the back.
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#20
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You're correct on the before grade. Last edited by Pat R; 01-18-2024 at 12:21 PM. |
#21
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Dahlen 2 to 5.jpg |
#22
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I'm hoping this is one of those trick questions and we all get an answer that most people would like to see, for example BEFORE: 2.5, AFTER: AUTH Probably not...
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fr3d c0wl3s - always looking for OJs and other 19th century stuff. PM or email me if you have something cool you're looking to find a new home for. Last edited by Fred; 01-18-2024 at 03:40 PM. |
#23
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Rebuilt corner, maybe - but how? Not for profit or anything other than purposes of my own experimentation, but I have gotten a crunched corner back to NM appearing state on a junk era card before using nothing more than his spray and a few minutes time. By “rebuilt corner” I’m thinking many are envisioning razors and glue and donor cardboard. That’s not at all what Kurt does or teaches. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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Postwar stars & HOF'ers. Bowman Cubs. Junk Wax nostalgia... |
#24
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No way that's a bit of water and poking with a stick. |
#25
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I did his corner trick using only the spray and a cotton applicator on a 1984 Donruss card, and even with references to the pics you attached - let's just say you would be surprised. I'd be glad to hand you as stack of '84 Donruss cards and invite you to point out the one I worked on. You wouldn't be able to. People can think that cleaning or "corner improvement" is alteration all they want, but at the end of the day it's all a moot point if no residue or trace is left behind; if nothing is added or removed. A TPG is not going to call a card like that altered, nor should they.
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Postwar stars & HOF'ers. Bowman Cubs. Junk Wax nostalgia... Last edited by jchcollins; 01-19-2024 at 08:04 AM. |
#26
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If it's not perfectly centered, I probably don't want it. |
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