Outed cards, now including a 130K gain on an Aaron rookie

[HRBAKER]

Lots and lots of people don't care who or what they are dealing with as long as they stay on the long end of the trough.
Happy Thanksgiving.

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by bnorth

I have always given credit to the marketing of PSA. They are second to none, hell they could sell poop sandwiches at Lobster Fest in Maine. Marketing will make you buy the sandwich but it takes all the others to get you to come back for another one.

The difference for me is that marketing can get you started or give you the occasional bump. To make it long term you need the others to keep it going.

Long term there needs to be some correlation between what you are saying and what you are selling. If there isn't, people eventually catch on. The current outings by the Blowout folks is a relatively new phenomenon. I get it that registry collectors have every incentive to continue to prop up the market value of PSA cards. But what about the person who is new to the hobby and is thinking of spending 5 or 6 figures on a slabbed card, and who is aware of what is taking place? Do you think that person will not be concerned about the soundness of his/her investment? How confident can he/she be that the next outed card will not be the one he/she just plucked $100k for?

I know I am sounding like a broken record, and I acknowledge not much has yet happened in regard to the market values of high grade slabbed vintage cards in PSA slabs. But with the outings continuing on a daily basis, continued FBI investigations, and the simple fact that IMO a very high percentage of high grade vintage slabbed cards ARE altered, I simply don't see how an informed prudent person can not begin to wonder if what he/she is buying will hold its value. And as time goes on and new collectors are needed to support the current market pricing, I am at a loss to understand how a person can be so confident in the long-term viability of high grade PSA vintage cards.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

Long term there needs to be some correlation between what you are saying and what you are selling. If there isn't, people eventually catch on. The current outings by the Blowout folks is a relatively new phenomenon. I get it that registry collectors have every incentive to continue to prop up the market value of PSA cards. But what about the person who is new to the hobby and is thinking of spending 5 or 6 figures on a slabbed card, and who is aware of what is taking place? Do you think that person will not be concerned about the soundness of his/her investment? How confident can he/she be that the next outed card will not be the one he/she just plucked $100k for?

I know I am sounding like a broken record, and I acknowledge not much has yet happened in regard to the market values of high grade slabbed vintage cards in PSA slabs. But with the outings continuing on a daily basis, continued FBI investigations, and the simple fact that IMO a very high percentage of high grade vintage slabbed cards ARE altered, I simply don't see how an informed prudent person can not begin to wonder if what he/she is buying will holds its value. And as time goes on and new collectors are needed to support the current market pricing, I am at a loss to understand how a person can be so confident in the long-term viability of high grade PSA vintage cards.

well said Corey...and you hit the nail on the head. It's one thing for current collectors to bury their heads in the sand to protect their "investments"...it's a whole different issue with newcomers looking to enter the hobby.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

Long term there needs to be some correlation between what you are saying and what you are selling. If there isn't, people eventually catch on. The current outings by the Blowout folks is a relatively new phenomenon. I get it that registry collectors have every incentive to continue to prop up the market value of PSA cards. But what about the person who is new to the hobby and is thinking of spending 5 or 6 figures on a slabbed card, and who is aware of what is taking place? Do you think that person will not be concerned about the soundness of his/her investment? How confident can he/she be that the next outed card will not be the one he/she just plucked $100k for?

I know I am sounding like a broken record, and I acknowledge not much has yet happened in regard to the market values of high grade slabbed vintage cards in PSA slabs. But with the outings continuing on a daily basis, continued FBI investigations, and the simple fact that IMO a very high percentage of high grade vintage slabbed cards ARE altered, I simply don't see how an informed prudent person can not begin to wonder if what he/she is buying will holds its value. And as time goes on and new collectors are needed to support the current market pricing, I am at a loss to understand how a person can be so confident in the long-term viability of high grade PSA vintage cards.

Corey Logically I’m 100% in agreement with you sir.

To me this is all being worked out and smoothed over. PSA is keeping quiet admitting to nothing, everything is fine, in fact it’s great check our numbers. They know to many people make money off their product, auction houses, major dealers in their smr, eBay sellers, and the major altering groups wether connected or not. It’s only an opinion nothing will ever stick to PSA in terms of liability or accountability. They know they have ironclad Marketing and a Teflon Non stick liability strategy.

Keep the submission up they’re higher then ever. Their industry will survive always has and always will. This will be forgotten in a few years. After all, this board and blowout, we are just a few malcontents on a message board.

[perezfan]

The way they ignore, deny, deflect and place all blame on others has all the earmarks of a guilty company with something to hide.

Their corporate attorney's spin statement of "We are working with the FBI to get to the bottom of blah blah blah" really means "We are being investigated by the FBI, and are begrudgingly cooperating with their officials".

The disservice they are doing to collectors is immoral and shouldn't be legal.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by perezfan

The way they ignore, deny, deflect and place all blame on others has all the earmarks of a guilty company with something to hide.

Their corporate attorney's spin statement of "We are working with the FBI to get to the bottom of blah blah blah" really means "We are being investigated by the FBI, and are begrudgingly cooperating with their officials".

The disservice they are doing to collectors is immoral and shouldn't be legal.

In the unlikely event the spit hits the fan and the stock price takes a big hit, they could have some interesting non-disclosure issues.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

In the unlikely event the spit hits the fan and the stock price takes a big hit, they could have some interesting non-disclosure issues.

I think more about likely events more then unlikely events when looking at investments and decisions in life and like to discuss likely events more than unlikely events...

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by perezfan

The way they ignore, deny, deflect and place all blame on others has all the earmarks of a guilty company with something to hide.

Their corporate attorney's spin statement of "We are working with the FBI to get to the bottom of blah blah blah" really means "We are being investigated by the FBI, and are begrudgingly cooperating with their officials".

The disservice they are doing to collectors is immoral and shouldn't be legal.

If all they get are people giving strong verbal disagreements, its not going to change anything

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

No one knows how all this will turn out of course, but it would not surprise me at all if Joe is able to stuff this the same way he was able to stuff WIWAG, Mexican holders, etc. He is not to be underestimated, and there are many factors on his side. Among those factors are allegiance, addiction, and indifference.

Don't forget lack of awareness of the problem. If 90% of the PSA collectors knew how bad it is, it would impact the market and PSA would have to step up and at least make some gesture of mitigating the problem. Historically, their motto has been, "Silence is golden" with an aggressive deletion of message board posts that raise awareness of the scandal.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

Don't forget lack of awareness of the problem. If 90% of the PSA collectors knew how bad it is, it would impact the market and PSA would have to step up and at least make some gesture of mitigating the problem. Historically, their motto has been, "Silence is golden."

Also as said before..if no lawsuits...why should anything change...everyone seems fine enough or happy with the result....

people go on and on about nothing will change...yet if i say no lawsuits. people criticize this premise and say why do i bring it up over and over again..

yet people keep saying nothing will change over and over and over again....without any criticism..

we will say its early still but also i hearing, nothing will likely happen as well so its double talk..

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

I think more about likely events more then unlikely events when looking at investments and decisions in life and like to discuss likely events more than unlikely events...

You still long CLCT?

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

You still long CLCT?

well they do more than just cards. and again, i worry about likely events, not unlikely events.......

i own Apple stock but i not happy with their protection of privacy but i buy stock based on what i think others will do in terms of the value of the stock...

[mark evans]

My hope would be that the pending FBI investigations will bear fruit with regard to card doctors and eBay sellers conspiring with those individuals. If so, I should think that successful prosecutions would have a significant positive effect on the hobby, even if PSA is able to avoid liability.

As to PSA, I defer to Peter, Jeff and the other lawyers who have had more practical experience with these issues than I had during my career. Assuming PSA was/is in fact ignorant of individual alterations, I assume one issue would be whether its argument that it provides only "opinions" will carry the day.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

we will say its early still but also i hearing, nothing will likely happen as well so its double talk..

Who is actually speaking to you about the criminal investigation or the lack of any civil litigation? Who has told you what will “likely happen”? Who are the source of what “i hearing”?

[chalupacollects]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Why is PWCC obligated to do more? it didn't guarantee its buyers a profit. It's making full restitution by refunding the purchase price. PSA is only obligated to pay market value because those are the terms of its guarantee.

They may not actually "guarantee" a profit but all of their slick marketing can presumably make one believe that they do and some good lawyering could probably make that stick...

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by chalupacollects

They may not actually "guarantee" a profit but all of their slick marketing can presumably make one believe that they do and some good lawyering could probably make that stick...

So if the card has gone down in value does PWCC only owe a partial refund?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Who is actually speaking to you about the criminal investigation or the lack of any civil litigation? Who has told you what will “likely happen”? Who are the source of what “i hearing”?

Jake has connections, apparently.

[Peter_Spaeth]

If nothing else, a stunning statement of the power of the flip and the Registry, and the ability of PSA to print money for people.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...&postcount=151

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If nothing else, a stunning statement of the power of the flip and the Registry, and the ability of PSA to print money for people.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...&postcount=151

Peter these cards are my pride and Joy, the Look N See set. What these people did to these cards is disgusting and shameful. These are obvious Hack Trimmed Short Jobs!!
Worse off is Newport Beach doesn’t know their Ass from a Hole in the Ground when it comes to properly grading these cards !!
Never in 30 years of handling these cards have I ever seen borders this thin.
If PSA is this stupid which I think otherwise now then they have know business grading these.

[aconte]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If nothing else, a stunning statement of the power of the flip and the Registry, and the ability of PSA to print money for people.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...&postcount=151

Mamma Mia! That's a lot of cannolis!

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Jake has connections, apparently.

There have been no civil lawsuits. Please correct me if i am wrong. It was you that said 'in an unlikely event spit hits the fan etc' in regards to PSA and stock price falling due to what i assume would be issues with liability with the trimming/grading issues. Thus, thats where i came up with the term unlikely event about something negative impacting PSA through all of this......dont need connections.....

if you think its likely PSA stock will plummet due to the scandal, again pleased correct me if i am wrong on what you meant.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

In the unlikely event the spit hits the fan and the stock price takes a big hit, they could have some interesting non-disclosure issues.

Here is the quote... just citing what you said...yet get criticized for saying what is likely or unlikely. Never said was an insider....

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If nothing else, a stunning statement of the power of the flip and the Registry, and the ability of PSA to print money for people.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...&postcount=151

This one wont even make the Mexican Maraca Mt. Rushmore....damages under $10,000

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

There have been no civil lawsuits. Please correct me if i am wrong. It was you that said 'in an unlikely event spit hits the fan etc' in regards to PSA and stock price falling due to what i assume would be issues with liability with the trimming/grading issues. Thus, thats where i came up with the term unlikely event about something negative impacting PSA through all of this......dont need connections.....

if you think its likely PSA stock will plummet due to the scandal, again pleased correct me if i am wrong on what you meant.

So Peter is your source as to what will “likely” happen criminally and civilly? And otherwise your knowledge going forward is based on the lack of any present civil litigation as per mentioned on the board? Have you done any searching of lawsuits nationally in any online databases? Spoken to the FBI? Spoken to any lawyers representing targets or subjects in a criminal investigation? Guessing no on all counts.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I am worthless as a source of anything but speculation, Jake, I assure you.

[perezfan]

Regarding the Vespucci Card that magically received the phantom 2-point bump, for the corrupt "frequent submitter" Johnny Adams Jr...

For what they charge, you'd think PSA could find a way to get the card positioned straight within the holder. People always defend professional grading with the excuse "I just like the way they look in the holders". To me, these tilting "condom cards" look dreadful. What an ugly way to display a $6,500.00 piece of cardboard.

[Peter_Spaeth]

This card, on the other hand, looks fabulous in the holder.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Oops.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=6077

[aconte]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Oops.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=6077

Makes you wonder how many of these 1950's 9's and 10's have been
worked on with all the ones that keep getting pointed out by BODA.

[Peter_Spaeth]

N300 Clarkson, SGC 3 in Brockelman and Luckey to PSA 5.5 in Mile High.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...&postcount=275

It looks to me like the right corners possibly were sharpened as well more visible from the back.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

N300 Clarkson, SGC 3 in Brockelman and Luckey to PSA 5.5 in Mile High.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...&postcount=275

It looks to me like the right corners possibly were sharpened as well more visible from the back.

The hits keep coming......:-(

[Bigdaddy]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

Now that you mention it, you're correct on the Sloan statement - which is appalling in my opinion, particularly since PSA is still advertising a guarantee on their website:

The PSA Guarantee of Grade and Authenticity
This policy is fundamental to PSA's concept of third-party grading. It ensures the accuracy of the grade assigned to any PSA-graded card as long as the card remains in its tamper-evident holder. PSA also guarantees that all cards submitted to it shall be graded in accordance with PSA grading standards and under the procedures of PSA.

https://www.psacard.com/about/whypsa/

I'm no lawyer, but it looks like there is enough room in that statement to drive a truck through. Who is the guarantee for - only the original seller or any buyer down the road? And it seems like it's only the grade that is guaranteed - could they just take a card that was mis-graded, say altered but still given an number grade, and reholder it with an 'Authentic - Altered' and call that their guarantee? Holding them accountable would be like what Willie Stargell said of trying to hit Koufax, "trying to drink coffee with a fork".

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Bigdaddy

I'm no lawyer, but it looks like there is enough room in that statement to drive a truck through. Who is the guarantee for - only the original seller or any buyer down the road? And it seems like it's only the grade that is guaranteed - could they just take a card that was mis-graded, say altered but still given an number grade, and reholder it with an 'Authentic - Altered' and call that their guarantee? Holding them accountable would be like what Willie Stargell said of trying to hit Koufax, "trying to drink coffee with a fork".

yet thus far seems to be an non issue and consensus of this forum is not much will change with PSA.....i would think if a poll was made, most people will think nothing will change but thats just my opinion...someone can always create a poll and prove me wrong...

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by calvindog

And you’re still a bottom-feeding idiot both in the legal profession and the hobby. Actually the Gehrig card is being addressed. But you don’t know how because, well, you don’t matter.

So was that Gehrig card 'addressed' or is this info you cant share.... .......you made a a big point that this altered gehrig card was 'being addressed' was it?

You will probably start with an insult but it was you that volunteered the card with 'being addressed' I am only asking you something in which you volunteered information and asking for a follow up, not sure what is wrong with that...

[Johnny630]

Said this numerous times PSA has a Teflon Non Stick Liability/accountability business mode. Along with two of the biggest marketing hoaxes in the industry pop report and registry. This company will get through this just like all the other scandals. It will come out stronger in the long run/everyone else will take the fall. People are making to much money on their products......they know many are backed into a corner and have to use them for the most part. I’m referring to the major auction houses, dealers, and big eBay sellers. They’re not gonna bite the hand that feeds them. So what if they have to fire people if any have been tired to being paid off for gift grades bfd.
They have a brilliant business, I have to give them credit on that’s.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Said this numerous times PSA has a Teflon Non Stick Liability/accountability business mode. Along with two of the biggest marketing hoaxes in the industry pop report and registry. This company will get through this just like all the other scandals. It will come out stronger in the long run/everyone else will take the fall. People are making to much money on their products......they know many are backed into a corner and have to use them for the most part. I’m referring to the major auction houses, dealers, and big eBay sellers.
They have a brilliant business, I have to give them credit on that’s.

so basically you will be saying nothing will likely happen against them?

[Johnny630]

Jake I can’t predict the future, I don’t know sir it’s all my theory. To me.....people with big money don’t like to be told your PSA graded cards are Sh$t they are on blowout as altered. They just think others are jealous. To many people need PSA for them to bite of their nose to spite their face.....they won’t do it.
I’m not a lawyer.......It Is an opinion only biased company...... you know how many times I try to sell a raw card I get asked do you guarantee PSA will grade this or oh I can’t pay that for a raw card PSA might call it a 6 not a 7. It’s all mental they still LOVE EAT COWER AT THE PSA THRONE...trying to get a lot of victims in court to nail them for big bucks seems very difficult to me can’t even get them to come forward. They’re going back to whom they bought the cards from. And many still don’t know....We are just a few blow hards on a message board. I think it’s all going to be worked out behind the scenes.
Short answer No PSA walks away squeaky clean.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

we will say its early still but also i hearing, nothing will likely happen as well so its double talk..

Actually you started with an insult by quoting one about you. Congrats on that.

I just wanted to point out that you are speculating and have zero knowledge as to what “I hearing .. will likely happen.” A poll is not a substitute for knowledge. I wouldn’t want anyone to mistake your speculation for actual knowledge is all. However as soon as someone hires you to sue PSA or to represent them in connection with the criminal investigation then maybe your claim that “I hearing ... nothing will likely happen” could at least be based in fact.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Jake I can’t predict the future, I don’t know sir it’s all my theory. To me.....people with big money don’t like to be told your PSA graded cards are Sh$t they are on blowout as altered. They just think others are jealous. To many people need PSA for them to bite of their nose to spite their face.....they won’t do it.
I’m not a lawyer.......It Is an opinion only biased company...... trying to get a lot of victims in court to nail them for big bucks seems very difficult to me can’t even get them to come forward. They’re going back to whom they bought the cards from. And many still don’t know....We are just a few blow hards on a message board. I think it’s all going to be worked out behind the scenes.
Short answer No PSA walks away squeaky clean.

I 100% agree. The only good part of all this is the BLEEPING A-Holes in on it have been very very quiet on the forums. No calling people idiots and morons and telling BS lies about how honest PSA/Beckett or the hobbies scumbag sellers are.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Actually you started with an insult by quoting one about you. Congrats on that.

I just wanted to point out that you are speculating and have zero knowledge as to what “I hearing .. will likely happen.” A poll is not a substitute for knowledge. I wouldn’t want anyone to mistake your speculation for actual knowledge is all. However as soon as someone hires you to sue PSA or to represent them in connection with the criminal investigation then maybe your claim that “I hearing ... nothing will likely happen” could at least be based in fact.

so you didnt answer the question on the Gehrig

Also saying only a lawyer for either side are the only people to have knowledge is a falsehood. There are lots of other ways to get knowledge. I have said a number of times i am giving an opinion. My opinion is shared by many others such as Ben and Johnny which i agree with 100% in the last 2 posts.

[calvindog]

I don’t answer your questions. Do I look like someone who answers to you?

As for your opinion, I don’t care what you think other than to point out that you shouldn’t pass it off as fact as to what “I likely hearing ... will happen.” Sorry if I inferred from that gem of clarity that you were offering a guess as opposed to facts someone told you.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by calvindog

I don’t answer your questions. Do I look like someone who answers to you?

As for your opinion, I don’t care what you think other than to point out that you shouldn’t pass it off as fact as to what “I likely hearing ... will happen.” Sorry if I inferred from that gem of clarity that you were offering a guess as opposed to facts someone told you.

eh it seems like you do care to answer considering all the posts you made about me. Again thats just my opinion based on your 30 posts on this thread

so the Gehrig card that is subject matter on this thread you said 'is being addressed' and now that considerable time as passed you wont answer it.

I can only give an opinion as to what your non answer means....

You did give an opinion that 'the hobby has been rocked' My opinion is that i dont see that at this point....

Others have said what they think likely and not likely will happen but you dont seem to care what they think , but when i say it you apparently care.

I am surprised you care so much about someone that lives on their mothers couch...

[calvindog]

I didn’t say you lived on your mom’s couch. I said your office is probably your mom’s house. Based on your posts I think that was a good guess.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

eh it seems like you do care to answer considering all the posts you made about me. Again thats just my opinion based on your 30 posts on this thread

so the Gehrig card that is subject matter on this thread you said 'is being addressed' and now that considerable time as passed you wont answer it.

I can only give an opinion as to what your non answer means....

You did give an opinion that 'the hobby has been rocked' My opinion is that i dont see that at this point....

Others have said what they think likely and not likely will happen but you dont seem to care what they think , but when i say it you apparently care.

I am surprised you care so much about someone that lives on their mothers couch...

I hear you, Jeffery has still never answered if his client PWCC is going to send out gift baskets to their supporters like Mastro did. I know I offered my support IF the gift basket was nice enough.

[Republicaninmass]

The ignore button is a helluva drug!

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by calvindog

I didn’t say you lived on your mom’s couch. I said your office is probably your mom’s house. Based on your posts I think that was a good guess.

i stand corrected, i am surprised you care about someone who's office is in their mom's house. I think you hold the mortgage to it so you can foreclose anytime so Ill watch what i say.

I think based on my posts and your reactions, i have made a good guess. We each can have our own opinions..

Still no answer on the Gehrig card....

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by bnorth

I hear you, Jeffery has still never answered if his client PWCC is going to send out gift baskets to their supporters like Mastro did. I know I offered my support IF the gift basket was nice enough.

Did Mastro basket include scissors?

[Johnny630]

What gehrig Card ?

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

What gehrig Card ?

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=5684


We were told its 'being addressed' a ways back. This is right on topic for this thread...just saying

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Bigdaddy

I'm no lawyer, but it looks like there is enough room in that statement to drive a truck through. Who is the guarantee for - only the original seller or any buyer down the road? And it seems like it's only the grade that is guaranteed - could they just take a card that was mis-graded, say altered but still given an number grade, and reholder it with an 'Authentic - Altered' and call that their guarantee? Holding them accountable would be like what Willie Stargell said of trying to hit Koufax, "trying to drink coffee with a fork".

The guarantee is not ambiguous at all. It covers marketplace purchasers (that was the whole point) and certainly applies to altered cards that were originally given numerical grades. PSA does not dispute this. The issue, rather, is application of the guarantee in individual cases, where they can control their payout just by sticking with the original grade.