Hey, pennant guys

[ooo-ribay]

Bocca alerted me of these patches on ebay. They have the same Giant shown on the late 50's NY and early 60's SF Giants pennants. Do you guys think the patches and pennants would have been made by the same maker? The patches are 4.25"; the pennant shown is 20." As I remember, the batter in the middle and ball at end is typical of some maker but I forget who...

[perezfan]

That Giants Pennant is circa 1951. The Patches are probably 7-8 years more recent.

Like so many of these logos, it looks like the Giant Mascot lost some of his fine detail through the years. Cool stuff!

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by perezfan

That Giants Pennant is circa 1951. The Patches are probably 7-8 years more recent. Cool stuff!

The company is WGN, which can be deduced from Kyle’s great research. And Mark is spot on with the date, due to the Cubs pennant from this very limited series. A couple of notes which I believe I touched on a long while ago. First, the logos from this series can be found on the back cover of “Inside Baseball for Little Leaguers”, with copyright 1956. Interesting to see all the pennant logos except a couple ... notably the Reds mad bomber was replaced by the mustached guy that Keezer used.

Secondly, as a side note, for four years I owned and managed a team in a summer collegiate league, with nickname Giants. So where did I get the idea for my logo?

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by thetahat

The company is WGN, which can be deduced from Kyle’s great research. And Mark is spot on with the date, due to the Cubs pennant from this very limited series. A couple of notes which I believe I touched on a long while ago. First, the logos from this series can be found on the back cover of “Inside Baseball for Little Leaguers”, with copyright 1956. Interesting to see all the pennant logos except a couple ... notably the Reds mad bomber was replaced by the mustached guy that Keezer used.

Secondly, as a side note, for four years I owned and managed a team in a summer collegiate league, with nickname Giants. So where did I get the idea for my logo?

Love that...

We've seen the "olde time" mustached Reds guy on a pennant, but has anyone seen that particular Phillies mascot? I have not, and gotta believe it simply doesn't exist. WGN used the Blue Jay for the 1951 pennant, but by 1956 that logo was history. Would love to see that Batting Quaker version surface!

[thetahat]

Nope I’ve never seen it either.

[Domer05]

Originally Posted by thetahat

...as a side note, for four years I owned and managed a team in a summer collegiate league, with nickname Giants. So where did I get the idea for my logo?

Did you trade mark your adaptation of this maker's logo, too?

If so ... that's smart because I'll bet you that manufacturer, if it was WGN, did not do so.

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by Domer05

Did you trade mark your adaptation of this maker's logo, too?

If so ... that's smart because I'll bet you that manufacturer, if it was WGN, did not do so.

Yep, sure did.

[Domer05]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

Bocca alerted me of these patches on ebay. They have the same Giant shown on the late 50's NY and early 60's SF Giants pennants. Do you guys think the patches and pennants would have been made by the same maker? The patches are 4.25"; the pennant shown is 20." As I remember, the batter in the middle and ball at end is typical of some maker but I forget who...

So, apparently, this company offered several variations within this player-in-the-name series: a full length version with a player positioned in the midst of the city's name; and a shorter version--with no such player, due to the shorter length of the pennant.

I've also seen a Brooklyn version that measured 10" in length, also with no player. It was otherwise identical to the full length version of the same Brooklyn pennant from this series.

So, perhaps there were three versions? A 30", a 20", and a 10"?

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by Domer05

So, apparently, this company offered several variations within this player-in-the-name series: a full length version with a player positioned in the midst of the city's name; and a shorter version--with no such player, due to the shorter length of the pennant.

I've also seen a Brooklyn version that measured 10" in length, also with no player. It was otherwise identical to the full length version of the same Brooklyn pennant from this series.

So, perhaps there were three versions? A 30", a 20", and a 10"?

Could be. I’ll keep an eye out for a 10” Giants version. I doubt I would buy one but I’d report back with my findings.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by UKCardGuy

Thanks guys.

Well, what I lack in patience - I make up for in foolishness.

I found the posts earlier in this thread about cleaning pennants and decided to give it a go because the Tigers pennant is fairly cheap and I wanted to practice. I'm pretty pleased with the result.

What may not have been obvious from the "before" photo was some pretty bad discoloration above the tiger and at the tip.

I covered the spine and laid the pennant flat in the bath and then sprayed the bleach. Then I ran it under the faucet to rinse it off. I think next time, I'll tape it on the shower wall like Rob suggests. The black ink ran a little bit, but as others mentioned I used copious amounts of water and that rinsed off with no problem.

I think I've now achieved blissful over-confidence so I'll probably gamble with the Yankees pennant. The photo on the pennant looks to be fastened with staples so I don't think it will be too tough to get if off for cleaning.

Here's a nice compliment to Gary's Tigers Pennant. I didn't want to out the auction while it was live (and mess up someone's chances of winning), but this is one you rarely see.... a near perfect match!

https://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-194...p2047675.l2557

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Here's a nice compliment to Gary's Tigers Pennant. I didn't want to out the auction while it was live (and mess up someone's chances of winning), but this is one you rarely see.... a near perfect match!

https://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-194...p2047675.l2557

That is a cool one!

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Here's a nice compliment to Gary's Tigers Pennant. I didn't want to out the auction while it was live (and mess up someone's chances of winning), but this is one you rarely see.... a near perfect match!

https://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-194...p2047675.l2557

I offered the seller $100 for it. It's quite a bit dirtier than it appears in that pic but super rare. He didn't reply and it ended up selling for $43 (not to me). Oh well...

[UKCardGuy]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

I offered the seller $100 for it. It's quite a bit dirtier than it appears in that pic but super rare. He didn't reply and it ended up selling for $43 (not to me). Oh well...

That's a nice one. I'm guessing it could be cleaned up to look much better.

[ooo-ribay]

Would it be safe to say that artwork on pennants pretty much disappeared in the mid-60s? By "artwork," I mean stadiums, players, etc. and not logos or stand alone helmets.

Here's an evolution of Giants pennants. !962 NL Champs with the cartoon font; 1960's pennant with same font, showing an un-enclosed Candlestick; early 70's pennant showing Candlestick enclosed; stiff, synthetic pennant with leftover graphics and, finally, a 1970's logo only pennant.

I really can't think of any Giants pennants past the mid-60's with any new graphics. They are all just logos and print. Is it the same with other teams?

[perezfan]

Most teams had fresh logos and artistry through 1968 or so. Then in 1969, it became regulated, boring and corporate. By 1970, all artistry and creativity were gone.

There are some rare exceptions, such as that series with the Rangers (Batting Cowboy), Mariners (Mermaid), Brewers (Barrel Guy) and Padres (Friar Head). I suppose that group would be the “last hurrah” for originality.

Really sad... I wonder what became of the artists, and hope they landed on their feet (AdFlag guy not withstanding).

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Most teams had fresh logos and artistry through 1968 or so. Then in 1969, it became regulated, boring and corporate. By 1970, all artistry and creativity were gone.

There are some rare exceptions, such as that series with the Rangers (Batting Cowboy), Mariners (Mermaid), Brewers (Barrel Guy) and Padres (Friar Head). I suppose that group would be the “last hurrah” for originality.

Really sad... I wonder what became of the artists, and hope they landed on their feet (AdFlag guy not withstanding).

Even “Barrel Guy” was kind of a team logo, no?

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

Would it be safe to say that artwork on pennants pretty much disappeared in the mid-60s? By "artwork," I mean stadiums, players, etc. and not logos or stand alone helmets.

Here's an evolution of Giants pennants. !962 NL Champs with the cartoon font; 1960's pennant with same font, showing an un-enclosed Candlestick; early 70's pennant showing Candlestick enclosed; stiff, synthetic pennant with leftover graphics and, finally, a 1970's logo only pennant.

I really can't think of any Giants pennants past the mid-60's with any new graphics. They are all just logos and print. Is it the same with other teams?

Isn’t there a 1970s Giants with a barrel chested Giant standing in Candlestick?

[thetahat]

And to answer the question, it seemed to go out with the MLB trademarks. Although there are pennants which look like the 1969s but have no trademark, suggesting maybe 1966-68.

I still love the cloth ASCOs from 1969 but you all know that already ...

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by thetahat

Isn’t there a 1970s Giants with a barrel chested Giant standing in Candlestick?

This guy? Yeah, I guess you could consider this "artwork"....or not.

[Domer05]

The Dodgers offered up this stadium pennant, made by Trench, in the latter half of the 1960s; and it remained available for purchase through the team's souvenir catalogue into the early 1980s.

Although the coloring changed from four to two colors sometime in the 1970s, the design remain otherwise unchanged throughout its 15 year run. Surprisingly, it never featured an MLB mark like others by Trench or ASCO/WinCraft made during that era.

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by Domer05

The Dodgers offered up this stadium pennant, made by Trench, in the latter half of the 1960s; and it remained available for purchase through the team's souvenir catalogue into the early 1980s.

Although the coloring changed from four to two colors sometime in the 1970s, the design remain otherwise unchanged throughout its 15 year run. Surprisingly, it never featured an MLB mark like others by Trench or ASCO/WinCraft made during that era.

But did the material change over those 15-20 years?

FWIW - I just entered my 250th Giants pennant into the three pennant spreadsheets I maintain. Many are modern crap, but I've got 'em.

[ooo-ribay]

I pick these up when I can get them cheap. I'd say I've paid an average of $20 apiece. Made by "Winning Streak" for the last 25 years or so. No graphics but very well made of thick wool felt. The big ones are 40-42" long; the smaller ones are 32." They get 2nd tier storage .Does anyone else pick these up? Probably not.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

Even “Barrel Guy” was kind of a team logo, no?

I meant this series from the 70s....

[thetahat]

Saw this generic Dodgers pennant on eBay. Not too uncommon. This is the product of a company who has made many pennants, but has yet to be identified. What strikes me about this is the spine and tassels. Not felt and not cloth. Almost feels like canvas. Where have we seen this before? The company that made the 1958 LA/SF opening day pennant, the 1954-58 WS pennants (see ‘55 below), and the 1956, 1958 NFLC pennants. The pennants themselves are cloth. Furthermore, we have this series below that Baseball Rob posted awhile ago, observe the Phillies pennant. These all have the same type of spine. That being said, my guess is that this pic is from 1964-65 simply because of the Milwaukee Braves and Redlegs pennants hanging. 1968 seems a tick too modern. I know they changed the 3 to an 8 on the WS pennant. Do you have more background on this pic, Rob?

Anyway, this is a company with a distinct style. My guess is that it is from/near NYC. Ideas?

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Most teams had fresh logos and artistry through 1968 or so. Then in 1969, it became regulated, boring and corporate. By 1970, all artistry and creativity were gone.

There are some rare exceptions, such as that series with the Rangers (Batting Cowboy), Mariners (Mermaid), Brewers (Barrel Guy) and Padres (Friar Head). I suppose that group would be the “last hurrah” for originality.

Really sad... I wonder what became of the artists, and hope they landed on their feet (AdFlag guy not withstanding).

Oh, I thought you meant this "barrel guy." If I'm not mistaken they are using this logo these days. If it's not too much trouble, I'd love to see the Rangers, Padres, and Mariners pennants you're thinking of.

Greg, I do have backstory on that picture. Actually, my buddy does. I'll get with him and get back to you.

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by thetahat

Saw this generic Dodgers pennant on eBay. Not too uncommon. This is the product of a company who has made many pennants, but has yet to be identified. What strikes me about this is the spine and tassels. Not felt and not cloth. Almost feels like canvas. Where have we seen this before? The company that made the 1958 LA/SF opening day pennant, the 1954-58 WS pennants (see ‘55 below), and the 1956, 1958 NFLC pennants. The pennants themselves are cloth. Furthermore, we have this series below that Baseball Rob posted awhile ago, observe the Phillies pennant. These all have the same type of spine. That being said, my guess is that this pic is from 1964-65 simply because of the Milwaukee Braves and Redlegs pennants hanging. 1968 seems a tick too modern. I know they changed the 3 to an 8 on the WS pennant. Do you have more background on this pic, Rob?

Anyway, this is a company with a distinct style. My guess is that it is from/near NYC. Ideas?

The 1958 Opening Day pennants I have seen all have a "normal" spine...

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

The 1958 Opening Day pennants I have seen all have a "normal" spine...

No that’s exactly what mean. By “not normal” I simply mean it is noticeably different than felt or cloth. Hard to describe in words.

Mark has the WS pennants, maybe he can better explain.

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by thetahat

No that’s exactly what mean. By “not normal” I simply mean it is noticeably different than felt or cloth. Hard to describe in words.

Mark has the WS pennants, maybe he can better explain.

I'm confused. Those 1958's look like felt to me. My local buddy has the autographed one. I'll have him bring it over.

[thetahat]

Well maybe it’s a different type of felt. But there’s a noticeable difference between it and what Trench used. Also they exclusively used white spines and they turned a uniform brown with age.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by thetahat

Well maybe it’s a different type of felt. But there’s a noticeable difference between it and what Trench used. Also they exclusively used white spines and they turned a uniform brown with age.

Greg, I know what you mean about the strange material, but it's sure hard to describe in words. It's more of a visual/touch thing that differentiates these spines.

It's almost like a hybrid material with equal parts canvas, felt and cardboard. The white color typically would turn to tan or a dark cream color, and was prone to creasing/wrinkling.

Here's the spine to my 1955 WS pennant. Hopefully the photo picks up the composition of the spine material (which somehow stayed pretty white). I have a 1957 WS pennant on which the unusual spine material (and tassels) are much more prominent and darker toned. It's buried, but I'll try to dig it out.

[Domer05]

Originally Posted by thetahat

Saw this generic Dodgers pennant on eBay. Not too uncommon. This is the product of a company who has made many pennants, but has yet to be identified. What strikes me about this is the spine and tassels. Not felt and not cloth. Almost feels like canvas. Where have we seen this before? The company that made the 1958 LA/SF opening day pennant, the 1954-58 WS pennants (see ‘55 below), and the 1956, 1958 NFLC pennants. The pennants themselves are cloth. Furthermore, we have this series below that Baseball Rob posted awhile ago, observe the Phillies pennant. These all have the same type of spine. That being said, my guess is that this pic is from 1964-65 simply because of the Milwaukee Braves and Redlegs pennants hanging. 1968 seems a tick too modern. I know they changed the 3 to an 8 on the WS pennant. Do you have more background on this pic, Rob?

Anyway, this is a company with a distinct style. My guess is that it is from/near NYC. Ideas?

Yup. Trench

Trench definitely made the "BKLYN." pennant you first showed. Rick posted a photo from the Brooklyn Eagle of some kids waving it that dates it to ca. 1949. I believe it measures 26" in length; which, by the late 1940s, was Trench's preferred size. There's also a Brooklyn (football) Dodgers pennant featuring the same letter script, with a punter graphic known to be used by Trench during that same era.

The '55 Dodgers v. Yankees WS pennant is, I believe, also by Trench.

So you weren't far off on your New York guess, Greg; except these came from Buffalo rather than NYC.

I can't say I've ever noted any anomalies in the spines on either of these two pennants.

I'm afraid the '58 Dodgers v. Giants "1st Game" pennant's manufacturer remains unknown. I don't believe it's by Trench: it has no tassels. The speculation among Rob and I was that this was made by a local, bay area novelty maker that made a few other Giant-only pennants featuring the same San Francisco artwork.

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by Domer05

Yup. Trench

Trench definitely made the "BKLYN." pennant you first showed. Rick posted a photo from the Brooklyn Eagle of some kids waving it that dates it to ca. 1949. I believe it measures 26" in length; which, by the late 1940s, was Trench's preferred size. There's also a Brooklyn (football) Dodgers pennant featuring the same letter script, with a punter graphic known to be used by Trench during that same era.

The '55 Dodgers v. Yankees WS pennant is, I believe, also by Trench.

So you weren't far off on your New York guess, Greg; except these came from Buffalo rather than NYC.

I can't say I've ever noted any anomalies in the spines on either of these two pennants.

I'm afraid the '58 Dodgers v. Giants "1st Game" pennant's manufacturer remains unknown. I don't believe it's by Trench: it has no tassels. The speculation among Rob and I was that this was made by a local, bay area novelty maker that made a few other Giant-only pennants featuring the same San Francisco artwork.

Great insight Kyle. Also Mark’s picture is very good. I still think that the differences are too big to suggest Trench. Perhaps a generic graphic was copied. But the spine is so different, wider, much smaller stitch, and those that have tassels (not all of them do) often are made of the same cloth as the body of the pennant. If it’s Trench then these were made by workers who were banished to the annex and did not share ideas. And I think the artwork is very distinct ... the letters, etc. .. Now I did pull up pics of those pennants which I believe fit this series. One thing they have in common is a connection to NYC teams (including loosely, the relocated baseball clubs). .... I do see that a couple spines are different colored (not white).

[thetahat]

These are the Trench WS pennants ... my question is, would the same company make two radically different designs/styles for the same week-long series?

[thetahat]

Close-up of the Dodgers spine ... it’s a “two-ply” material! This is common for all of these.

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by thetahat

Furthermore, we have this series below that Baseball Rob posted awhile ago, observe the Phillies pennant. These all have the same type of spine. That being said, my guess is that this pic is from 1964-65 simply because of the Milwaukee Braves and Redlegs pennants hanging. 1968 seems a tick too modern. I know they changed the 3 to an 8 on the WS pennant. Do you have more background on this pic, Rob?

Here's the background my buddy gave me. He grew up in Fresno.

'These are photos from a baseball banquet in Fresno circa 1964-65 I believe. They came from Bill Thompson’s estate. Bill broadcast the SFG games between 1965-73 w/ Russ (Hodges) & Lon (Simmons), but before and after was affiliated with the Fresno Giants; before as an announcer and after as general manager. My guess is that, based on the people and background, it was either part of what was called “The Hot Stove League Dinner”, an annual offseason baseball banquet that really took off in the 1970’s (had Aaron, Garagiola and McCovey as guests of honor at it’s zenith), or it could have also been a farewell dinner for Bill between 1964-65 when he left his post as KFCN-TV Sports Director to work for the SF Giants; or even a combination. It’s just a guess, and a best guess at that.'

Not sure that clears anything up. Still can't explain why the Dodgers' 3 was changed to an 8.

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

Here's the background my buddy gave me. He grew up in Fresno.

'These are photos from a baseball banquet in Fresno circa 1964-65 I believe. They came from Bill Thompson’s estate. Bill broadcast the SFG games between 1965-73 w/ Russ (Hodges) & Lon (Simmons), but before and after was affiliated with the Fresno Giants; before as an announcer and after as general manager. My guess is that, based on the people and background, it was either part of what was called “The Hot Stove League Dinner”, an annual offseason baseball banquet that really took off in the 1970’s (had Aaron, Garagiola and McCovey as guests of honor at it’s zenith), or it could have also been a farewell dinner for Bill between 1964-65 when he left his post as KFCN-TV Sports Director to work for the SF Giants; or even a combination. It’s just a guess, and a best guess at that.'

Not sure that clears anything up. Still can't explain why the Dodgers' 3 was changed to an 8.

Rob that’s great stuff! Thank you. Makes a lot more sense now. In the far right the pennant that looks cut off appears to be the Colt 45s in this picture, which also fits the time period. Also in the pic is a 3/4 size Dodger 1955 pennant which *might* have come from the same company. It was made by the same company that made the Cinderella Boys Giants pennant, that’s for certain. There’s a “coarse” texture to the paint that is very unique.

[thetahat]

I’ll guess that this was the SFG pennant from that series (not in Rob’s pic). This and the black version. By this time they were using cloth/felt spines.

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by thetahat

Close-up of the Dodgers spine ... it’s a “two-ply” material! This is common for all of these.

You're right.

That said, you've got to organize all your "sub-species" into Google photo albums, because you're confusing the crap out of me!

[perezfan]

Greg is the official net54 "Pennant Savant".

Regarding that 1954 WS Pennant... Anybody want to sell or do a trade for that?

[thetahat]

And on that note, anyone grab a pennant on yesterday’s Hunt Auction? I underbid on the Phillies, just couldn’t justify going as high as it did.

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by thetahat

I’ll guess that this was the SFG pennant from that series (not in Rob’s pic). This and the black version. By this time they were using cloth/felt spines.

What the hell are we looking for here, Savant? What is "that series"? Oy, my head hurts.

edit: Oh, maybe you’re referring to the banquet picture?

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Greg is the official net54 "Pennant Savant".

Regarding that 1954 WS Pennant... Anybody want to sell or do a trade for that?

I’ll take that title! And yes that’s a sweet pennant.

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

What the hell are we looking for here, Savant? What is "that series"? Oy, my head hurts.

edit: Oh, maybe you’re referring to the banquet picture?

Yes that looks very very similar in style to the orange Colt 45s.

[thetahat]

Here’s a recent pickup. There must be a hundred Orioles pennants from 1966-70, and a lot of them have years printed on them after the fact. It’s somewhat unique to them. Anyway I thought it was cool how the dates of the Baltimore home games are listed, even though Game 5 on the 10th was not needed. Don’t know of another WS pennant like this ...

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by thetahat

Here’s a recent pickup. There must be a hundred Orioles pennants from 1966-70, and a lot of them have years printed on them after the fact. It’s somewhat unique to them. Anyway I thought it was cool how the dates of the Baltimore home games are listed, even though Game 5 on the 10th was not needed. Don’t know of another WS pennant like this ...

Very cool! In my searches for pins, I’ve noticed the Orioles also had hundreds of those in that time span.

Oh, how the mighty have fallen!

[bocca001]

A few recent acquisitions. Thanks to Mike E for making the white Giants pennant available to me.

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by bocca001

A few recent acquisitions. Thanks to Mike E for making the white Giants pennant available to me.

I see a bleach candidate......

[thetahat]

Nice ones, Marc. That’s another identifiable series, and a pretty cool one, too ... the one with the orbiting baseballs and cap.

[bocca001]

I haven't had great luck bleaching the stiffer white pennants. THe bleach doesn't seem to take as well.

Who do you guys think made the 49ers pennant?

[thetahat]

My guess is Ad Flag, based on artwork and crooked cut. One of their nice ones, though. And yeah I wouldn’t mess with the white Giants, besides it looks nice already!