Gone with the stain

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by G1911

I agree that PSA is unlikely to become competent (or not corrupt, one can take their pick). Many people cannot tell the alterations.

But I don't think that is justification (very different from 'realistic'), and doesn't mean one shouldn't object to it. That the fraud goes undetected does not make it okay.



Your original argument here is not that it's realistic to acknowledge it will happen and the graders will certify them anyways. Your statement as written is that frauds (as not disclosing alterations is) that are not detected are unobjectionable. Getting away with the crime doesn't make it unobjectionable. Selling a knock off to someone they don't know isn't real and looks pretty close isn't alright. Many in the hobby clearly feel that any and everything is fine if it gets into a slab and PSA certifies the fraud, but I have a hard time seeing any ethical argument for the original statement.

I insinuated that, yes. Whether or not I actually feel that was most of the time is another matter. So, regardless of how I feel as one collector - let's say it's not ok. What do you propose we do about it? I can hate doctors and trimmers and other alteration hacks all day long in theory.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

I insinuated that, yes. Whether or not I actually feel that was most of the time is another matter. So, regardless of how I feel as one collector - let's say it's not ok. What do you propose we do about it? I can hate doctors and trimmers and other alteration hacks all day long in theory.

Of course, you might say things you do not believe, but as it is a text based message board people will reply to the actual statements made, not your unstated thoughts that cannot possibly be read.

Never have I insinuated, obviously, that people have the ability to stop other people from doing bad things. Where there is money there will be fraud. There are many, many far worse things than this in the world that A) I have no meaningful power to stop but B) am cognizant are wrong and am strongly against. One can only recognize a problem if they have the authority to stop it? That would be rather absurd. One can object to a plethora of wrong things while not having the power to stop it. Obviously I cannot snap my fingers and put an end to fraud. That is an absurdist setup. There isn't a crime in the world we could recognize as a crime if this was how it worked.

People, of course, could greatly reduce the fraud by declining to be a party to it and continuing to pay card alterers, fraudsters, and paying many multiples of a cards value for a slab form a firm that cannot tell a CJ Mack from a Dover Mack.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I met Dick and had many back and forths with him here He was very up front about his services, some of which were minor and some of which IMO were more objectionable. The problem was that his customers were in large part using his services to deceive. And he had to know this. I don't know anything about the business after Dick's passing.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I met Dick and had many back and forths with him here He was very up front about his services, some of which were minor and some of which IMO were more objectionable. The problem was that his customers were in large part using his services to deceive. And he had to know this. I don't know anything about the business after Dick's passing.

I was kind of expecting a bit more of a rant about card doctoring from you, Peter. But maybe you're just tired of repeating yourself!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by raulus

I was kind of expecting a bit more of a rant about card doctoring from you, Peter. But maybe you're just tired of repeating yourself!

What is left to say, my friend? The broader hobby doesn't care, the government isn't taking action it seems, I'm back to just avoiding bad cards as best I can.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

What is left to say, my friend? The broader hobby doesn't care, the government isn't taking action it seems, I'm back to just avoiding bad cards as best I can.

Fair enough. I guess you always seemed so full of piss and vinegar when it comes to card doctoring that you could chew nails and spit rust. But I guess at some point it probably starts to seem like a Sisyphean battle.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by raulus

Fair enough. I guess you always seemed so full of piss and vinegar when it comes to card doctoring that you could chew nails and spit rust. But I guess at some point it probably starts to seem like a Sisyphean battle.

My enthusiasm was fueled by the expectation or at least hope that something finally was going to be done against some bad players. At some point playing Don Quixote is stupid lol.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by G1911

Of course, you might say things you do not believe, but as it is a text based message board people will reply to the actual statements made, not your unstated thoughts that cannot possibly be read.

Never have I insinuated, obviously, that people have the ability to stop other people from doing bad things. Where there is money there will be fraud. There are many, many far worse things than this in the world that A) I have no meaningful power to stop but B) am cognizant are wrong and am strongly against. One can only recognize a problem if they have the authority to stop it? That would be rather absurd. One can object to a plethora of wrong things while not having the power to stop it. Obviously I cannot snap my fingers and put an end to fraud. That is an absurdist setup. There isn't a crime in the world we could recognize as a crime if this was how it worked.

People, of course, could greatly reduce the fraud by declining to be a party to it and continuing to pay card alterers, fraudsters, and paying many multiples of a cards value for a slab form a firm that cannot tell a CJ Mack from a Dover Mack.

I'm not a party to, nor a proponent of - alteration or fraud upon baseball cards. Please consider any of my earlier insinuations clarified. Excuse me now while I go flip through some of my favorite slabs, whether they be altered and unidentified - or clean.

Greg - My point here was more simply to the fact that if you can't tell, you can't tell. And that will continue to be problematic for many of us, no matter the stance of our piety on alteration and doctoring issues.

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

I insinuated that, yes. Whether or not I actually feel that was most of the time is another matter. So, regardless of how I feel as one collector - let's say it's not ok. What do you propose we do about it? I can hate doctors and trimmers and other alteration hacks all day long in theory.

I think to start, let's not promote companies that alter cards.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by Gorditadogg

I think to start, let's not promote companies that alter cards.

I can agree with that, Al.

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

I can agree with that, Al.

John, I know you were just sharing your frustration, that many of us have, with the bad actors that are putting fake and altered cards in circulation. It doesn't seem like we can get rid of them.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by Gorditadogg

John, I know you were just sharing your frustration, that many of us have, with the bad actors that are putting fake and altered cards in circulation. It doesn't seem like we can get rid of them.

I understand how my first comment here in this thread might have come off. I'm just more apt to point out the realistic problems with doing something sometimes than starting with what is right theoretically.

For example: Last weekend at one of my LCS's - I bought an absolutely gorgeous, raw 1968 Topps Steve Carlton. If this card is not technically mint, it's close: Razor corners, clean edges, perfect centering, rich color and gloss, focused sharp image - even the back is perfectly centered and vibrant. Now - say that somewhere on the back there once had been an errant ink stain, or some kid's initials or something. I doubt it given a very close review of this card, but as we know with the best doctors lately unfortunately - it's probably possible. Say that Dick T. had gotten ahold of this card, altered the hell out of it with some type of magic solvent - and now there is no trace whatsoever of something that would have rendered a card otherwise an 8 or a 9 down to a 1 or an A.

It's like my mind just cannot get there from here. What can we do when even through modern science - you just can't tell? Undoubtedly - there are countless Ruths and Cobbs and Mantle RC's like this that someone like Dick messed with - residing in numbered and high numbered PSA and other slabs today - and people treasure them.

I guess for me it's just more glaring like with the work the BODA has done over on Blowout - where you can see cards that were obviously - if only slightly and very professionally - trimmed. You can point a finger at that and scream. Much like you could the "autographed" Goudey cards of deceased HOF'ers that JSA and SGC signed off on, only to have glaring proof via photographs come out later of the same cards with identifying marks - unsigned long after the players pictured had passed.

I see that the argument has to start theoretically - it just bothers me that logically it seems so doomed to fail.