Too Much Offense in the NFL

[Seven]

Growing up, as the youngest, my a good margin in a large family, I was often regaled with tales of the great QB's of the past. Stories of Tarkenton, Staubach, Bradshaw, Unitas, Marino, Montana, etc. Shown grainy film and VHS tapes of games recorded some time ago, and also shown statistics.

Now I think pure numbers are emphasized a little less in Football, but I remember marveling over the passing numbers of all of these players, especially seeing Montana's career passer rating, as I couldn't believe how high it was.

Nowadays I feel like the NFL might as well be playing two hand touch football with these offensive statistics. We've blown past any sort of rationality, especially within the passing game. I think worst of all is that people are looking at the game strictly in the context of numbers. Uninformed fans claiming that "X player is better than Unitas because look at the passing numbers, Unitas threw over 250 Interceptions." it's quite frankly ridiculous.

I hear all this talk about the modern receivers and breaking records and it just blows my mind. We went from a game that only the bravest would attempt to cross the middle of the field, to now if you even touch a guy too hard it's a penalty. There has to be some sort of happy medium.

At least rushing records are safe. We can still happily talk about the likes of Jim Brown, and Walter Payton.

[mrreality68]

I agree with you but the NFL is changing to keep players safe (remember all those law suits claiming the players never the risks and the dangers) but also want to keep the sport entertaining people love high scoring action packed games and unique end zone entertainment celebrations.(I hate those). So they made rules tougher on the Defenders and more fouls called to drive up the scores

[packs]

Maybe the NFL can take Manfred off baseball’s hands.

[Seven]

Originally Posted by mrreality68

I agree with you but the NFL is changing to keep players safe (remember all those law suits claiming the players never the risks and the dangers) but also want to keep the sport entertaining people love high scoring action packed games and unique end zone entertainment celebrations.(I hate those). So they made rules tougher on the Defenders and more fouls called to drive up the scores

I fully understand the "Keep players safe" arguement but no one could possibly think that having 300 pound men, mauling the hell out of one another on the gridiron would be good for their brain health.

I think we've also seen a notable rise in lower body injuries ever since more teams have moved to turf. I also agree that the high scoring games is what drives casual fan interest.

I thought the rules were okay in the mid 2000's. I'd be okay with going back to that.

[D. Bergin]

As somebody who's had a few concussions in his life, I'm happy to see less concussions in the NFL.

Also, hate seeing games dictated by the referee every time a defensive player brushes up against Tom Brady or Justin Herberts shoulder pads .00001 seconds after they release the ball, or they actually sack them, and don't properly cradle them on the way to the ground....even though it looks like sometimes, they are trying to cushion their sacks, so they don't get a penalty called on them....and they get the Roughing the Passer call anyways.

Certain QB's are also obviously much more protected then others...and it's usually contingent on how much they complain to the referees. Peyton Manning and Tom Brady were always more protected then Eli Manning and Ben Roethlisberger.

I think how the game is played today, makes a guy like Jerry Rice, even more impressive. The stats he put up are almost Gretzky like, and he did it during a time when concussing a Wide Receiver running across the middle was celebrated and plastered on all the clip packages on the ESPN highlights.

Also, like Gretzky...Rice was never the biggest or fastest or scariest player on the field. Just the smartest, and with the reflexes and skill to only need the tiniest bit of separation in order to dominate.

Even with the more relaxed rules for QB's and WR's, there's nobody active right now within spitting distance of many of Rice's records. Julio Jones looked like he might have a chance in the Yards and Receptions categories, but he's already aging out of the sport. DeAndre Hopkins is a longshot, but he'll always have the PED tag on him, Larry Fitzgerald got close but finally got too old to play.

[Seven]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

As somebody who's had a few concussions in his life, I'm happy to see less concussions in the NFL.

Also, hate seeing games dictated by the referee every time a defensive player brushes up against Tom Brady or Justin Herberts shoulder pads .00001 seconds after they release the ball, or they actually sack them, and don't properly cradle them on the way to the ground....even though it looks like sometimes, they are trying to cushion their sacks, so they don't get a penalty called on them....and they get the Roughing the Passer call anyways.

Certain QB's are also obviously much more protected then others...and it's usually contingent on how much they complain to the referees. Peyton Manning and Tom Brady were always more protected then Eli Manning and Ben Roethlisberger.

I think how the game is played today, makes a guy like Jerry Rice, even more impressive. The stats he put up are almost Gretzky like, and he did it during a time when concussing a Wide Receiver running across the middle was celebrated and plastered on all the clip packages on the ESPN highlights.

Also, like Gretzky...Rice was never the biggest or fastest or scariest player on the field. Just the smartest, and with the reflexes and skill to only need the tiniest bit of separation in order to dominate.

Even with the more relaxed rules for QB's and WR's, there's nobody active right now within spitting distance of many of Rice's records. Julio Jones looked like he might have a chance in the Yards and Receptions categories, but he's already aging out of the sport. DeAndre Hopkins is a longshot, but he'll always have the PED tag on him, Larry Fitzgerald got close but finally got too old to play.

Agree on many points. I think Larry Fitzgerald would've done immensely better had he had a competent QB for the majority of his career. We saw what he did with a couple of seasons with Warner and Palmer.

[BobbyStrawberry]

I barely follow the NFL these days, but it's the same in the NBA currently.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by Seven

Agree on many points. I think Larry Fitzgerald would've done immensely better had he had a competent QB for the majority of his career. We saw what he did with a couple of seasons with Warner and Palmer.

True about Fitzgerald. Lots of bad QB’s during his career.

[Peter_Spaeth]

On football reference's HOF monitor, Rice literally has more than DOUBLE the points of the next receiver, Randy Moss. It's more absurd than even Gretzky. That he is the best WR ever is simply beyond any colorable dispute.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/hof/hofm_WR.htm

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

On football reference's HOF monitor, Rice literally has more than DOUBLE the points of the next receiver, Randy Moss. It's more absurd than even Gretzky. That he is the best WR ever is simply beyond any colorable dispute.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/hof/hofm_WR.htm

+1 agreed and great comparison to show the depth of his greatness

[ClementeFanOh]

Sounds like many of the commenters are swimming in the same waters that I
am, regarding the quality of NFL. I find that league joyless and, most
importantly, BORING. I fit the demographic of someone who "should" watch
and it's not even a thought. Haven't even watched a Super Bowl in 20 years.
Gross, watered down, garbage entertainment- hard pass. Trent King

[1952boyntoncollector]

What about all those 3's in the NBA as well. Why do teams get rewarded for taking a shot thats available without any real offense and is worth 50% more than a 2 point shot. The 3 is available at any time during a shot clock. Also there is no 3 second rule if you just stand there is the corner 3 spot unlike in the Paint for 3 seconds. A lot of the 3's shooters wouldnt play any real minutes in the NBA in the 1990s etc.

[mrreality68]

I like the NFL game and how it has been evolving and i believe in the safety of the players (As best as possible in a full contact sport) but I want it more balanced so both the offense and the defense has a level playing field and less flags flown to keep the flow of the game going. Also the Refs have to be better trained and held accountable to the many suspect calls we have seen this year and in the last few years

[Seven]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

What about all those 3's in the NBA as well. Why do teams get rewarded for taking a shot thats available without any real offense and is worth 50% more than a 2 point shot. The 3 is available at any time during a shot clock. Also there is no 3 second rule if you just stand there is the corner 3 spot unlike in the Paint for 3 seconds. A lot of the 3's shooters wouldnt play any real minutes in the NBA in the 1990s etc.

I think the NBA is an entirely different can of worms. I'll say this much however. When gaudy numbers are being posted night after night, and the Triple-Double has become trivialized, it can be safely said that the sport has jumped the shark.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

What about all those 3's in the NBA as well. Why do teams get rewarded for taking a shot thats available without any real offense and is worth 50% more than a 2 point shot. The 3 is available at any time during a shot clock. Also there is no 3 second rule if you just stand there is the corner 3 spot unlike in the Paint for 3 seconds. A lot of the 3's shooters wouldnt play any real minutes in the NBA in the 1990s etc.

I think the original intent was to allow for something relatively difficult and exceptional to create drama and entertainment, but it's just become way too easy as skill levels have evolved.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I think the original intent was to allow for something relatively difficult and exceptional to create drama and entertainment, but it's just become way too easy as skill levels have evolved.

You dont think larry bird could of hit tons of 3s if wanted to and so many of the greats in the past?

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

You dont think larry bird could of hit tons of 3s if wanted to and so many of the greats in the past?

Basketball hadn't been "Moneyballed" yet with analytics, to realize it was a much more efficient shot then a mid-range 2.

If it had, Bird would have put up much more 3's. Also, much more hand-checking and physical defense at the perimeter, made a 3 a much tougher shot then it is now.

It's still a tough shot, don't get confused. Most normal people can't hit an NBA length 3 to save their lives. It's just practiced much more now through repetition, then it used to be, from a much younger age by promising young players.

Math has shown us, the only shot that might be more efficient to take, is a dunk...and even then it's pretty damn close.

...and what Steph Curry has done, regularly hitting shots from 5-10 feet beyond the 3 point line...that's...that's not normal. From a physics standpoint it should be nearly impossible. It's more demoralizing then a dunk over your best defensive player, when you try to double team a guy out by the half court line, and he can still get himself free and put up a high value shot (for him anyways).

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

Basketball hadn't been "Moneyballed" yet with analytics, to realize it was a much more efficient shot then a mid-range 2.

If it had, Bird would have put up much more 3's. Also, much more hand-checking and physical defense at the perimeter, made a 3 a much tougher shot then it is now.

It's still a tough shot, don't get confused. Most normal people can't hit an NBA length 3 to save their lives. It's just practiced much more now through repetition, then it used to be, from a much younger age by promising young players.

Math has shown us, the only shot that might be more efficient to take, is a dunk...and even then it's pretty damn close.

...and what Steph Curry has done, regularly hitting shots from 5-10 feet beyond the 3 point line...that's...that's not normal. From a physics standpoint it should be nearly impossible. It's more demoralizing then a dunk over your best defensive player, when you try to double team a guy out by the half court line, and he can still get himself free and put up a high value shot (for him anyways).

right you are rewarded with bail out 3..which counts the same as driving to the lane getting off a tough assist getting fouled hard but still make the shot..then you make the FT...

they just need a 3 second rule within a few feet out the the 3 line...or a 3 should be 2.5 points really in value...its not worth 50 percent more than 2 in terms of difficulty

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

right you are rewarded with bail out 3..which counts the same as driving to the lane getting off a tough assist getting fouled hard but still make the shot..then you make the FT...

they just need a 3 second rule within a few feet out the the 3 line...or a 3 should be 2.5 points really in value...its not worth 50 percent more than 2 in terms of difficulty

You're only rewarded if you actually hit the shot, and teams are still allowed to defend the 3 point line. There's no Manute Bol rule for defenders on the perimeter.

[JollyElm]

As a rabid Buffalo Bills fan (Go Buff!!!!!!!!), I miss the mud bowls, the snow bowls and all of that deliciousness. The weather being an extreme factor was a beautifully entertaining thing, but now they employ a thousand people (snow archaeologists?) and machines to dig down and find the turf, until all you see is a field of green. Gimme the white and brown again!!!!!!!!!!!

Back to the OP's point, the way Andre Reed fearlessly covered the middle of the field, getting absolutely hammered whether or not he caught the ball, is something that is gone with the (lake effect) wind. For safety's sake, that's obviously a very good, necessary thing, but for smash mouth football it's a bit of a shame.

The biggest problem I see these days are the roughing the passer penalties (yes, contrarians, I know you're going to state something to the effect of, "RTP penalties are actually down this year"). There has got to be a lot more leeway on what constitutes a foul. Protecting the QB is one thing, but the examples have to be more blatantly penalty worthy. It's a risky job, so if you stay in the pocket, you have to expect the hammer to come down. If an LB gets to you right after you release the ball, come on now!! That's NOT a penalty. If you toss the ball and a DE takes a few steps and then clobbers you, that IS a penalty. There's got to be a better balance. Those free 15 yards and a first down on a ridiculous call can decide games.

[Seven]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

As a rabid Buffalo Bills fan (Go Buff!!!!!!!!), I miss the mud bowls, the snow bowls and all of that deliciousness. The weather being an extreme factor was a beautifully entertaining thing, but now they employ a thousand people (snow archaeologists?) and machines to dig down and find the turf, until all you see is a field of green. Gimme the white and brown again!!!!!!!!!!!

Back to the OP's point, the way Andre Reed fearlessly covered the middle of the field, getting absolutely hammered whether or not he caught the ball, is something that is gone with the (lake effect) wind. For safety's sake, that's obviously a very good, necessary thing, but for smash mouth football it's a bit of a shame.

The biggest problem I see these days are the roughing the passer penalties (yes, contrarians, I know you're going to state something to the effect of, "RTP penalties are actually down this year"). There has got to be a lot more leeway on what constitutes a foul. Protecting the QB is one thing, but the examples have to be more blatantly penalty worthy. It's a risky job, so if you stay in the pocket, you have to expect the hammer to come down. If an LB gets to you right after you release the ball, come on now!! That's NOT a penalty. If you toss the ball and a DE takes a few steps and then clobbers you, that IS a penalty. There's got to be a better balance. Those free 15 yards and a first down on a ridiculous call can decide games.

I've seen some of the old school, terrible weather games, and what a site those were to see. Different levels of toughness in the game back in its day. Slightly off topic but the toughness that the football players had back in the day is rarely seen today.

I agree the penalties are definitely a source of these inflated numbers as well.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

As a rabid Buffalo Bills fan (Go Buff!!!!!!!!), I miss the mud bowls, the snow bowls and all of that deliciousness. The weather being an extreme factor was a beautifully entertaining thing, but now they employ a thousand people (snow archaeologists?) and machines to dig down and find the turf, until all you see is a field of green. Gimme the white and brown again!!!!!!!!!!!

Back to the OP's point, the way Andre Reed fearlessly covered the middle of the field, getting absolutely hammered whether or not he caught the ball, is something that is gone with the (lake effect) wind. For safety's sake, that's obviously a very good, necessary thing, but for smash mouth football it's a bit of a shame.

The biggest problem I see these days are the roughing the passer penalties (yes, contrarians, I know you're going to state something to the effect of, "RTP penalties are actually down this year"). There has got to be a lot more leeway on what constitutes a foul. Protecting the QB is one thing, but the examples have to be more blatantly penalty worthy. It's a risky job, so if you stay in the pocket, you have to expect the hammer to come down. If an LB gets to you right after you release the ball, come on now!! That's NOT a penalty. If you toss the ball and a DE takes a few steps and then clobbers you, that IS a penalty. There's got to be a better balance. Those free 15 yards and a first down on a ridiculous call can decide games.

Most don't do it yet, but I've seen a couple QB's flop like an Italian Soccer player who just saw a ghost.

Hope it doesn't become commonplace, but if you incentivize it like they have...it sure will.

Oh, and all these amazing comebacks we've seen lately. It's feeling a lot like early 2000's NBA, Tim Donaghy era reffing. Less about favoritism and more about keeping the games close, just to keep fans invested in the games.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

You're only rewarded if you actually hit the shot, and teams are still allowed to defend the 3 point line. There's no Manute Bol rule for defenders on the perimeter.

Hitting a 3 is not hard to do when there is no 3 second rule near the 3 point line. There are many players on benches in the NBA and not in the league that can hit 80 percent from 3 that is wide open which I would to me means not hard to do...probably even a higher rate. There is a reason there are so many wide open 3s..(or at least no hands in the face or very very late contest)

You can say teams are allowed to defend the 3..so why not take out the 3 second rule in the paint because teams are allowed to defend the paint as well. So why even put a 3 second rule in paint..

so your 'allowed too' argument does not work here as there already are rules in place to 'fix' issues.....baseball now doing this with getting rid of the shift.


I believe they banned the slam dunk for awhile, afterall why ban it , you were allowed to defend the dunk as well

[BobC]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

Hitting a 3 is not hard to do when there is no 3 second rule near the 3 point line. There are many players on benches in the NBA and not in the league that can hit 80 percent from 3 that is wide open which I would to me means not hard to do...probably even a higher rate. There is a reason there are so many wide open 3s..(or at least no hands in the face or very very late contest)

You can say teams are allowed to defend the 3..so why not take out the 3 second rule in the paint because teams are allowed to defend the paint as well. So why even put a 3 second rule in paint..

so your 'allowed too' argument does not work here as there already are rules in place to 'fix' issues.....baseball now doing this with getting rid of the shift.


I believe they banned the slam dunk for awhile, afterall why ban it , you were allowed to defend the dunk as well

The obvious need for a 3-second rule in the paint has more to do to create a level and more fair playing field for those playing in the vastly larger area of non-professional basketball. Of all the major sports, height in basketball is likely the most overly advantageous attribute that can exist, and has literally nothing to do with a player's actual talent or ability. People can work on quickness, jumping ability, hand-eye coordination, and so on, but you can't teach or learn height. So, for the vast number of kids playing basketball at say the junior high or high school level, you are already at a severe disadvantage if you aren't lucky enough to have a student or two that is excessively tall for their age, and that actually wants to play. Remove the 3-seconds in the paint rule and you'll end up having the lucky school/team with a super tall player just have him/her stand in front of the basket and wait for their teammate to simply toss the ball to them, and they just turn around and drop it through the hoop. The shorter opposing players aren't tall enough to stop it and that isn't a game, it is just a joke. Making the opposing team's excessively tall player have to move in and out of the paint at least gives the shorter team a fighting chance to try to defend and somehow stop or at least slow down the taller player's advantage.

Changing this most basic of rules at just the pro level would likely alienate a lot of fans that otherwise expect the game to be played at least somewhat similarly to how it was when they themselves played it. That is actually one of the true beauties of baseball. Even an average looking person of typical/normal height and weight could become a superstar ballplayer. Meanwhile, the average NBA player looks almost nothing like a normal, everyday person.

[D. Bergin]

Grumpy old guys explanation in the 80's-90's for why they don't watch NBA Basketball - "It's just dunks and free throws. There's no skill anymore. No passing. Not enough long range shooting."

Grumpy old guys explanation in the 10's-20's for why they don't watch NBA Basketball - "It's just 3's and free throws. There's no skill anymore. No passing. Not enough inside game."


The above has been typed out by a grumpy old guy.

[Peter_Spaeth]

97 points in the TCU Michigan game. 44 in the third quarter. Not my cup of tea, but dramatc. And now 52 points at halftime of OSU Georgia.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by BobC

The obvious need for a 3-second rule in the paint has more to do to create a level and more fair playing field for those playing in the vastly larger area of non-professional basketball. Of all the major sports, height in basketball is likely the most overly advantageous attribute that can exist, and has literally nothing to do with a player's actual talent or ability. People can work on quickness, jumping ability, hand-eye coordination, and so on, but you can't teach or learn height. So, for the vast number of kids playing basketball at say the junior high or high school level, you are already at a severe disadvantage if you aren't lucky enough to have a student or two that is excessively tall for their age, and that actually wants to play. Remove the 3-seconds in the paint rule and you'll end up having the lucky school/team with a super tall player just have him/her stand in front of the basket and wait for their teammate to simply toss the ball to them, and they just turn around and drop it through the hoop. The shorter opposing players aren't tall enough to stop it and that isn't a game, it is just a joke. Making the opposing team's excessively tall player have to move in and out of the paint at least gives the shorter team a fighting chance to try to defend and somehow stop or at least slow down the taller player's advantage.

Changing this most basic of rules at just the pro level would likely alienate a lot of fans that otherwise expect the game to be played at least somewhat similarly to how it was when they themselves played it. That is actually one of the true beauties of baseball. Even an average looking person of typical/normal height and weight could become a superstar ballplayer. Meanwhile, the average NBA player looks almost nothing like a normal, everyday person.

A tall player can still shoot a 3 over players as well. All teams can have Tall players guard the paint, instead of all of the 3 pointer shooters if there was no 3 second in the paint rule there could a ton of Bigs, afterall you can just pass it back to the 3 point line for a 3....3's are worth more than 2s..........basically your argument of just stop it if dont want them to shoot 3s doesnt work with the 3 second rule in the paint point i was making (they cant just stop the in the paint scoring it appears, so perhaps they cant stop the 3 point shooting either). Its not strange for a Pro league to have a different rule then the non pro leagues so that argument is flawed as well.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

Grumpy old guys explanation in the 80's-90's for why they don't watch NBA Basketball - "It's just dunks and free throws. There's no skill anymore. No passing. Not enough long range shooting."

Grumpy old guys explanation in the 10's-20's for why they don't watch NBA Basketball - "It's just 3's and free throws. There's no skill anymore. No passing. Not enough inside game."


The above has been typed out by a grumpy old guy.

thats true...its almost the if never know about something you dont complain rule...if all you know as a young man is todays game you dont care about the past...its only people that see changes that complain..

[steve B]

Originally Posted by BobC

The obvious need for a 3-second rule in the paint has more to do to create a level and more fair playing field for those playing in the vastly larger area of non-professional basketball. Of all the major sports, height in basketball is likely the most overly advantageous attribute that can exist, and has literally nothing to do with a player's actual talent or ability. People can work on quickness, jumping ability, hand-eye coordination, and so on, but you can't teach or learn height. So, for the vast number of kids playing basketball at say the junior high or high school level, you are already at a severe disadvantage if you aren't lucky enough to have a student or two that is excessively tall for their age, and that actually wants to play. Remove the 3-seconds in the paint rule and you'll end up having the lucky school/team with a super tall player just have him/her stand in front of the basket and wait for their teammate to simply toss the ball to them, and they just turn around and drop it through the hoop. The shorter opposing players aren't tall enough to stop it and that isn't a game, it is just a joke. Making the opposing team's excessively tall player have to move in and out of the paint at least gives the shorter team a fighting chance to try to defend and somehow stop or at least slow down the taller player's advantage.

Changing this most basic of rules at just the pro level would likely alienate a lot of fans that otherwise expect the game to be played at least somewhat similarly to how it was when they themselves played it. That is actually one of the true beauties of baseball. Even an average looking person of typical/normal height and weight could become a superstar ballplayer. Meanwhile, the average NBA player looks almost nothing like a normal, everyday person.

That's only true up to a point.
One year I tried out for my HS basketball team I wasn't bad at outside shooting. But awful at anything else. I'm average height. The kid who most likely put the final nail in me "im totally getting cut first" coffin was a foot shorter. But he dribbled the ball between my legs on the way to a layup....

And bonus... I went to a small college. Some guys played basketball in the parking lot at lunch. Once in a while they'd need an extra player and sked pretty much anybody including me to join just to keep things going. They were all pretty much average height but with pretty good skills.
One day I happened to be eating at the same table and they were talking about playing against the super tall foreign kif Bridgepot had.
"Wait, why were you guys playing Manute Bol?"
"We had to, we're the basketball team"
"We have a basketball team?!"
"Umm.... yeah, and you've practiced with us."

And that's how I ended up playing occasionally against guys who played against Manute Bol.

They said it was spooky, he hadn't played, and was only taught the basics by then so in the paint there was this voice from way above "1,2,3 step 1,2,3, step"