Hey, pennant guys

[perezfan]

Yup.... That's it, Mike!

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by Domer05

I think I have the answer: it's the Trench-Sportservice partnership. By the 1940s, Trench was making some of the best pennants on the market. Their artwork was tops; as were their production methods. All they needed was a marketplace to sell their merch in.

The Tigers were one of the first teams to really give them that. That's because the Tigers were the first team to partner with Sportservice. Once Navin Field's ballpark concession stands were run by Sportservice in the 1930s, that opened the door for Trench's pennants. Trench seems to have capitalized on things by the early 1940s, making some really cutting edge pennants for their exclusive use.

If you look at 1940s Tigers pennants, I suspect many were made by Trench. Whereas other Trench pennants from this era utilized generic ballpark designs, their Tiger ones featured custom renderings of Briggs Stadium. Several different ones, in fact.

By the 1950s Trench was making stadium pennants for other teams; but, early on, not so much. The Tigers enjoyed early access to Trench pennants via Sportservice; and that connection seems to have generated some really special pennants for them and them alone.

I think that best explains why Tiger fans have it so good when it comes to terrific pennant designs.

Domer... this is AWESOME stuff! Thank you!

[ooo-ribay]

More than a half a MILLION views of this page!

I should have something to contribute, shortly...

[thetahat]

I think we are about ready for “Hey, Pennant Guys - The Movie”

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

Whoa, whoa, whoa! I'm the Giants guy!

True that...

But Rob... outside of silk-screening new Giants pennants myself, I don't think I could ever come up with anything you don't already have! (maybe a few New York Giants). Stay tuned...

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by thetahat

I think we are about ready for “Hey, Pennant Guys - The Movie”

I want to played by Clooney.

But the studio said they're thinking more along the lines of Kevin James.

[MK]

Originally Posted by perezfan

I want to played by Clooney.

But the studio said their thinking more along the lines of Kevin James.

I would vote for Clooney playing you in the movie Mark, provided you consider me if you’re selling any Cubs pennants. 😂

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by mk

i would vote for clooney playing you in the movie mark, provided you consider me if you’re selling any cubs pennants. 😂

deal! :d

[MK]

Speaking of Cubs pennants, here are a couple of scarce ones (at least I hadn’t seen them before) recently acquired.

[perezfan]

Very cool...

I have both, but regarding the red one on the right... mine has orange graphics against black felt. I think yours is rarer, Mike.... Two beauties!

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by perezfan

True that...

But Rob... outside of silk-screening new Giants pennants myself, I don't think I could ever come up with anything you don't already have! (maybe a few New York Giants). Stay tuned...

I'll bet you might....out of your 400!

[Duluth Eskimo]

Mike,
I assume you got those out of that collection that was sold on eBay. There were some really nice ones in that group. I remember those. I have only seen the black and orange one that Mark described.

[MK]

Originally Posted by Duluth Eskimo

Mike,
I assume you got those out of that collection that was sold on eBay. There were some really nice ones in that group. I remember those. I have only seen the black and orange one that Mark described.

The black one was from the collection that recently sold, but the red one was from another source. That collection did have a lot of really nice pieces.

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by MK

The black one was from the collection that recently sold, but the red one was from another source. That collection did have a lot of really nice pieces.

Was this the eBay auction that only had one picture of a pile of pennants, just showing the one on top, with no description of the rest? What else was in there?

[MK]

Originally Posted by thetahat

Was this the eBay auction that only had one picture of a pile of pennants, just showing the one on top, with no description of the rest? What else was in there?

No, it was sold individually.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by thetahat

Here’s a question. Why do the Tigers have the most attractive pennants ... far and away. Probably the most variations, too, and the most dated pennants that do not commemorate a championship. But I don’t know of any scroll pennants of theirs besides the funky 1940 and the ‘45.

Here’s that Raspberry colored Tigers Scroll I alluded to. Don’t have time to research the year, but it’s pretty unique. I don’t think I’ve seen another.

Was not looking to sell, but $350 shipped, if anyone wants it. The spine is clean (that’s just a shadow).

I’ll be listing a bunch of others on the BST later today, in all price ranges. Thanks!

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by MK

Speaking of Cubs pennants, here are a couple of scarce ones (at least I hadn’t seen them before) recently acquired.

Mike...
I found one that’s very similar to your red one, but the Bear and Font are both a bit different. It’s a very early pennant... late ‘20s to early ‘30s. The spine is black on black... very cool. Some typical crackling to the painted Orange graphics, but no holes, rips, tears or restoration. This one is a real antique.

Drop me a PM if interested. I’ll be listing it on the BST with a number of other vintage pennants. Thanks!

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Here’s that Raspberry colored Tigers Scroll I alluded to. Don’t have time to research the year, but it’s pretty unique. I don’t think I’ve seen another.

Was not looking to sell, but $350 shipped, if anyone wants it. The spine is clean (that’s just a shadow).

I’ll be listing a bunch of others on the BST later today, in all price ranges. Thanks!

Mark ... nice pennants in “wave one”. Let me know if any of your oversized beauties make it into “wave two” so I can go take out a second mortgage!

[Huck]

I acquired the first pennant for "the wheel" project. Many thanks to ooo-ribay, for forwarding good deals on ebay!

[Huck]

Originally Posted by Domer05

I think I have the answer: it's the Trench-Sportservice partnership. By the 1940s, Trench was making some of the best pennants on the market. Their artwork was tops; as were their production methods. All they needed was a marketplace to sell their merch in.

The Tigers were one of the first teams to really give them that. That's because the Tigers were the first team to partner with Sportservice. Once Navin Field's ballpark concession stands were run by Sportservice in the 1930s, that opened the door for Trench's pennants. Trench seems to have capitalized on things by the early 1940s, making some really cutting edge pennants for their exclusive use.

If you look at 1940s Tigers pennants, I suspect many were made by Trench. Whereas other Trench pennants from this era utilized generic ballpark designs, their Tiger ones featured custom renderings of Briggs Stadium. Several different ones, in fact.

By the 1950s Trench was making stadium pennants for other teams; but, early on, not so much. The Tigers enjoyed early access to Trench pennants via Sportservice; and that connection seems to have generated some really special pennants for them and them alone.

I think that best explains why Tiger fans have it so good when it comes to terrific pennant designs.

Interesting. As a newbie to this niche collectible, I was wondering why for the era in question (a) Tiger pennants seemed far cooler than the rest (2) there seems to be a ton of Tiger pennants.

[ooo-ribay]

A while back, Marc (bocca) posted a picture of a previously unseen SF Giants "Keezer" pennant. I'm not sure if Marc's pennant was marked, bit it is indeed a Keezer.

[bocca001]

Nice to see the stamp. The seller also had, if I recall correctly, a Rangers and Royals pennant from the same series. I figured they were equally rare. Maybe should have bought them but I try to stick with SF and Houston. And, of course, there is the Houston pennant from this same series (I think Greg has this one). I think I've seen it come up for auction once or twice, and it has sold for good money. The most recent one (not the one below) had some moth or silverfish damage and still sold for around $500. I'd love to get one of these.

[rlevy]

1969 keezer 75%.jpg
1969 keezer stamp 50%.jpg

Rick

[ooo-ribay]

Love these Keezers (even the D**gers)!

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by bocca001

Nice to see the stamp. The seller also had, if I recall correctly, a Rangers and Royals pennant from the same series. I figured they were equally rare. Maybe should have bought them but I try to stick with SF and Houston. And, of course, there is the Houston pennant from this same series (I think Greg has this one). I think I've seen it come up for auction once or twice, and it has sold for good money. The most recent one (not the one below) had some moth or silverfish damage and still sold for around $500. I'd love to get one of these.

Do you guys have the red cloth Astros Pennant with the white Astronaut? It's my favorite Astros pennant, and I believe their first-ever.

[bocca001]

I don't have that red one, but I think Greg does. His is the only one I've seen. Also Keezer?

And, Rick, I assume that your Dodgers pennant is also super tough to find?

[Fballguy]

I've only seen that Dodgers pennant on eBay once...and it was just a couple weeks ago. I believe this is that exact one. And if it is...it was a nice deal.

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by bocca001

I don't have that red one, but I think Greg does. His is the only one I've seen. Also Keezer?

And, Rick, I assume that your Dodgers pennant is also super tough to find?

Marc, yep, here you go along with my other Keezers. The Phillies is my favorite …

[perezfan]

Greg...

Attached is a pic of a pic you sent me, waaaaay back before the days of eBay. I think this was in 2000 or 2001, so nearly 20 years ago!

You highlighted the Astros Pennant as “one of the coolest you’d ever seen”. I picked up mine about 6 months before you sent me this photo (along with the rare Keezer Angels). It looks like your collection has grown just a bit since then!

Ps. Also pictured is that great Pirates Pennant with the Ship that you love! We sure had to work lots harder, and network through the mail before the days of eBay and Internet Auctions. And now that it’s much easier, the good stuff has pretty much dried up!

[rlevy]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

I've only seen that Dodgers pennant on eBay once...and it was just a couple weeks ago. I believe this is that exact one. And if it is...it was a nice deal.

Rob, yes, it was the one on ebay. Someone actually bought it with a $15 BIN within hours of its initial listing when it wasn't listed as a Keezer, then relisted it to flip it a few weeks later as a Keezer. I'm fairly new to pennant collecting (I have bought a few over the years, but don't really know much about them), so when I saw it relisted I asked Kyle for some info on Keeezer's, which was extremely helpful. And of course the info provided by all of you on this thread is terrific.

I can't really speak to the rarity, but I really like the simplicity of the graphics.

Rick

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Greg...

Attached is a pic of a pic you sent me, waaaaay back before the days of eBay. I think this was in 2000 or 2001, so nearly 20 years ago!

You highlighted the Astros Pennant as “one of the coolest you’d ever seen”. I picked up mine about 6 months before you sent me this photo (along with the rare Keezer Angels). It looks like your collection has grown just a bit since then!

Ps. Also pictured is that great Pirates Pennant with the Ship that you love! We sure had to work lots harder, and network through the mail before the days of eBay and Internet Auctions. And now that it’s much easier, the good stuff has pretty much dried up!

Mark! Whoa that’s fantastic! Yes this was before my collection went off-the-rails crazy. And there’s the Pirate ship pennant! Back then I used to go to the quarterly shows outside Philly and sell/trade, I unloaded it and quickly regretted it. Thanks for sending that pic ...

Back then there was no spelling correction on eBay and I used to check “pennent” and “penant” ... I hit the motherload one day on about 20 pennants that went dirt cheap! .... Now I’m still buying and putting them right into those big Tupperware containers ... I need help!

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by rlevy

I'm fairly new to pennant collecting (I have bought a few over the years, but don't really know much about them), so when I saw it relisted I asked Kyle for some info on Keeezer's, which was extremely helpful.

Kyle has not addressed Keezer in his blog, has he? If not, he needs to!

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by thetahat

Back then there was no spelling correction on eBay and I used to check “pennent” and “penant” ... I hit the motherload one day on about 20 pennants that went dirt cheap! ....

LOL...I still do this. Did it earlier today as a matter of fact. Don't forget "Pennat". There are about 50 listings on eBay with pennat right now.

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

LOL...I still do this. Did it earlier today as a matter of fact. Don't forget "Pennat". There are about 50 listings on eBay with pennat right now.

No wonder it's impossible to get anything by you guys!

[bocca001]

Well, it's good to know that at least two of the red Astros pennants exist. Hopefully there are at least three in the world.

Here is the Houston Colts version of the pennant (or somethng close to the same version).

I am looking forward to Kyle doing his thing for Keezer. It seems like these "round" ones must have been their very last, right when having a license from MLB became required.

And I see several pennants on Greg's early wall that I'd love to find. Cool to see that pic, and cool that Mark saved it.

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by bocca001

Well, it's good to know that at least two of the red Astros pennants exist. Hopefully there are at least three in the world.

Here is the Houston Colts version of the pennant (or somethng close to the same version).

I am looking forward to Kyle doing his thing for Keezer. It seems like these "round" ones must have been their very last, right when having a license from MLB became required.

And I see several pennants on Greg's early wall that I'd love to find. Cool to see that pic, and cool that Mark saved it.

Here is an updated, panoramic view ... not high on detail

[thetahat]

Close up of the “back wall” today, this is where all but one of the oversized pennants go

[rlevy]

Greg, that is truly an amazing display!

Rick

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by rlevy

Greg, that is truly an amazing display!

Rick

Thanks Rick ... it’s all I collect.

[perezfan]

Those are some jaw-droppers for sure!

Hey Greg... How about some close-ups of the Philadelphia Athletics and Washington Senators pennants (on the oversized wall, just to the left of the sofa? Both are uber-scarce!

Thanks!

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Those are some jaw-droppers for sure!

Hey Greg... How about some close-ups of the Philadelphia Athletics and Washington Senators pennants (on the oversized wall, just to the left of the sofa? Both are uber-scarce!

Thanks!

Sure thing. The athletics is full sewn-on, no paint, except for the artwork on the logo. Three sets of tassels including in the middle of the wide end. Also pictured are a few others that didn't come up in earlier pics. Two more A's pennants with no paint, all stitched. I read that silk screening was patented in 1907 but not widely practiced until 1911. I wonder if that helps date them …

[thetahat]

forgot this, sorry for part cut off …

[Fballguy]

WOW...Amazing stuff!! Those are beautiful.

Now excuse me...I'll just put myself in the corner with my pale little collection.

[bocca001]

I agree with Fballguy, Greg. Those are great.

I happen to have a question about series of pennants that (if I recall correctly) you collect. The pic below has two Giants pennants. I've had the one on the bottom (with the yellow felt spine) for a few years. It is somewhat larger that most pennants. It doesn't fit well into most toploaders (too thick at the tip and a bit too long... insert joke). I never really liked that the spine had taken on some black from the pennant and wondered if it was the original spine.

I picked up the one with the Orange spine this week, even with the tip damage. It is a rare pennant and I figured "what the heck... I like the orange spine better than the yellow." When it arrived, I noticed that it is smaller than my other copy and the spine has more sheen. It is, however, about the the same length as most modern pennants.

Both pennants have tip damage, which makes exact size somewhat of an estimate.

Upon receiving the second one, I wondered if it had been cut down in some way (beyond the tip). But the picture below has the pennants lined up using the image of the Giant. The yellow spine one clearly has more room between the image and the spine, suggesting that maybe it is just a bigger version.

I was wondering if the pennants in this series are known with different types of material on the spine and if they differ in size. I'd also be curious to see other versions of this same pennant (I know you have one Rob).

[perezfan]

It certainly wasn't an exact science back then. I think they just took whatever lots of felt were available at the time (or for the best price), and then went to town. The material was relatively cheap, and likely had some variances from shipment to shipment.

Regarding the size variance, there's a good chance that the image was simply printed a little further down on the pennant, in the case of the second one. That would explain the larger gap between the spine an the graphics. You may say that the first one is still larger... but the second one is clearly altered/trimmed, so we don't really know how big it was in its original state.

Tough to put these shadowy thoughts in writing, but hopefully you get the gist of it. Pennants of this era were not cut with precision, like cards or team-issued photos. Some of these pennants came from street vendors who probably never even got inside the stadium. So there were some definite potential variances. I have lots of unaltered duplicates from the 1940s - 50s that differ in size quite a bit (just like your Giants example).

Eager to hear others' thoughts as well!

[perezfan]

Greg...

Thanks for posting those... the Athletics Pennants are off the charts cool. In the very early days, I think even the Tigers took a back seat to the A's with their White Elephant Mascot. I bet that a couple of those pennants could be lone survivors. Great stuff!

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by perezfan

but the second one is clearly altered/trimmed, so we don't really know how big it was in its original state.

Just curious Mark...What leads you to believe it was trimmed? I thought the tip looked artificially sharp but being felt maybe it just wore down that way. Anything else?

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by bocca001

I agree with Fballguy, Greg. Those are great.

I happen to have a question about series of pennants that (if I recall correctly) you collect. The pic below has two Giants pennants. I've had the one on the bottom (with the yellow felt spine) for a few years. It is somewhat larger that most pennants. It doesn't fit well into most toploaders (too thick at the tip and a bit too long... insert joke). I never really liked that the spine had taken on some black from the pennant and wondered if it was the original spine.

I picked up the one with the Orange spine this week, even with the tip damage. It is a rare pennant and I figured "what the heck... I like the orange spine better than the yellow." When it arrived, I noticed that it is smaller than my other copy and the spine has more sheen. It is, however, about the the same length as most modern pennants.

Both pennants have tip damage, which makes exact size somewhat of an estimate.

Upon receiving the second one, I wondered if it had been cut down in some way (beyond the tip). But the picture below has the pennants lined up using the image of the Giant. The yellow spine one clearly has more room between the image and the spine, suggesting that maybe it is just a bigger version.

I was wondering if the pennants in this series are known with different types of material on the spine and if they differ in size. I'd also be curious to see other versions of this same pennant (I know you have one Rob).

Thanks guys …. yes this is my favorite series and yes, they seem to come in different sizes, almost as much as two inches. I have a Boston Braves with a true pointy tip that is smallish, and a Brooklyn Dodgers that is larger with a blunt tip (seemingly made that way). I'll get some pics for you. Those Giants pennants are awesome and very rare … the series seems to date to 1951-53 (due to the Cubs anniversary pennant and Dodgers NL Champs) but there's a Milwaukee Braves pennant that uses the same logo. So I guess some vendors continued some designs for a few years.

Speaking of these I saw a STL Cards pennant surface on eBay a few weeks ago in a small lot, and I debated getting it, but it was soiled pretty bad. I am still looking for both STL teams, one of our infrequent posters here would have me over a barrel if he ever wanted to sell his Browns.

Additionally, these pennants were made with tassels and a thicker spine - at least some teams were. I have Cubs and NY Giants.

I will say, since I initially got these pennants for display, because I like the artwork, I have never been a big stickler for the tip being perfect. I do know that many pennants were made with a slightly squared off tip, I have a Brooklyn Emmet Kelly pennant that is so big it barely fits in the holder and it looks like its missing another 1/2 inch with a squared tip. I agree with Mark, I think quality control was lacking with these things.

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by perezfan

It certainly wasn't an exact science back then. I think they just took whatever lots of felt were available at the time (or for the best price), and then went to town. The material was relatively cheap, and likely had some variances from shipment to shipment.

Regarding the size variance, there's a good chance that the image was simply printed a little further down on the pennant, in the case of the second one. That would explain the larger gap between the spine an the graphics. You may say that the first one is still larger... but the second one is clearly altered/trimmed, so we don't really know how big it was in its original state.

Tough to put these shadowy thoughts in writing, but hopefully you get the gist of it. Pennants of this era were not cut with precision, like cards or team-issued photos. Some of these pennants came from street vendors who probably never even got inside the stadium. So there were some definite potential variances. I have lots of unaltered duplicates from the 1940s - 50s that differ in size quite a bit (just like your Giants example).

Eager to hear others' thoughts as well!

I noticed this even with the Collegiate pennants which were probably the highest-end made back then. My Yankees pennant seems to have Uncle Sam very close to the spine, much more so than on the two or three others I've seen (including your new pickup). It looks like a difference of almost a whole inch or so. But then there is more room to spare by the tip. It's just imperfection in printing or cutting I guess, like on mine the whole design was moved to the left.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by thetahat

I noticed this even with the Collegiate pennants which were probably the highest-end made back then. My Yankees pennant seems to have Uncle Sam very close to the spine, much more so than on the two or three others I've seen (including your new pickup). It looks like a difference of almost a whole inch or so. But then there is more room to spare by the tip. It's just imperfection in printing or cutting I guess, like on mine the whole design was moved to the left.

Yeah.... the guy in charge of cutting and screening these was probably making about 35 cents per hour. Some are amazingly exact and consistent, but others have some definite variance.

Since these pennants cost under a buck back in the day, I don't think the attention to detail was always stellar. But that's part of why I love them so much. They're all just a bit different, and oozing with personality. Today's "stiff as a board" pennants are all precisely the same size, but that's not much fun, is it? And today's boring/generic/corporate logos cannot hold a candle to those of the past!