Interesting trivia about 1910 COUPON (T213-1) cards...show us some of these rare gems

[Jobu]

The supremely excellent T206 Resource shows that it would likely fall between Carolina Brights and blank backs:

http://t206resource.com/Back%20Rankings%20List.html

[tedzan]

Hey Bryan

My research leads me to disagree with the following "supremely excellent T206 resource" ranking list.....

1 Ty Cobb
2 Old Mill (Southern Leagues) - Brown
3 Lenox - Brown
4 Broad Leaf 460
5 Drum 350
6 Uzit
7 Hindu - Red
8 Lenox - Black
**Red Cross - Type 1
9 Broad Leaf 350
10 Blank Back
**Coupon - Type 1
11 Carolina Brights

The 1910 COUPON cards are tougher than T206 BROAD LEAF 350 and Blank backs.

I could go into a lengthy dissertation on this subject (but I'll spare you the "nitty -gritty"). And, simply state it just comes down to a matter of quantity.
There are approx. 190 - BROAD LEAF 350 subjects vs. only 68 - 1910 COUPON subjects (which were more short-printed vs the BROAD LEAF 350 guys).


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Jobu]

Hi Ted,

Thanks for your thoughts! I was referring to the overall value of that site more than to the scarcity rankings themselves - I figured there would be some differences there and I certainly haven't done any research on that topic.

One question I have for you - what are your thoughts on overall numbers vs numbers with a specific back? To use blank backs as an example, there may be more total blank backs out there because there are far more subjects with blank backs than there are with "Coupon" backs. But, I think there are more examples of each Coupon subject than there are examples of each blank back subject.

[Pat R]

I think it's probably close either way between the Broadleaf 350's
and the coupons. If you use the PSA pop reports the coupons are
a 1.5 average per subject and the Broadleaf 350's are 1.6 but you
see far fewer ungraded Broadleaf 350's than coupons. The blank
backs are hard to judge because there is no set checklist for them.

[The Nasty Nati]

I posted a thread about the rarity of T213-1 back in May.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=239838

Here's the summary:

I found in my research that the T213-1 T206 Resource ranking is pretty spot on, BUT some other backs, like the Broad Leaf 350, will surprise you in their rankings.

Based on analyzing the PSA pop reports (not an exact science, I know) I found that T213 Coupon's ranked 6.

Here are the PSA results:

1. Old Mill Brown- 1
2. Lenox Brown- 14
3. Ty Cobb- 16
4. Broad Leaf 460- 32
5. Red Cross Type 1- 34
6. Coupon Type 1- 96
7. American Beauty 460- 110
8. Uzit- 125
9. Drum 350- 130
10. American Beauty No Frame- 146
11. Piedmont 350-460 Factory 42- 150
12. Hindu Red- 160
13. Lenox Black- 196
14. Broad Leaf 350- 287
15. Carolina Brights- 436
16. Hindu Brown-1,066

BUT when I rearranged the scarcity list based off combined pop of PSA AND SGC you get this list:

1. Old Mill Brown- 1
2. Ty Cobb- 21
3. Lenox Brown- 28 (*SGC doesn’t note Brown Lenox in pop report so I doubled the number from the PSA pop)
4. Broad Leaf 460- 73
5. Red Cross – Type 1- 179
6. Drum 350- 218
7. American Beauty 460- 220 (*Can’t search for 1911 AB in SGC pop report so I doubled the number from the PSA pop)
8. Uzit- 242
9. Hindu Red- 277
10. Coupon Type 1- 284
11. American Beauty No Frame- 292 (*SGC doesn’t note No Frame in pop report so I doubled the number from the PSA pop)
12. Piedmont 350-460 Factory 42- 300 (*SGC doesn’t note Fact 42 in pop report so I doubled the number from the PSA pop)
13. Lenox Black- 412
14. Broad Leaf 350- 498
15. Carolina Brights- 700
16. Hindu Brown-2,149

Based off these combined PSA and SGC population T213-1 are now 10th or right around what T206 Resource has it listed.

Again this isn't completely accurate as we all know that there is a lot of cross grading and for the backs mentioned above I couldn't get an accurate pop number so I 'guesstimated' the numbers by doubling their PSA pop number.

Still, what I've learned is that a few backs were scarcer and some not as scarce as previously thought. The biggest surprises were T215-1, Lenox Black, and Broad Leaf 350.

Not As Scarce:
• Lenox Black could be 13th and not 8th.
• Broad Leaf 350 could be 14th and not 9th.
• Carolina Brights could be 15th and not 11th
• Uzit could be 8th and not 6th in rarity.
• Hindu Red could be 9th and not 7th in rarity

Scarcer:
• Red Cross Type 1 could be 5th and not 9th in rarity
• American Beauty 460 could be 7th and not 13th in rarity making it potentially rarer than Uzit, Hindu Red, Lenox Black, Broad Leaf 350, and Carolina Brights...admittedly it's hard to tell though because PSA only recently broke down the different AB designations. So this is a very rough estimate.

Spot On:
• Coupon Type 1 is in fact accurately around 10th in scarcity as T206 Resource has noted

T206 Resource ranking: http://t206resource.com/Back%20Rankings%20List.html

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by The Nasty Nati

I posted a thread about the rarity of T213-1 back in May.

Here's the summary:

I found in my research that the T213-1 T206 Resource ranking is pretty spot on.....

Based on analyzing the PSA pop reports (not an exact science, I know) I found that T213 Coupon's ranked 6.

• American Beauty 460 could be 7th and not 13th in rarity making it potentially rarer than Uzit, Hindu Red, Lenox Black, Broad Leaf 350, and Carolina Brights...admittedly it's hard to tell though because PSA only recently broke down the different AB designations. So this is a very rough estimate.

Hi B. Schneider

Regarding the 1910 COUPON cards......I differ with your analysis on the ranking of these cards. Why I disagree is this....using their Pop Report data can be misleading
because many of them have been "crossed-over" to obtain a higher grade. For example, here's my Chance.....a fine looking card which would under normal circumstances
be expected to get a higher grade than its 1.5 grade. I know this for a fact, since I have discussed this "cross-over effect" with others who collect the 1910 COUPON cards.

.

However, higher grades are seldom realized because of the thinner stock of cardboard that these cards were printed on. So, in any event the Pop #s are exaggerated.



Regarding the AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 cards......your analysis on these T206's is spot on. I've been collecting this sub-set for 12 years; and, I still need 3 cards.



__________________________________________________ _________________________________________
I'm still searching for these 3 cards to complete my AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 sub-set (74 subjects)

CAMNITZ (hands over head)....DOYLE (portrait)....McGRAW (portrait-cap)

Any help finding these cards is greatly appreciated....Thanks guys.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[The Nasty Nati]

I'm sure there is a "cross-over effect" but very little when it comes to T213-1 Coupons. I don't think that too many people are looking for a slight bump in grade because it's easy to look at any T213-1 and see that it deserved the low grade due to the flimsy nature of the card. And bumping a T213-1 up a grade isn't going to have the same bump in price as a more collected rare T206 back like say a Broad Leaf or Drum.

Still, t213-1 need more love. It's definitely a T206...and so are T215s.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by The Nasty Nati

Still, t213-1 need more love. It's definitely a T206...and so are T215s.

Frank has convinced me that if there were no Coupon type 2+3 or Red Cross type 2, Burdick would have listed them as T206s.

[TistaT202]

Here are my three T213-1 NYA cards...would love to get the 2 Chase NYA cards to complete my T213-1 NYA run....

Ted et al., love these threads!

Mike

[Troy Kirk]

Here are my only two T213-1 cards. Kind of funny, when I got them a long time ago I got them as a cheaper alternative to getting the T206 Southern Leaguers.

[DixieBaseball]

My memory is a little hazy, but I was at or around mid to upper 50's on this set at one time... About a decade long vigorous pursuit until I petered out. I still love these rare gems. I think I am sitting on 21 of these cards now. Here is one of my favorites in the set (with paper on the back where it was probably stuck to the Coupon box end as there are a majority of examples missing paper in the same place on the reverse or have paper attached to them like this one) ... also a RPPC of a New Orleans Store with boxes of Coupons in the background - Just Imagine how many cartons were in each box (Perhaps 1 Coupon Card per Carton):

[tedzan]

Great to hear from you, Jeremy.

And, thanks for posting your COUPON Cigarette cartons. I alluded to these cartons in my Post #11 in this thread.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[tedzan]

Here's my Matty Mac....it's the only one graded by PSA.

SGC shows only one graded by them.

Whether you consider these 1910 COUPON cards as part of the "T206 family" tobacco brands (or not), one thing is certain......
they are exceptionally rare.



.



TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[tedzan]

OK guys.....I am re-playing this thread for those of you who aren't members of the " The 1910 COUPON club " .

As you read the posts in this thread, you will see that a fair number of serious collectors in this forum agree that the 68 cards in the 1910 COUPON
set are actually a sub-set of the T206.
I will spare you the usual gobble-de-gook that goes with this debate, instead I will reprise and emphasize a significant factor that sets the timeline
of when this set of cards were printed and issued.

Circa 2007, Brian Weisner and I had an interesting conversation regarding the Major League subjects in this set. Brian pointed out that the majority
of them were NOT printed with POLAR BEAR backs (like the 138 other 350-only Series T206's. After researching this....sure enough 39 of the 48
subjects are POLAR BEAR No-Prints.
The Six Super-Prints and Willett were printed with POLAR BEAR. This is logical, since these seven subjects were extended into the 350/460 Series.
Engle and LaPorte (350-only subjects) are the other two printed with POLAR BEAR.

What does this signify to us. Well American Litho did not introduce the POLAR BEAR backs until the 350-only series press runs circa Summer 1910.
Therefore, the absence of POLAR BEAR backs on the majority of these Major Leaguers in the 1910 COUPON set tells us this series of cards preceded
the POLAR BEAR print runs.
So this is my argument for the 1910 COUPON timeline being being Spring/Summer 1910. It makes sense to me. Especially since the subsequent 250
subjects in the T206 set were all printed with POLAR BEAR backs.

Because, if those "nay-sayers" with their contention that this set was issued after 1912, then explain to us why the lettering in the captions of these
cards are NOT blue ?


My hypothetical 48-card sheet of the 1910 COUPON Major Leaguers (reflects an early 350)-only Series sheet)





Major Leaguers (48 subjects)

Becker......Boston NL
Bender (trees)......A's
Byrne......St Louis NL
Campbell......Cincinnati
Chance (portrait-yellow)......Chicago NL
Charles......St Louis NL
Chase (blue portrait)......New York AL
Chase (dark cap)......New York AL
Cobb (red portrait)......Detroit
Cree......New York AL
Donovan (throwing)......Detroit
Doolan (fielding)......Phillies
Dubuc......Cincinnati
Dunn......Brooklyn
Engle......New York AL
Evers (bat-yellow sky)......Chicago NL
Fletcher.....New York NL
Hartsel......A's
Hoffman......St Louis AL
Howell (portrait)......St Louis AL

Huggins (portrait).....Cincinnati
Huggins (hands at mouth)......Cincinnati
Hunter......Brooklyn
Killian (portrait)......Detroit
Knabe......Phillies
LaPorte......New York AL
Lennox......Brooklyn
Marquard (portrait)......New York NL
Mathewson (dark cap)......New York NL
Marshall......Brooklyn
McBride......Washington
McElveen......Brooklyn
McIntyre.......Detroit
Mitchell.......Cincinnati
Mowery......Cincinnati
Myers (bat)......New York NL
Myers (fielding)......New York NL
Paskert.......Cincinnati
Rhoades (hands at chest)......Cleveland
Rossman......Detroit

Schmidt (portrait)......Detroit
Starr......Boston NL
Street (portrait)......Washington
Summers......Detroit
Sweeney.......Boston NL
Thomas......A's
Willett......Detroit
Wilson......Pittsburg


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Pat R]

Now were jumping to another thread?

Originally Posted by tedzan

OK guys.....I am re-playing this thread for those of you who aren't members of the " The 1910 COUPON club " .

As you read the posts in this thread, you will see that a fair number of serious collectors in this forum agree that the 68 cards in the 1910 COUPON
set are actually a sub-set of the T206.
I will spare you the usual gobble-de-gook that goes with this debate, instead I will reprise and emphasize a significant factor that sets the timeline
of when this set of cards were printed and issued.

Circa 2007, Brian Weisner and I had an interesting conversation regarding the Major League subjects in this set. Brian pointed out that the majority
of them were NOT printed with POLAR BEAR backs (like the 138 other 350-only Series T206's. After researching this....sure enough 39 of the 48
subjects are POLAR BEAR No-Prints.
The Six Super-Prints and Willett were printed with POLAR BEAR. This is logical, since these seven subjects were extended into the 350/460 Series.
Engle and LaPorte (350-only subjects) are the other two printed with POLAR BEAR.

What does this signify to us. Well American Litho did not introduce the POLAR BEAR backs until the 350-only series press runs circa Summer 1910.
Therefore, the absence of POLAR BEAR backs on the majority of these Major Leaguers in the 1910 COUPON set tells us this series of cards preceded
the POLAR BEAR print runs.
So this is my argument for the 1910 COUPON timeline being being Spring/Summer 1910. It makes sense to me. Especially since the subsequent 250
subjects in the T206 set were all printed with POLAR BEAR backs.

Because, if those "nay-sayers" with their contention that this set was issued after 1912, then explain to us why the lettering in the captions of these
cards are NOT blue ?


My hypothetical 48-card sheet of the 1910 COUPON Major Leaguers (reflects an early 350)-only Series sheet)





Major Leaguers (48 subjects)

Becker......Boston NL
Bender (trees)......A's
Byrne......St Louis NL
Campbell......Cincinnati
Chance (portrait-yellow)......Chicago NL
Charles......St Louis NL
Chase (blue portrait)......New York AL
Chase (dark cap)......New York AL
Cobb (red portrait)......Detroit
Cree......New York AL
Donovan (throwing)......Detroit
Doolan (fielding)......Phillies
Dubuc......Cincinnati
Dunn......Brooklyn
Engle......New York AL
Evers (bat-yellow sky)......Chicago NL
Fletcher.....New York NL
Hartsel......A's
Hoffman......St Louis AL
Howell (portrait)......St Louis AL

Huggins (portrait).....Cincinnati
Huggins (hands at mouth)......Cincinnati
Hunter......Brooklyn
Killian (portrait)......Detroit
Knabe......Phillies
LaPorte......New York AL
Lennox......Brooklyn
Marquard (portrait)......New York NL
Mathewson (dark cap)......New York NL
Marshall......Brooklyn
McBride......Washington
McElveen......Brooklyn
McIntyre.......Detroit
Mitchell.......Cincinnati
Mowery......Cincinnati
Myers (bat)......New York NL
Myers (fielding)......New York NL
Paskert.......Cincinnati
Rhoades (hands at chest)......Cleveland
Rossman......Detroit

Schmidt (portrait)......Detroit
Starr......Boston NL
Street (portrait)......Washington
Summers......Detroit
Sweeney.......Boston NL
Thomas......A's
Willett......Detroit
Wilson......Pittsburg


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

I'm curious what the other "1910 Coupon club" members opinion is of the information in the journal.

The reason for the brown caption could be because the majority of the tobacco cards have a brown/black caption.

I'm still amazed that someone as interested in the tobacco sets as you hasn't looked at this journal and all the information in it.

Since you brought up the Polar Bears again and I had said in the past much like the Coupons they seem to stand out from the other t206 brands (Demmitt and O'Hara, scrap tobacco in pouch form, in my research they don't match up with the other brands as far as print flaws) here's some information in the journal.

Several t206 brands including Piedmont, Sovereign, Sweet Caporal, and Old Mill state in the packing & shipping instructions all states except Ohio.

Here's one of the Sweet Caporal pages that says 60 days for all states except Ohio.
img436.jpg

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Pat R

I'm curious what the other "1910 Coupon club" members opinion is of the information in the journal.

I have already talked with some of them, and every one of them said your journal proves nothing. Furthermore, the absence on it of a major T206 back like
POLAR BEAR discredits it completely as being any kind of reliable timeline gauge. Other than indicating it was generated prior to the POLAR BEAR print run.


The reason for the brown caption could be because the majority of the tobacco cards have a brown/black caption.


I'm still amazed that someone as interested in the tobacco sets as you hasn't looked at this journal and all the information in it.

How many times have I told you that I LOOKED it over ! ! And, it is useless information, as far as I am concerned.


Since you brought up the Polar Bears again and I had said in the past much like the Coupons they seem to stand out from the other t206 brands (Demmitt and O'Hara, scrap tobacco in pouch form, in my research they don't match up with the other brands as far as print flaws) here's some information in the journal.

Pat, you are smarter than this. This remark is totally incongruous regarding these two brands.



Several t206 brands including Piedmont, Sovereign, Sweet Caporal, and Old Mill state in the packing & shipping instructions all states except Ohio.

Here's one of the Sweet Caporal pages that says 60 days for all states except Ohio.

Pat

My research regarding the subjects on my simulated sheet of the 1910 COUPON cards indicates that these T206s were the first group of 350-only Series cards.
If so, this places them in the timeline of Spring 1910.

Several players in this group of 48, were in transition. For example......

Byrne traded from St. Louis NL to Pittsburgh.....Aug. 1909

Mowrey traded from Cinc. to St Louis Natl.....Aug. 1909

Rossman retired.....Sept. 1909

And, there are others that were in transition about this time.

For the most part, American Lithographic (ALC) was pretty darn good about reflecting team changes on the T206 cards. NO WAY would ALC depict Byrne & Mowrey
still with their old teams, nor Rossman (who had retired back in 1909) in your hypothetical 1913 - 1915 scenario.

In fact in the T215-1 set, Byrne's cards are captioned with St Louis and also with Pittsburgh.

Speaking about your "1913 - 1915 scenario", how come you didn't answer my question to you in my previous post regarding.....
Where is the BLUE INK CAPTIONS on the 1910 COUPON cards if (as you suggest) they were printed much later than 1910 ? ?


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Pat

My research regarding the subjects on my simulated sheet of the 1910 COUPON cards indicates that these T206s were the first group of 350-only Series cards.
If so, this places them in the timeline of Spring 1910.

Several players in this group of 48, were in transition. For example......

Byrne traded from St. Louis NL to Pittsburgh.....Aug. 1909

Mowrey traded from Cinc. to St Louis Natl.....Aug. 1909

Rossman retired.....Sept. 1909

And, there are others that were in transition about this time.

For the most part, American Lithographic (ALC) was pretty darn good about reflecting team changes on the T206 cards. NO WAY would ALC depict Byrne & Mowrey
still with their old teams, nor Rossman (who had retired back in 1909) in your hypothetical 1913 - 1915 scenario.

In fact in the T215-1 set, Byrne's cards are captioned with St Louis and also with Pittsburgh.

Speaking about your "1913 - 1915 scenario", how come you didn't answer my question to you in my previous post regarding.....
Where is the BLUE INK CAPTIONS on the 1910 COUPON cards if (as you suggest) they were printed much later than 1910 ? ?


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

First of I did give you one possibility for the brown caption even though I have no idea how that proves they were printed in 1910 and secondly
you're contradicting yourself with the Byrne caption. He's depicted on one of his type 3 coupons with St. Louis a team he hadn't played on since 1909.

[RCMcKenzie]

Here are Bobby Byrne's 3 Coupon cards. He has one in each series. Many of the 1919 Type 3 cards are tribute cards of players that had retired. In many cases like Bridwell, who managed Houston in 1919, there is no team designation given. My grandfathers grew up in Central Louisiana and East Texas, and both were Cardinals fans. Since these cards were distributed in an area with Cardinals fans, the producers decided to include a tribute card in 1919 for Byrne, who retired in 1917. Ames and Miller are also in the 1919 set as Cardinals and played for St. Louis in 1919.

[Pat R]

Rob, I used Byrne as an example because Ted pointed him out, there
are a lot of inaccurate team designations in the t206 set

[RCMcKenzie]

Hi, Pat, I'm not understanding. Wasn't Byrne on St. Louis circa 1910? I have only casually followed the debate. Am I wrong to characterize Ted's position as "they look like T206, therefore they are T206." I know Leon and others say, "Burdick said T213, therefore they are T213." Do you think T213-1 Coupons are a type of Broder, an unlicensed knock-off of a T206, released at a later time, say 1912? Here's a Bridwell from 1919...

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

Hi, Pat, I'm not understanding. Wasn't Byrne on St. Louis circa 1910? I have only casually followed the debate. Am I wrong to characterize Ted's position as "they look like T206, therefore they are T206." I know Leon and others say, "Burdick said T213, therefore they are T213." Do you think T213-1 Coupons are a type of Broder, an unlicensed knock-off of a T206, released at a later time, say 1912? Here's a Bridwell from 1919...

Rob, Ted's stance is the type 1's were printed in 1910 and I feel there is
sufficient evidence that they weren't printed during the t206 printings.

I don't think it matters in either opinion but Byrne was with Pittsburgh
in 1910 he was traded from St. Louis to Pittsburgh on August 19th 1909.

[jggames]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

Hi, Pat, I'm not understanding. Wasn't Byrne on St. Louis circa 1910? I have only casually followed the debate. Am I wrong to characterize Ted's position as "they look like T206, therefore they are T206." I know Leon and others say, "Burdick said T213, therefore they are T213." Do you think T213-1 Coupons are a type of Broder, an unlicensed knock-off of a T206, released at a later time, say 1912? Here's a Bridwell from 1919...

Might be a good guess actually. It’s pretty easy to find newspaper articles and advertisements from 1909 to 1912 that include most of the American Tobacco and Liggett & Myers brands - American Beauty, Drummond (Drum), Carolina Brights, Old Mill, Piedmont. It’s pretty hard to find anything before 1912 that mentions “Coupon” brand.

[RCMcKenzie]

Originally Posted by jggames

Might be a good guess actually. It’s pretty easy to find newspaper articles and advertisements from 1909 to 1912 that include most of the American Tobacco and Liggett & Myers brands - American Beauty, Drummond (Drum), Carolina Brights, Old Mill, Piedmont. It’s pretty hard to find anything before 1912 that mentions “Coupon” brand.

I wonder where T214 goes in the discussion. Liggett & Myers is on the backs of them with the factory 8 designation, like some T213-3.

Also, thanks for clarifying, Pat. I guess I need to check to see which backs Byrne was included in, and see when they were released.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by jggames

Might be a good guess actually. It’s pretty easy to find newspaper articles and advertisements from 1909 to 1912 that include most of the American Tobacco and Liggett & Myers brands - American Beauty, Drummond (Drum), Carolina Brights, Old Mill, Piedmont. It’s pretty hard to find anything before 1912 that mentions “Coupon” brand.

Jason

In 1909, the New Orleans Times-Picayune published an announcement that the American Tobacco Co. was introducing a new brand named COUPON to be produced in New Orleans.

Do some some research and you'll find the newspaper clippings of this fact.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Jason

In 1909, the New Orleans Times-Picayune published an announcement that the American Tobacco Co. was introducing a new brand named COUPON to be produced in New Orleans.

Do some some research and you'll find the newspaper clippings of this fact.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

It was 1908 Ted

Originally Posted by Abravefan11

The following article shows a relationship between Coupon cigarettes and The American Tobacco company before the spring of 1910 as well as the use of quotation marks surrounding the word Coupon.

August 6, 1908 Times Picayune New Orleans



The same contest was run again by ATC in August 1909 giving away either Coupon or Picayune cigarettes.

[jggames]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Jason

In 1909, the New Orleans Times-Picayune published an announcement that the American Tobacco Co. was introducing a new brand named COUPON to be produced in New Orleans.

Do some some research and you'll find the newspaper clippings of this fact.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

My only point was it was easy to find the others and difficult to find Coupon...and it may lead to a conclusion that Coupon was playing catch up later in the game.

[tedzan]

Thanks, that is one of the the newspaper clippings I was referring to. There is also another one which followed that one, published in 1909.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by jggames

My only point was it was easy to find the others and difficult to find Coupon...and it may lead to a conclusion that Coupon was playing catch up later in the game.

Jason

I'm not sure I understand your comment here.

The labelling on the 1910 COUPON cards with the QUOTES ...."COUPON" is because this was American Tobacco Company's new brand in 1910
when these cards were printed, and this brand was not yet an officially Registered TRADEMARK.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[RCMcKenzie]

One of the first topics I encountered in college was the Locke-Leibniz debate. I wrote a paper siding with Locke, as I thought he had a cleaner, simpler argument. Most of my classmates had chosen Leibniz.

I still think the best evidence are the back designs. To me, these three cards are from the same series, or 3 different series, but not 2 in one series, and 1 in another.

[jggames]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Jason

I'm not sure I understand your comment here.

The labelling on the 1910 COUPON cards with the QUOTES ...."COUPON" is because this was American Tobacco Company's new brand in 1910
when these cards were printed, and this brand was not yet an officially Registered TRADEMARK.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Hi Ted
My comment wasn’t referring to any trademark issues. When one looks up information about ATC’s breakup into ATC, Liggett & Meyers, and P. Lorillard in 1911 there are tons of articles about which brands go with which new company. All of the brands, including Polar Bear and Sweet Cap that I left off my original list are mentioned in various newspapers. I didn’t see any (not that it doesn’t exist) that mention Coupon. Just a point of reference. I actually do think Coupon Type-1 belongs with the T206s for the stylistic details you mention. When they were printed just seems to be harder to nail down.

[tedzan]

Can't we cease this nit-picking, meaning-less crap. And try to have a more meaningful exchange. Damn it, once again a "hi-jacked" thread by the usual suspects ! !


Continuing......my Mickey Doolan brings us to 26 different 1910 COUPON cards on display so far in this thread. This number represents 38 % of this set.

So, there are many more to show. So, let's see some more of these rare gems.


.


Note the hint of cardboard residue from the cigarette carton this card was pasted on.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by jggames

Hi Ted
My comment wasn’t referring to any trademark issues. When one looks up information about ATC’s breakup into ATC, Liggett & Meyers, and P. Lorillard in 1911 there are tons of articles about which brands go with which new company. All of the brands, including Polar Bear and Sweet Cap that I left off my original list are mentioned in various newspapers. I didn’t see any (not that it doesn’t exist) that mention Coupon. Just a point of reference. I actually do think Coupon Type-1 belongs with the T206s for the stylistic details you mention. When they were printed just seems to be harder to nail down.

Hi Jason

When the ATC Monopoly was broken up, here's how it went. Please note that the COUPON brand is included in this decision.
Now, tell me that COUPON was not already a marketed brand by 1910 ?

American Tobacco Co. Divesture (May 1911)....proceedings started circa 1910.

Liggett & Myers was given about 28 per cent of the cigarette market:

Piedmont
Fatima
American Beauty
Home Run
Imperiales
Coupon
King Bee
Fatima (the only 15 Turkish blend

P. Lorillard received 15 per cent of the nation's business:

Helmar
Egyptian Deities
Turkish Trophies
Murad
Mogul
and all straight Turkish brands

American Tobacco retained 37 per cent of the market:

Pall Mall
Sweet Caporal
Hassan
Mecca


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Can't we cease this nit-picking, meaning-less crap. And try to have a more meaningful exchange. Damn it, once again a "hi-jacked" thread by the usual suspects ! !


Continuing......my Mickey Doolan brings us to 26 different 1910 COUPON cards on display so far in this thread. This number represents 38 % of this set.

So, there are many more to show. So, let's see some more of these rare gems.


.


Note the hint of cardboard residue from the cigarette carton this card was pasted on.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Really Ted? you "hi-jacked" your own thread when you posted this.

Originally Posted by tedzan

OK guys....).I am re-playing this thread for those of you who aren't members of the : " The 1910 COUPON club " .

As you read the posts in this thread, you will see that a fair number of serious collectors in this forum agree that the 68 cards in the 1910 COUPON
set are actually a sub-set of the T206.
I will spare you the usual gobble-de-gook that goes with this debate, instead I will reprise and emphasize a significant factor that sets the timeline
of when this set of cards were printed and issued.

Circa 2007, Brian Weisner and I had an interesting conversation regarding the Major League subjects in this set. Brian pointed out that the majority
of them were NOT printed with POLAR BEAR backs (like the 138 other 350-only Series T206's. After researching this....sure enough 39 of the 48
subjects are POLAR BEAR No-Prints.
The Six Super-Prints and Willett were printed with POLAR BEAR. This is logical, since these seven subjects were extended into the 350/460 Series.
Engle and LaPorte (350-only subjects) are the other two printed with POLAR BEAR.

What does this signify to us. Well American Litho did not introduce the POLAR BEAR backs until the 350-only series press runs circa Summer 1910.
Therefore, the absence of POLAR BEAR backs on the majority of these Major Leaguers in the 1910 COUPON set tells us this series of cards preceded
the POLAR BEAR print runs.
So this is my argument for the 1910 COUPON timeline being being Spring/Summer 1910. It makes sense to me. Especially since the subsequent 250
subjects in the T206 set were all printed with POLAR BEAR backs.

Because, if those "nay-sayers" with their contention that this set was issued after 1912, then explain to us why the lettering in the captions of these
cards are NOT blue ?


My hypothetical 48-card sheet of the 1910 COUPON Major Leaguers (reflects an early 350)-only Series sheet)





Major Leaguers (48 subjects)

Becker......Boston NL
Bender (trees)......A's
Byrne......St Louis NL
Campbell......Cincinnati
Chance (portrait-yellow)......Chicago NL
Charles......St Louis NL
Chase (blue portrait)......New York AL
Chase (dark cap)......New York AL
Cobb (red portrait)......Detroit
Cree......New York AL
Donovan (throwing)......Detroit
Doolan (fielding)......Phillies
Dubuc......Cincinnati
Dunn......Brooklyn
Engle......New York AL
Evers (bat-yellow sky)......Chicago NL
Fletcher.....New York NL
Hartsel......A's
Hoffman......St Louis AL
Howell (portrait)......St Louis AL

Huggins (portrait).....Cincinnati
Huggins (hands at mouth)......Cincinnati
Hunter......Brooklyn
Killian (portrait)......Detroit
Knabe......Phillies
LaPorte......New York AL
Lennox......Brooklyn
Marquard (portrait)......New York NL
Mathewson (dark cap)......New York NL
Marshall......Brooklyn
McBride......Washington
McElveen......Brooklyn
McIntyre.......Detroit
Mitchell.......Cincinnati
Mowery......Cincinnati
Myers (bat)......New York NL
Myers (fielding)......New York NL
Paskert.......Cincinnati
Rhoades (hands at chest)......Cleveland
Rossman......Detroit

Schmidt (portrait)......Detroit
Starr......Boston NL
Street (portrait)......Washington
Summers......Detroit
Sweeney.......Boston NL
Thomas......A's
Willett......Detroit
Wilson......Pittsburg


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Interesting discussion, sorry if I missed this, but did Burdick just group all the Coupons together into one designation, or was it any more sophisticated than that?

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Interesting discussion, sorry if I missed this, but did Burdick just group all the Coupons together into one designation, or was it any more sophisticated than that?

Hi Peter

Jeff Burdick identified the timeline of the three T213 sets as a very narrow 1914 - 1915 issues.

His timeline is wrong at both ends. The 1910 COUPON (T213-1) was issued circa Spring/Summer 1910. And, the T213-3 card's captions confirm that some subjects
were printed as late as 1919. For example...... Chase was traded to the NY Giants on February 19, 1919





The most significant error by Burdick is overlooking that the lettering of the captions of the 1910 COUPON cards are NOT printed in BLUE ink.

After 1912, American Lithographic printed the captions of their T-card issues (T213-2. T213-3, T214, T215-2) with BLUE ink.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[brianp-beme]

This is the only one I can possibly post as one that I can claim as one that I own.

Brian (making the simple statement a thing of the past)

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by brianp-beme

This is the only one I can possibly post as one that I can claim as one that I own.

Brian (making the simple statement a thing of the past)

Hey Brian

Condition is immaterial, we take them anyway we can get them.

OK, you got us to the 40% mark of this 68-card set.

Thanks for posting.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Hi Peter

Jeff Burdick identified the timeline of the three T213 sets as a very narrow 1914 - 1915 issues.

Well, he was mistaken at both ends. The 1910 COUPON (T213-1) was issued circa Spring/Summer 1910. The T213-3 identifies players whose
captions indicate their teams as late as 1919.

The most significant error by Burdick is not realizing that the lettering of the captions of the 1910 COUPON cards are not printed in BLUE ink.

After 1912, American Litho printed the captions of their T-card issues (T213-2. T213-3, T214, T215-2) with BLUE ink.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Attack me if you want Ted but you keep posting this as fact when there is no proof of the 1910 date.

I have questioned where the 1910 date came from several times and you keep changing your answer. You originally said the 1909 newspaper clipping but it was pointed out that it didn't say anything about baseball pictures.

Jeremy then posted he had an ad about baseball pictures inserted in Coupon cigarettes but he posted later that he had mistaken it for an Old Mill or Hindu Ad.

Originally Posted by tedzan

Pat
1st.....Here is exactly what I said in the 1st post in this thread...…..



Pat....do notice that I stated...."Such a cigarette carton"

This particular carton which Jeremy posted in his thread some years ago contained COUPON cigarettes manufactured in 1913 - 1919. And, if cards were enclosed in this type of carton,
they would have been either T213-2 or T213-3.

This we know for sure, since the LIGGETT & MYERS TOBACCO CO. logo is printed on it.


The ATC divesture (circa June 1911) resulted in the following manner…………

LIGGETT & MYERS was given about 28 per cent of the cigarette market:

Coupon
Piedmont
Fatima
American Beauty
Home Run
Imperiales
King Bee
Fatima (the only 15 Turkish blend
and the cheap straight domestic brands.

P. LORILLARD received 15 per cent of the nation's business:

Helmar
Egyptian Deities
Turkish Trophies
Murad
Mogul
and all straight Turkish brands

AMERICAN TOBACCO CO. retained 37 per cent of the market:

Sweet Caporal
Hassan
Mecca
Pall Mall, its expensive all-Turkish brand, named for a fashionable London street in the 18th century where "pall-mall" (a precursor to croquet) was played.

R. J. REYNOLDS received no cigarette line but was awarded 20 per cent of the plug trade.



2nd....." and can you answer the question of where the 1910 date for the type 1 comes from."

Approx 10 years ago, Louisiana Newspaper clippings (1909 or 1910) were posted in a Net54 thread introducing the new ATC tobacco brand, COUPON.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Originally Posted by tedzan

It isn't different. The pack depicted on Jon's site is labelled LIGGETT & MYERS; therefore, it was issued 1913 (or later). If it had BB cards in it they would be T213-2 or T213-3, ONLY.
OR, it may have Movie stars in it from that era. For example...…

.





Your statement here tells us that you don't realize Jefferson Burdick incorrectly classified all three T213 sets as 1914-1915 issues. This timeline is a proven fallacy, on both ends of it.

"T213-1"......1910

T213-2...…….1914-1916

T213-3...…….1916-1919




The newspaper clipping was from the New Orleans Times Picayune. The date is circa late 1908, or early 1909. I cannot seem to find it (I read it at least 10 years ago).
You find it, you are good at searching for things.


Frankly, I am tired of playing this game. You do not want to accept my research, fine.....that's your prerogative. It appears to me that many guys responding in this thread
have more of an open mind.


TED Z
.

Originally Posted by DixieBaseball

LOL...

The 20 Southern Leaguer's are not included in the Type 2 or Type 3 Set. That is one glaring difference in the the Type 1's vs the Type 2 & 3's. Obviously the dates are different and the 20 Type 1 Southern Leaguer's are identical to the T206 players from 1909-11, yet not included in the 1914 & 1919 Coupon sets. If you take for example the 4 SL Nashville players (Bay,Bernhard,Ellam,Perdue) from the T206 set, they match spot on to the Type 1 Coupon set, but when you get into the Type 2 1914 Coupons, Nashville players change over to Al Bridwell & Gabby Street & same for Type 3 Coupons as they feature Al & Gabby. It's like this with other players from SL teams and that makes a distinction between the 20 SL featured in Coupon that were offered in the American Litho / ATC brands later named - T206.

Also, as for the New Orleans Times Picayune, there was a series of Coupon Advertisements in the 1909-10 papers depicting different Sportsmen scenarios, like hunting, horse racing, sporting events, etc. The pack is on the advertisement with T206 style cards showing and players names. One such advertisement (that I own), depicts 3 Southern Leaguer's coming out of the top of the pack. When I have time I will have to dig up the Newspaper as I don't have it scanned and its buried in a dry dark place. The Coupon Ad's were run for a handful of months around the 1909-10 time frame.

You keep coming up with different reasons for the 1910 dating of the Type1 but you ignore the Journal that has all every other t206 brand with the dates
they were packed and shipped but not Coupon.

[RCMcKenzie]

I missed this thread the first time around 3 years ago, and just went back and read the earlier posts. Here is Schmidt series 1 and 2. The type 1 is kind of rough, the type 2 was on my want-list for a long time before finding it at auction last year. Cool card with no D and Mobile...

[Pat R]

Maybe this will convince you how important the information in the journal is
Ted.

As I said before the Old Mill ad from 1909 was found for many years it was
said that the printing/distribution of the Southern Leaguers began sometime
in the spring/summer of 1910.

Here's the thread about that ad

https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...light=Old+Mill

If you look at one of the Old Mill pages in the journal it coincides with the
dates on all of the ads.
img454.jpg

The Old mill ad I found was in an August 1909 newspaper and the Journal
shows they started packing and shipping in July 1909
img454 - Copy.jpg

The Old mill ads that were previously known started in March 1910 and the journal shows they started packing on March 15 1910 and shipping on March 17 1910
img454 - Copy (2).jpg

In my thread I stated the last ad in the newspapers for the Old Mills was December 9 1910
and the journal shows they discontinued the Old Mills on December 14 1910.
img454 - Copy (3).jpg

Originally Posted by Pat R

It has long been thought that the southern league players were printed
with Hindu backs during the 150 series and that they were printed with Old Mill
backs in the early printing of the 350 series but that might not be the case.

The first known Hindu ad that showed pictures of but didn't mention southern
leaguers ran on August 13 1909.
Attachment 330858

The first known ad that mentioned the southern leaguers ran on August 23 1909.
Attachment 330859

I recently discovered this Old Mill ad that ran for a week in a Tampa
newspaper beginning on August 14 1909.
Attachment 330860

It seems that Eli Witt was quite an entrepreneur who had ties
with R.J. Reynolds.
Attachment 330861Attachment 330862

Originally Posted by Pat R

I feel like a jackass after my last post about the Old Mill ads. I visit
and use t206resource all the time and I've visited the advertisement
section several times but until last night I never noticed the galleries for the
Sporting Life, Hindu, Old Mill and Piedmont ads.

The Old mill gallery has 26 different ads.
http://t206resource.com/Old%20Mill%20Ad%20Gallery.html

Jim and Tim did a great job on the ads and I would like to
add some new information to theirs.

All 26 of the ads have a matching ad that was printed in Texas newspapers
with the exact picture but different wording and all the Texas paper ads
state that the packs contain Texas League baseball pictures

All the Texas Ads are on the right
Attachment 331067
Attachment 331068
Attachment 331069
Attachment 331070
Attachment 331071
Attachment 331072
Attachment 331074

The earliest Texas ad I found appeared in the Austin Statesman on Sept. 7 1910 the first non Texas ad appeared in a District of Columbia and Virginia
newspaper on March 1 1910. The last Texas ad appeared in the El Paso Herald on Dec 9 1910 and the last non Texas ad was in a Henderson NC paper on
Sept. 29 1910.

After the Dec. 9 I didn't find any Old Mill ads until this one
that appeared in the Galvelston daily news on Feb 14 1911
that made no mention of baseball pictures.
Attachment 331075

[RCMcKenzie]

Pat,

To Barry's comment earlier in the thread, and Peter's question, if type 2 and 3 Coupons did not exist, would Burdick have classified T213-1's as T206?

What were Old Mill and Sovereign cards called in 1910? Were they collected together to form a set? Were they called "White Borders"? Are Coupon cards made by a different group of people than the cards with Cycle backs?

Here are 3 different Diamond Stars cards with 3 different backs. Blue backs were released later than green backs, with the same front. The black back was re-released 40 years later by a different company. Are Coupon cards similar to the TCMA Diamond Stars card? I'm not looking at this as arguing, just trying to get a better understanding of the cards we collect.

(Also adding Bill Sweeney to the virtual set...)

[asphaltman]

My one and only at this point -

[Peter_Spaeth]

Question for Pat, and not intended at all as confrontational. If indeed Coupon's first offering was post T206, why would they have used a T206 typeface for their first issue and then changed it for their second issue? Apologies if that was already discussed.

To me, and believe me I know nothing about this, it seems more logical that while part of ATC in 1910 they would have used the same typeface as the other ATC issues, then changed for their second issue when they were part of a different company.

I am probably missing something obvious but just asking, thanks.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Question for Pat, and not intended at all as confrontational. If indeed Coupon's first offering was post T206/ATC, why would they have used a T206 typeface for their first issue and then changed it for their second issue? Apologies if that was already discussed.

To me, and believe me I know nothing about this, it seems more logical that while part of ATC in 1910 they would have used the same typeface as the other ATC issues, then changed for their second issue when they were part of a different company.

I am probably missing something obvious but just asking, thanks.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

Pat,

To Barry's comment earlier in the thread, and Peter's question, if type 2 and 3 Coupons did not exist, would Burdick have classified T213-1's as T206?

What were Old Mill and Sovereign cards called in 1910? Were they collected together to form a set? Were they called "White Borders"? Are Coupon cards made by a different group of people than the cards with Cycle backs?

Here are 3 different Diamond Stars cards with 3 different backs. Blue backs were released later than green backs, with the same front. The black back was re-released 40 years later by a different company. Are Coupon cards similar to the TCMA Diamond Stars card? I'm not looking at this as arguing, just trying to get a better understanding of the cards we collect.

(Also adding Bill Sweeney to the virtual set...)

I'm not sure I understand all of your questions Rob. Personally it doesn't matter to me if some people want to group them in with t206's but I do think the date they were printed is important.

In most of the newspapers they were all just called baseball pictures or cigarette pictures all the way back to the late 1800's with the Old Judges and other sets from that era.

I think because of the popularity of what we now call the t206's shortly before the t213-2's they decided to try the same thing with the Coupon type 1's and the cheapest/easiest way was to print them on the thinner stock using the t206 images. (I think this answers Peters question too)

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Pat R

I'm not sure I understand all of your questions Rob. Personally it doesn't matter to me if some people want to group them in with t206's but I do think the date they were printed is important.

In most of the newspapers they were all just called baseball pictures or cigarette pictures all the way back to the late 1800's with the Old Judges and other sets from that era.

I think because of the popularity of what we now call the t206's shortly before the t213-2's they decided to try the same thing with the Coupon type 1's and the cheapest/easiest way was to print them on the thinner stock using the t206 images. (I think this answers Peters question too)

Pat in part, but why then make the change for the Type 2s?

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Pat in part, but why then make the change for the Type 2s?

Just an opinion Peter but my thought is the "trial" was successful so the decided to print them on thicker stock and maybe put their own stamp on them by using the blue captions.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Just an opinion Peter but my thought is the "trial" was successful so the decided to print them on thicker stock and maybe put their own stamp on them by using the blue captions.

I guess my theory from a very high vantage point and obviously not having probed this as you have, would be that the change resulted from being under new ownership who decided to do things differently than ATC did, or maybe there was even a copyright issue and they had to make them look different. Thus, the first printing looked like the rest of the ATC cards because in fact Coupon was still an ATC brand at the time. But that may be contrary to specific evidence of date you've uncovered.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I guess my theory from a very high vantage point and obviously not having probed this as you have, would be that the change resulted from being under new ownership who decided to do things differently than ATC did, or maybe there was even a copyright issue and they had to make them look different. Thus, the first printing looked like the rest of the ATC cards because in fact Coupon was still an ATC brand at the time. But that may be contrary to specific evidence of date you've uncovered.

If that was the case I don't think they would have been able to use the same images.

The complete dissolution took longer than most people think. I think I posted a thread on it I'll see if I can find it.

ATC 5 complete Dissolution 11-18-1912.jpg

Here's the thread.
https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...obacco+company

[RCMcKenzie]

Sorry, I can say and write some convoluted things sometimes.

For what Burdick called "T206", is it fair to say David Hall is the only person who tried to put a "set" of T206 together? I collect the cards by the backs. I'm working on all 3 Coupon types, AB350 NF, Cycle460, and numerous player back runs. If I'm able to find all of the known cards with an AB350NF back, then I will have a set in my mind. Some may call it a subset of what Hall was collecting.

Series like the Type 3 Coupons say "Collect all 70" so we know it was meant to be complete, as it's own set, at 70 cards. We know of 70 known. Victory says "90" and some are yet to be discovered, if ever.

Were the makers of T206 Piedmont 150 cards wanting people to stay with the same brand and collect all 150?

My point is that T206 is an arbitrary term to begin with. It was applied to the cards decades after they were created.

On the blue type face, where does that leave T214 and T215-2, which are blue?