Graded vs. Raw Rant.......

[gustomania]

So, I grew up in the 80s and collecting mostly mid-80s as a kid but many of those players have cards in the 70's some even the 60's.

While looking at some favorite RC's such as Mattingly, Gooden, Murray, Brett, etc, etc. I started having some questions. What exactly is my thing with PSA graded, I mean I do have virtually all my Koufax PC as PSA graded which I would never change......

BUT...……...when I look at most anything after 1970 and especially mid 70's and 80's its pretty easy to find a decent raw card in EX-MT or NM or even better in bulk. Yeah they might be slightly off center (actually its relatively easy to find centered on many cards TBH) and maybe not MINT or GEM MINT.

So where is that sort of cut off where you go, it has to be graded? I mean I get a RC of say Rose but I'm guessing a Carlton in Ex raw isn't a big deal.

It just strikes me that aside from the 50's and maybe early 60's there is such a major supply in decent shape what is the draw to graded for these?

It seems if I can find 1970 Topps baseball in Ex or better basically in bulk what draws someone to go buy it graded?

Open to thoughts from the experts.....

[mrreality68]

Graded is good for a couple of things

1. New people or inexperienced people getting into collecting and not knowledgeable on cards and afraid what they are buying is either not real or not worth as much as they thought
2. Graded cards are easier to research and compare prices for those same people (we all understand buy the card not the slab but that is not true for everyone)
3. The slabs are good for protecting the cards
4. The Higher End Cards, Rarer cards, and cards with high values tend to sell more in a slab since for example when you put on ebey, auction, etc more people will buy/bid on slabbed cards vs non slabbed card.
5. The biggest value on Raw Cards to the true collector it is the best type of cards and also Raw cards cost to much to slab (unless already slabbed and takes too long although getting better) so keeping it Raw you do not have to worry about those things.
6. Slabbing is becoming more popular as it turns more into a business vs collecting. as you can see at National Show how long lines were, or if you looking at all the grading companies and how many cards they are grading and the backlog many are experiencing and also how much people are willing to pay

[gustomania]

Thanks Jeff, great summary and i'm with you on those points.

Where i'm going with this is more on the lines of a collector viewpoint I guess, sort of ok, well I can pick up a raw Brett RC and any of his other topps base cards from 76-80 for nothing in maybe ex or nm and those are pretty easy to find with pretty low risk tbh.

When the cards are that plentiful (and to be honest in the example above nm-mt is pretty common for anything other than the RC) why pay the premium for graded.

I guess when I buy raw, I don't focus on the overall condition of say a 70's card as long as I feel its somewhere on the lines of "looks good".

Anyway, trying to see what people thoughts are on that dotted line, where is that line where finding a 1965 Gibson in EX is so tough I'm relegated to just buying the PSA 5?

Maybe there is not concrete answer, and everyone collects whatever they like but was curious what collectors on this forum think, especially those who do collect raw over graded.

[homerunhitter]

I created a thread already about this exact topic! And my takeover from all the wonderful advice I got for it. Is that as much as I love raw cards (I’m a true collector not an investor) it appears that graded cards are here to stay in fact, graded cards are transforming our hobby. I say that because as the younger collectors/generation is coming in they are being conditioned that graded cards are cool and hip! Just check out the national as an example. Tons and I mean Tons of people waking around with their pelican cases filled with graded cards. 9 out of 10 Facebook, Instagram, you tube posts are about or showcase graded cards. Graded cards are everywhere! Some will argue that we are headed into s junk down era. I believe we are not as graded cards will become the norm from here on out as newer collectors come into the hobby and us old farts exit the hobby. The tone of the hobby right now is graded is cool!

[gustomania]

Good points!

I feel like i'm headed down a different path. I collect Koufax in PSA and love that PC and wont change that collection. Thinking about going back down into my roots how I collected as a kid which is just raw (yes, I put my cards in spokes and didn't have any sleeves for them).

Hard for me to justify buying say a 77 Murphy PSA 8 or 9 when I can be happy with a NM or NMMT raw card for a fraction and if I want, throw that bad boy in my bike spokes one...….more...…...time. I joke but clearly I'm not in the majority here.

[ALBB]

I dont think Id ever pay to have late 70s/ 80s cards graded

[homerunhitter]

Agree with you! I did an experiment. I sat Down and went through a box of raw vintage cards and then I went through a box of graded vintage cards. Raw cards just pop differently. Something about actually holding a raw card beats holding the same card graded.

Some people might argue that people like graded because they want to know that their card is authentic and not fake. I get that point but does anyone want to open the can of worms of just how many FAKEe psa graded are our in the hobby. Most people want to just turn their head and pretend like there are not fake psa slabs out there. But there is!

[JollyElm]

It's sort of the way cell phones became prominent. In the beginning, very few people had them and others couldn't care less, but then a sea change occurred and everyone on the planet now possesses one, and then gets a better one, and then upgrades that one and on and on. Graded cards used to be a fluke, and many thought it was a passing phase...but look at where we are now. That aspect of card collecting will continue to grow exponentially. That toothpaste is not only out of the tube, but it's been washed down the drain.

Harking back to the OP regarding newer cards, when I started having my own stuff graded through the group subs (all hail Bobby!!!), my cut-off year was 1972 or possibly 1973, with no thought of ever submitting anything newer, because the stuff was way too plentiful. These days? Now I'm looking to the end of the 1970's and even sent in a 1980 hockey card. Again, things have changed, and there's no going back.

But I still freakin' love the smell of old cardboard...

74. Auramatic
Having the pleasingly fragrant, musty old cardboard scent which returns you to the wonders of your card collecting childhood.

[raulus]

It's certainly an interesting philosophical debate.

I think the arguments largely break down into what you prefer, and what you can afford.

Unless you're under 20, you probably grew up with ungraded cards. So for many of us, there's an artistic and aesthetic preference for ungraded. Luckily, ungraded are typically much lower cost as well.

Some people, on the other hand, like the look and feel of the slabs. I'm certainly not going to dictate to anyone else how they should attempt to value art, so to each their own.

And for anyone who loves numbers, competing, and statistics, the grade has a way of attempting to boil all of the card's attributes into a single number. There's certainly plenty to suggest that the numbers assigned to any given card are less than objective, but at the same time it's an attempt to get there. And certainly for someone with means, it's an opportunity to then always be looking to upgrade. While there's an obvious level of competition between collectors, it's often just as much a question about competing against myself as I seek to continually improve my collection.

Does such an exercise merely result in self delusion and spending ungodly sums of money on dubious upgrades? Perhaps. Probably. Almost definitely. Guilty as charged.

[raulus]

Probably should've also mentioned that the PSA Set Registry also helps me to stay organized, keep track of what items I already have in each set, and then work to fill those gaps.

Naturally, there are other ways to track it, but PSA's approach is pretty handy and user friendly.

[gustomania]

Good point on the registry

While I don’t use it anymore, I do use the sports album and love the look I get with my PSA graded cards. This is where I struggle with raw and having a album like PSAs and showcasing them for my viewing pleasure. I’m sure their are other cool options but for me things like flicker just seem clunky and I have no desire to have cards there or anywhere like that.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by gustomania

So where is that sort of cut off where you go, it has to be graded?

It would depend on three factors:

1. Am I buying in-person or relying on pictures?
2. Do I know (and how much do I trust) the seller?
3. What is the value of the card?

If I have the opportunity to view the card in-hand, I'm more likely to purchase a raw card. My post-war collecting is mainly Topps & Bowman. I've handled enough of them to purchase ungraded examples confidently.

If I've built a rapport with the seller, and they've earned my trust, I'm fine with purchasing raw. Of course, I'll ask some questions first to make sure that (a) they're confident it's real and unaltered and (b) that they'll make things right if the card is not real and unaltered.

Value; that's where the rubber meets the road, isn't it? I've purchased raw cards for a couple hundred dollars or so, and felt comfortable doing so. Anything higher than that, I'll go graded 99% of the time. The exception would be when I can check boxes 1 and 2, above.

[homerunhitter]

Let’s see some more updates!

[jingram058]

I do not have any graded cards. I cracked out all the ones I have, but kept the "flips" (if that is the correct term). I keep my high value cards and memorabilia in my safe deposit box. Occasionally, I take some of them out, to show them off somewhere, but then I put them back. It is not far away from where I live. My cards are just cards, a real no-kidding hobby, much like how I went about collecting as a kid, except they cost a lot more and I don't get them out of wax packs. I have traded on occasion, much to the mutual satisfaction of myself and those I traded with, I believe. This is pretty much what I occasionally did as a kid also. I do not plan to have any of my cards graded and I do not collect thinking of value down the road or investment. I do not care one iota for someone else's opinion of my cards, unless we're trading. This forum is all about graded cards and investment. I get that. I still like and respect these guys for their wealth of knowledge and the gorgeous, rare as Hell cards they post, nevertheless there are many, many people out there who have, sell and collect raw cards. I know a few who live near me. So I am by no means the only one. My 2 cents, take it or leave it...

[gonefishin]

Grading cards definitely has a place in the marketplace. With that said, I don't really see the need to send in newer, for me it is 1970 and up, for grading with a one year exception. That exception is 1971 Topps. My main reasoning with that year is of course the black borders. Without some sort of protection, they will easily get damaged, etc. Encapsulation does provide a "fool proof" method of protection for those cards.

[jchcollins]

To me anymore, it largely depends on your goals for your collection, and when if ever you may want to sell that collection. I own a lot of graded cards simply because for the money I was spending in a lot of cases online, I didn’t want to take risks. But due to the inherent subjectivity in all grading, it’s difficult to put too fine of a point on anything due to the fluctuation in quality which exists anyway.

Currently, my own personal opinion is that vintage grading is more all over the place than it’s ever been. Especially with marquee names like Mantle, Aaron, Ryan, and others - you can send in a super sharp card and you may get a 7 - but you might also get a 4 or a 5. This element of subjectivity NEVER changes with the big names, and many collectors can never quite seem to grasp that.

My favorite place to play these days is with raw, lower technical grade cards that present well and still retain eye appeal. The hidden creases that take an otherwise EX Mays to G. The subtle t/b centering shift that turns a NM+ looking Mantle into an EX-MT card. The bargain especially at LCS’s that can sometimes be had on cards like this can be fantastic.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[homerunhitter]

Great points!

[homerunhitter]

Weekend bump!

[homerunhitter]

Any other thoughts on this?

[cubman1941]

[QUOTE=JollyElm;2251304]It's sort of the way cell phones became prominent. In the beginning, very few people had them and others couldn't care less, but then a sea change occurred and everyone on the planet now possesses one, and then gets a better one, and then upgrades that one and on and on. Graded cards used to be a fluke, and many thought it was a passing phase...but look at where we are now. That aspect of card collecting will continue to grow ..."


I used part of this quote because I tell people I am the only person on the planet who does not have a cell phone but back to OP -

I agree that Graded Cards are here to stay but I think it is a matter of whether or not one is collecting cards as a hobby, as an investment or a little of both. In my case it is a little of both. I am primarily a Cub collector and to that realm I view it as a hobby. I sent some of my vintage Cub cards in (thanks again to Bobby) for grading but I did this primarily to try and ensure the cards were legit. I will buy a graded card if I need it for my Cub collection and the price seems reasonable. I have a lot of non-Cub cards and, again thanks to Bobby, I sent some in to be graded. This is my investment side. I will probably never sell these cards but might trade them for Cub needs in the future but got them graded so when I am gone, my grandkids, when they sell them, will know (hopefully) they are good. I still love to open packs but haven't bought any since about 2004. My kids and grandkids buy me some packs to open every Christmas and I try to trade them. I have found the past few years trading these cards is almost impossible because people only want a PSA X or one of the stars of today that is PSA X. So my view point is that, in today's world, investment is the key and basic collecting just to collect is gone. I was in antiques for many years and got out because of this. People are no longer collecting, or, if they are, it is for a specific item. They are looking for investment possibilities. This is not a bad thing just the way the world has changed.

Graded cards are not perfect as seen in the past with trimmed, counterfeit and cards being graded with gracious grades that they do not deserve. I will stick with the raw cards. My 2 cents

[mortimer brewster]

Originally Posted by jingram058

This forum is all about graded cards and investment. I get that. I still like and respect these guys for their wealth of knowledge and the gorgeous, rare as Hell cards they post, nevertheless there are many, many people out there who have, sell and collect raw cards. I know a few who live near me. So I am by no means the only one. My 2 cents, take it or leave it...

I agree with this. I've been to 12 of the last 13 Nationals and it warms my heart to see collectors of all ages thumbing through binders of cards clutching their checklists.

To me, there is nothing like the aromatic smell of old cardboard. It is almost orgasmi.. nevermind.

I only own a few graded cards. Most I popped out of their cases. This grading thing is just not for me but to each his/her own.

One thing I am curious about though.What exactly qualifies an individual to be a professional card grader anyway? Do they go to card grading school?

[cesarcap]

There is a peace of mind when paying $$ for something slabbed though I know the major players have had issues w fake cards. But I'm a binder guy so thumbing through one is fun and quick versus hauling out boxes of slabbed cards which I look at honestly 2-3x a year since they are stored away in shelves and not properly displayed.... But I often end up with 2 cards: one slabbed and one for the binder which gets expensive for the PC.

[Seven]

As I shuffle around things, especially with the very few modern cards that I own, I decided to send them out for grading. But I only sent the few cards in, because I plan on selling the modern and putting that money towards Vintage. Whether it be raw Vintage or Graded Vintage.

I do try to purchase Raw when I can. Typically only from people that I trust.

[Exhibitman]

Freakish Spontaneous Wealth. That's the name of the game with grading. Simple as that. Pick a raw card, send it in, get a high grade, turn it out for a huge % profit. Repeat. Which is also why it will never go away; greed is a great motivator.

There is nothing appealing about slabs to me as a collector.

--The slabs are heavy
--You can't put a set into an album and leaf through it
--It is incredibly expensive to have cards slabbed
--They take up a ton of space
--They get scratched up unless you protect them. So now you have a card in a case. a case in a sleeve, and often a case in an iPhone-style case protector. And then you put all those bundles into a Zion case.

As a seller I play the game; market dictates it. Buyers pay a definite premium for slabbed cards even when raw ones are readily available, and won't trust an expensive raw card. Which is why all my good stuff goes into slabs if I want to sell.

[skelly423]

I like grading for two primary reasons.

1. It does a great job of protecting high value cards.

2. When I’m buying online and can’t see the cards in hand, it lets me know the card is genuine, and gives me a rough idea of what defects I may expect to find.

With few exceptions captured in my first point, when the graded card arrives, the first thing I do is crack it out of the slab for a spot in my binder.

[Snowman]

There is very little value/point in grading anything from that era that isn't worth at least a few hundred dollars or more. The only exception is with set collector high-grade commons. Some of those cards in mint condition might sell for $20 raw but $150 graded. Otherwise, it's just not worth grading IMO. But cards like a George Brett RC or an Ozzie Smith RC in EX condition is going to sell for about the same amount slabbed vs raw (less the grading fees).

[homerunhitter]

Any new thoughts?

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by homerunhitter

Any new thoughts?

Same $hit different day so no, no new thoughts.

Please update us with your thoughts on the subject.

[Zach Wheat]

Originally Posted by homerunhitter

Any other thoughts on this?

Family members would likely have an easier time converting your collection into cash should something happen to you.

[homerunhitter]

Originally Posted by Zach Wheat

Family members would likely have an easier time converting your collection into cash should something happen to you.

You mean if the cards were graded vs raw?

[jchcollins]

I'm having a hard time understanding why this thread gets continually bumped. The subject has literally been beat to death at this point. Those still interested might want to spend more time searching the dozens of archived threads on both this site and Blowout which address grading exhaustively.

[homerunhitter]

Got it! I’ll have to checkout the blowout cards forum. Thanks for the suggestion.

[RCMcKenzie]

To me, it's fine to bump old threads, and ask questions. The post war section needs more posts and topics and chatter. It's about to be passed up by the boxing card section for activity.

I have graded and raw. Raw are cheaper to buy and graded bring more when you sell.

If you study the sets you are buying, you can buy both, otherwise if you are a casual collector, buy graded.

As for heirs, make a will and direct them to a list of auction houses and they will do the work. Slabs are like cell phones, where they are obsolete every 5 years. GL

[G1911]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

It's about to be passed up by the boxing card section for activity.

My bad

[RCMcKenzie]

Originally Posted by G1911

My bad

I have two high numbers from 1952 that are supposed to arrive Saturday. I will post them in the pick up thread here. It will be my 3rd or 4th time posting in a row on there, sort of like you in the boxing pick-ups thread. Seriously though, I have an SFHess boxing or 2 and need to find and scan them over there.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

I have two high numbers from 1952 that are supposed to arrive Saturday. I will post them in the pick up thread here. It will be my 3rd or 4th time posting in a row on there, sort of like you in the boxing pick-ups thread. Seriously though, I have an SFHess boxing or 2 and need to find and scan them over there.

Careful, I try not to hijack other boards into boxing cards but I can only resist so much. Share those Hesses!

My notes show my last post-war baseball pickup was 3 months ago, which must be a record. I'm a bum.

[JollyElm]

858. “You Shoulda Put a Number On It”
The dismayed reaction to someone hyping an ungraded card they’re trying to sell, which makes you wonder, “If it’s so great, why didn’t you have it graded...like every single other card you sell??”


The 'problem' with buying ungraded these days is it seems that a huge number of sellers are now sending in everything to be graded (and reap the rewards from it), so when you run across something NOT in a plastic tomb (especially if it's a more valuable card), you need to be careful and wonder, "What am I not seeing here??"

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

To me, it's fine to bump old threads, and ask questions. The post war section needs more posts and topics and chatter. It's about to be passed up by the boxing card section for activity.

Nothing about the TPG's has changed radically since 2022. Yes, super high grades (especially on vintage) can exponentially change the value proposition of a card. Mid- and low grades on semistars or commons might not move the needle at all over raw. Grading rose to prominence in the early 2000's and barring some huge unforeseen event, is here to stay. Each of the major grading companies has their pluses and minuses, and there is not one left that has not been through some kind of noteworthy scandal at this point. All that said, whether or not to grade is largely a personal choice at this point. There are many vintage collectors who hate the idea of grading and always will, others have accepted that especially when selling plays a factor - it probably makes sense.

These are the basic facts, and they are more or less undisputed.

[RCMcKenzie]

John, I used to say 'grading is for Topps cards', but now that I'm collecting Topps cards again, I want raw cards for a binder. I think grading is for selling on the internet. I dunno.

[ALR-bishop]

https://video.search.yahoo.com/video...105G91708&tt=b

[Exhibitman]

A Card Slabber's Nightmare

To grade, or not to grade, that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of inconsistent grades, or to take arms against a sea of slabheads.
And by opposing grading? To sell cheap no more, and by refusing to play we end the heart-ache and the thousand natural shocks that grading poppage cause us.
Devoutly to be wished: to sell raw but not too cheap.
To grade, perchance to dream, ay, there's the rub; for in that submission lot what tens may come?
When we have shuffled off this mortal coil must give us pause; there's the disrespect that makes calamity of leaving raw cards.
For who would bear the whips and scorns of dealers, the oppressor's wrong, the proud man's contumely, the pangs of selling off Dad's raw cards, the long delays, the insolence of lowball offers and the spurns that patient merit of the unworthy takes, when a collector himself might their quietus make by leaving his heirs a box of slabs instead?
But that dread of what the graders do, the packs we bust from whose bourn an altered card somehow returns, it puzzles the will and makes us rather bear those ills we have than pay some schmuck to grade our stuff.
Thus conscience does make raw card men of us all.
I shall now withdraw, and touch myself anon.

--If the Bard collected cards, with apologies to Robin Williams...

[homerunhitter]

It was interesting that while I was looking at graded cards on eBay yesterday, that I noticed myself passing on “older” PSA slabs that didn’t have the psa hologram on them. Which validates what many of you are saying. Why buy graded now because in 20+ years no one is going to want “todays” psa slabs.

I’m leaning toward slabs only make sense if your going to flip/sell NOW because as mentioned 2023 psa slabs will look ancient decades from now and the newer cool psa slabs will be most in demand.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by homerunhitter

It was interesting that while I was looking at graded cards on eBay yesterday, that I noticed myself passing on “older” PSA slabs that didn’t have the psa hologram on them. Which validates what many of you are saying. Why buy graded now because in 20+ years no one is going to want “todays” psa slabs.

I’m leaning toward slabs only make sense if your going to flip/sell NOW because as mentioned 2023 psa slabs will look ancient decades from now and the newer cool psa slabs will be most in demand.

I completely agree with the part I made bold. Unless I am selling something it isn't getting graded.

It is a great marketing tool the grading companies use for the new is always better crowd most of us are in.

As mainly a collector this is what gave me the wake up call. For 30 years I never got anything graded and though it was silly. Then I ended up with a super high grade raw vintage set. I got the whole set graded and 100s of other vintage cards shortly after a flip change. Figured awesome they are in the latest greatest flip. Ended up buying mainly graded cards for a while. Then they changed the freakin flip again. When my first thought was to get the entire set into the new slab/flip I knew I had a problem. I sold 99.99% of all my graded cards and have never looked back and don't miss owning a single graded card I had.

[homerunhitter]

Thanks Ben for your thoughts on this, I appreciate it very much. This is the EXACT dilemma that I have in me going back and forth on whether to go full speed ahead in grading or go full speed ahead in raw cards. My concern is like you mentioned. Finally competing my collection of graded cards and then PSA changes to newer cooler slabs then with my OCD, I feel I would sell everything and start all over trying to get them all in the newer slabs. So now raw cards might be the direction I go.

[Zach Wheat]

Originally Posted by homerunhitter

You mean if the cards were graded vs raw?

Yes, correct. Grading not only identifies the items, possible variations or rare backs as well as provides a proxy for helping someone else determine approximate value

[homerunhitter]

I think another way to look at it is, and for example only, if you have two nolan ryan 1968 topps rookies cards that are in the exact same condition, one is slabbed and graded by psa and the other is raw, go to a card show and try to sell both of them, which one do you think will get you more one. raw or graded?...... exactly! i think most people only like raw cards when they are buying them in hopes of getting graded to turn around and flip for a profit.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by homerunhitter

I think another way to look at it is, and for example only, if you have two nolan ryan 1968 topps rookies cards that are in the exact same condition, one is slabbed and graded by psa and the other is raw, go to a card show and try to sell both of them, which one do you think will get you more one. raw or graded?...... exactly! i think most people only like raw cards when they are buying them in hopes of getting graded to turn around and flip for a profit.

I get what you are saying but the real question is how much did you pay for the raw Ryan and how much can you sell it for. Then how much did you pay for the graded Ryan compared to what you will sell it for. I would bet at a card show as long as you are a dealer and not trying to sell to one the profit margin percentage wise is pretty close.

I do agree the real money is getting raw cards into high grade PSA slabs.

[homerunhitter]

very fair points Ben. I agree with you my friend. I think every situation for everyone is difference as you pointed out how much one has invested in a card either raw or graded makes a huge difference. i guess thrown into the factor is, 20 years ago if you went to a card show raw was EVERYWHERE. nowadays if you go to a card show everyone seems to be walking around with a pelican box of slabs! also, every case has nothing but slabs, i dont think i even saw much raw cards at all. at the end of the day i believe it comes down to what each person feels comfortable with but if ebay completed sales, current card shows, card shops and various message board chatter is any indication, the hobby is trending toward graded cards as the future. i know... not what us old farts or traditional long time collects want to hear or are use too, but it is what it is, the young new collecting dollar generation is voting and they are voting for graded cards! it is evident everywhere!

[Exhibitman]

I guess it depends on where and in what you deal. What I have seen on whatnot is that most cards are sold raw, even the more expensive ones, but we are not talking 1933 Goudey Ruths. Also, eBay is a huge raw card market. I run collector grade baseball at $0.99 starting price auctions and some of them get very solid prices. There is always a market for collector grade cards for collectors who work with a budget, even in a recession. When I do shows, the boxes of modestly priced raw cards are what sell consistently. Last show I did was in August and I sold yards of them, literally. I had to go back to the office after first day and reload my sorting boxes because I got cleaned out the first day. You wanna see the perpetually busy tables at the National, look for the pickers' booths.