Mets were 14-18 when Degrom started for them

[1952boyntoncollector]

Mets had a winning record for the year despite team only wining 14 of 32 games started by Degrom.

I know there are tons of examples of low win total pitchers on bad teams but i hadnt seen something like this on a winning team.

would a replacement pitcher and not degrom who could pitch the same amount of innings also have his team win at least 11 or so out of 32?

[chaddurbin]

Yea I think I could've done just as good as degrom...sign me up Wilpon.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Sounds like a Cy Young season to me.

Oh wait. I guess it was.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Sounds like a Cy Young season to me.

Oh wait. I guess it was.

Yep 21 wins over 2 years sounds like 2 cy youngs to me....especially when win percentage for the team on his starts are less than the team overall at least for this year.. the 2018 season stats makes sense but not 2019. Looks like real bad luck


real tough for a over .500 team to win 30 percent or whatever of a pitchers starts in 2018..

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Sounds like a Cy Young season to me.

Oh wait. I guess it was.

Naw!!!!!! Not even Pud Galvin could top Cy's career loss record, but he tried with 310 (actually Cy actually topped Pud chronologically with 315).

Suffice it to say I doubt Degrom will be lucky to garner half that number of losses regardless of how many awards he wins.

[clydepepper]

certainly more deserving than one Viagra spokesman who won a golden glove while playing only 28 games in the field.

.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

certainly more deserving than one Viagra spokesman who won a golden glove while playing only 28 games in the field.

.

well if taking viagra there were probably games played off the field too

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

certainly more deserving than one Viagra spokesman who won a golden glove while playing only 28 games in the field.

.

That was unbelievable. Did we ever get an explanation from the writers who voted for him?

[parker1b2]

But Degroms 2019 WAR was 7.9, so I guess the Mets would have been 6-26 if he didn’t start those games.

[nat]

deGrom really did have some bad luck. Obviously some of his losses were his fault, but then there are these ones:

May 1 - allows one run over seven innings (and zero earned runs), but the Mets get shut out by the Reds.

May 6 - allows two runs over seven innings, but the Mets get shut out by the Padres

June 1 - allows one run in 6.2 innings, but the relievers blow it

June 7 - allows two runs over six innings (not bad, ERA of 3.00 for the game), but the Mets score only one run and lose to the Rockies

June 13 - allows two runs over seven innings, but the relievers blow it

June 23 - allows two runs over six innings, but the relievers blow it

July 5 - allows two runs over seven innings, but the Mets' pen gives up five in the ninth

July 19 - allows zero runs over seven innings, but the Mets get shut out and the Giants get one run after he leaves the game

Aug 11 - the defense loses this game, deGrom allows zero earned runs (three unearned) and the Mets still lose

Aug 23 - allows one run over seven innings, but the Mets also score only one and the Braves get the game winner after he leaves

That's some terrible luck. deGrom himself took the loss in the May 6 and June 7 games, despite pitching well in the both of them. The Mets offense and the relief pitchers really let him down (their D also cost him one or two wins). If the Mets offense could have managed just two runs each game for him (not a big ask) he would have been 14-7. Given how well he pitched, even average luck should have given him something like 17 or 18 wins.

[chaddurbin]

of course degrom deserved the CY, op's premise for the argument was so laughable there's no good reason to engage.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by chaddurbin

of course degrom deserved the CY, op's premise for the argument was so laughable there's no good reason to engage.

Your comment is laughable as its so negative and trolling. I just brought up an interesting situation, find me a similar example in the last 40 years etc.


Its just odd to win back to back Cy Youngs with a total of 20 wins or so especially when one year the team had decent winning record and in that year in that pitchers stars the team lost far more games than they won

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by parker1b2

But Degroms 2019 WAR was 7.9, so I guess the Mets would have been 6-26 if he didn’t start those games.

I fine that hard to believe when the team was over .500, 6 and 26 is a really hard record to obtain....you would think at least 10 wins..so a cy young basically wins your team 4 more games..in a season versus starting Steven Brach or however you spell it on the pirates...just fill in a number 4-5 pitcher

[Jim65]

Jacob deGrom was the best pitcher in the NL the last 2 years, period. The Mets bullpen was atrocious and blew many wins for him. His combined ERA the last 2 years is 2.05, with sub 1.00 WHIP both years, you really think a average replacement would do that?

BTW, his name is deGrom, not Degrom.

[familytoad]

As long as winning isn't important anymore, sure he's the best.
Big deal.

[BaltOrioles]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

Mets had a winning record for the year despite team only wining 14 of 32 games started by Degrom.

I know there are tons of examples of low win total pitchers on bad teams but i hadnt seen something like this on a winning team.

would a replacement pitcher and not degrom who could pitch the same amount of innings also have his team win at least 11 or so out of 32?

The 1983 World Champion Baltimore Orioles were 96-66 during the regular season. Dennis Martinez, a pretty decent pitcher with 245 career wins, started 32 games and had a record of 7-16. I'm not sure what the Orioles record was in his starts, but that's the worst record I can remember for a starting pitcher on a World Series champion.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by BaltOrioles

The 1983 World Champion Baltimore Orioles were 96-66 during the regular season. Dennis Martinez, a pretty decent pitcher with 245 career wins, started 32 games and had a record of 7-16. I'm not sure what the Orioles record was in his starts, but that's the worst record I can remember for a starting pitcher on a World Series champion.

I may have this wrong but I think Martinez is the answer to the question who has the most lifetime wins without a 20 win season.

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by familytoad

As long as winning isn't important anymore, sure he's the best.
Big deal.

So you think a pitcher who is 21-5 with a 5.00 ERA is better than a pitcher who is 11-9 with a 1.70 ERA?

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Jim65

So you think a pitcher who is 21-5 with a 5.00 ERA is better than a pitcher who is 11-9 with a 1.70 ERA?

I dont he or I are saying your proposed bad pitcher with a 5.00 era is better than degrom, but saying for this year, it seems as far as wins a losses by the team, a cy young statistical season did not seem to net this years Mets team and more wins then an innings eater pitcher...just an interesting observation..

tricky to tie stats to team wins and losses..

[Peter_Spaeth]

DeGrom on the Astros probably goes 22-3.

When you get no run support and your bullpen consistently lets you down, not much you can do W-L wise.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by BaltOrioles

The 1983 World Champion Baltimore Orioles were 96-66 during the regular season. Dennis Martinez, a pretty decent pitcher with 245 career wins, started 32 games and had a record of 7-16. I'm not sure what the Orioles record was in his starts, but that's the worst record I can remember for a starting pitcher on a World Series champion.

right but he didnt win a cy young that year or even the the second best pitcher on his own team....number 4 pitchers on great teams can be under .500 in team wins., thats not unusual....he was 8 and 24 in team wins though...thats pretty bad

usualy the excuse of a great pitcher with a bad records is 'his team was terrible' which is what people say about nolan ryan, but this years mets team had a winning record ..and better than just 82-80 etc

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

DeGrom on the Astros probably goes 22-3.

When you get no run support and your bullpen consistently lets you down, not much you can do W-L wise.

You can say that about other Met starters this year (their runs support 5.00 around instead of 4+ which would not have changed many team outcomes)though and they had winning records or very close.

Jason Vargas run support was 4.44 while Degrom was like 4.13 yet Mets were 14-16 when he started games for them. He has same bullpen as Degrom..

Winning a game 11-0 is great for your era and whip..but if you lose the next 2 games 4-2..your team just 1-2

4.13 runs a game run support is not terrible. for Degrom ..heck 1988 Orel Hershiser run support was 4.03 and his era was basically only .1 (2.3 v 2.4) less than Degrom yet his team was 25.-9 in Hershiser's starts...

[1952boyntoncollector]

Whats also crazy is Degrom's mets won his last 4 starts and 3 of them he got the win.

those games were really when the mets were all but eliminated...the start before that his team scored 10 runs but lost..

so really if you take away the last 4 games which were against september call ups and teams with no incentive to win miami, ciny, arizona, dodgers , the mets were 10-18 in his starts..


...its not like he was facing the cubs/braves/washington/cardinals (he did in August face some of those teams and his team was 0-3 in his starts )

[nat]

Look at the games in post 10. Those losses were not his fault. Of course every pitcher every year has some tough luck losses, but not like that. Not that many. He just happened to be pitching on the days that the Mets got shut out or scored only one run over and over again. Sure, on other days he won 13-2 (or whatever), which will balance out the runs support, but if the offense doesn't show up you aren't going to get a win no matter how well you pitch.

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

Whats also crazy is Degrom's mets won his last 4 starts and 3 of them he got the win.

the start before that his team scored 10 runs but lost..

so really if you take away the last 4 games which were against september call ups and teams with no incentive to win miami, ciny, arizona, dodgers , the mets were 10-18 in his starts..

Every pitcher faces weak teams. deGrom pitched 28 innings in those last 4 starts and gave up 1 run. He should have been 4-0 but the team scored 0 runs for him in the Dodger game.

The 10 run game, Jake left up 10-4 and the bullpen gave up 7 runs in the bottom of the 9th.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Jake perhaps you should revive your posts about how Kershaw really is a good postseason pitcher.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Jake perhaps you should revive your posts about how Kershaw really is a good postseason pitcher.

he was when i was posting it...just said he didnt suck....didnt bring him up at all this year. at any point......im sure when degrom is 41 and getting rocked ill be sure to bring him up to you how he is doing..

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Jim65

Every pitcher faces weak teams. deGrom pitched 28 innings in those last 4 starts and gave up 1 run. He should have been 4-0 but the team scored 0 runs for him in the Dodger game.

The 10 run game, Jake left up 10-4 and the bullpen gave up 7 runs in the bottom of the 9th.

he still did win 3 of those last 4 games so he did cash in those starts even if he only gave up 1 run.. 3 out of 4 is not unusual..

and yes every pitcher faces weak teams but september starts and hitting stats are always taken with a grain of salt against non contending teams....but yeah degrom was dominate in those meaningless games against non contending teams..... we have a very large sample size which shows that the mets were a losing team when he took the hill when they otherwise were a winning team and by a very large margin a winning team if take away the minus 4 with degrom

he still averaged over 4 runs of run support for Cy Young pitchers on winning teams (and better than just 82-80) ..getting 4+runs a game should mean a winning record in terms of team wins... ... .

[packs]

I don't think either of his CY winning seasons were as impressive as Zach Greinke's in 2009. He went 16-8 on a team that only won 65 games. Not only did he win nearly 25 percent of all the games the Royals won that year, but his 242 strike outs accounted for about 20 percent of the entire team's total. His 229 innings were about 16 percent of all innings pitched that year too.

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by packs

I don't think either of his CY winning seasons were as impressive as Zach Greinke's in 2009. He went 16-8 on a team that only won 65 games. Not only did he win nearly 25 percent of all the games the Royals won that year, but his 242 strike outs accounted for about 20 percent of the entire team's total. His 229 innings were about 16 percent of all innings pitched that year too.

Nice year, not as impressive as Steve Carlton winning 27 games in 1972 for a Phillies team that went 59-97

[packs]

Originally Posted by Jim65

Nice year, not as impressive as Steve Carlton winning 27 games in 1972 for a Phillies team that went 59-97

Definitely not. But more impressive than deGrom.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Carlton is first on this list of great seasons for bad teams.

https://www.mlb.com/news/best-mlb-se...ams-c295838598

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Jim65

Nice year, not as impressive as Steve Carlton winning 27 games in 1972 for a Phillies team that went 59-97

right if his team won 14 of 32 games, i wouldn't question that at all, that would actually be impressive. His run support was 3.83 and he didnt cry about it

Of course from 1986 , 4 out of 5 teams he played for his era was over 5.00

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by packs

I don't think either of his CY winning seasons were as impressive as Zach Greinke's in 2009. He went 16-8 on a team that only won 65 games. Not only did he win nearly 25 percent of all the games the Royals won that year, but his 242 strike outs accounted for about 20 percent of the entire team's total. His 229 innings were about 16 percent of all innings pitched that year too.

His run support was 3.78, 6 complete games and 3 shuthouts

his team also lost at least 5 games when he gave up zero or 1 run...some of them the 7 and 8 inning 0 earned run variety..

[familytoad]

Ya, I wasn't saying that deGrom was a bad pitcher or was worse than someone 21-5 with a 5.00 ERA.
I'm just saying that its obvious that wins don't matter for individual pitchers and I'm indifferent.

Nothing was ever wrong with winning before. But those days are gone.
If a team decides to use a new pitcher every inning then no starting pitcher will ever earn a win ( Frank posted about this previously)
I think its foolish. But whatever...

There were plenty of pitchers winning Cy Young awards by winning games. And plenty of batters winning MVP awards by having high batting average and driving in a lot of runs. Suddenly that doesn't apply anymore.

Please consider removing thine self from my lawn.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I may have this wrong but I think Martinez is the answer to the question who has the most lifetime wins without a 20 win season.

Was Jerry Reuss for a while. I think that "record" went Pappas, Reuss, Martinez

Not chronological:

245 Dennis Martinez
240 Frank Tanana
220 Jerry Reuss
219 Kenny Rogers
216 Charlie Hough
214 Mark Buehrle
209 Milt Pappas
200 Chuck Finley
200 Tim Wakefield

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by familytoad

Ya, I wasn't saying that deGrom was a bad pitcher or was worse than someone 21-5 with a 5.00 ERA.
I'm just saying that its obvious that wins don't matter for individual pitchers and I'm indifferent.

Nothing was ever wrong with winning before. But those days are gone.
If a team decides to use a new pitcher every inning then no starting pitcher will ever earn a win ( Frank posted about this previously)
I think its foolish. But whatever...

There were plenty of pitchers winning Cy Young awards by winning games. And plenty of batters winning MVP awards by having high batting average and driving in a lot of runs. Suddenly that doesn't apply anymore.

Please consider removing thine self from my lawn.

I also not addressing getting the W, whats interesting to me is whether the team gets the W. Afterall thats what you pay your pitcher for...for whatever reason if your team doesnt get wins when a certain pitcher starts and it happens over and over with a cy young winner....just wondering if that should matter

yes if SP is not getting deep into games that could matter, but then why pay them so much money. Running backs in the NFL just arent valued like they used to be pay wise...if Cy Young pitchers dont net their team wins and its more of the bullpen deciding everything..that would be interesting in terms of future value....

[packs]

I don't think the days of winning are gone at all. Look at Eduardo Rodriguez. He went 19-6 last year and finished 6th in Cy Young voting despite having an ERA up near 4.00 (3.81) and leading the league in walks. How else does a pitcher who led the league in walks get any votes unless wins still matter?

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by packs

I don't think the days of winning are gone at all. Look at Eduardo Rodriguez. He went 19-6 last year and finished 6th in Cy Young voting despite having an ERA up near 4.00 (3.81) and leading the league in walks. How else does a pitcher who led the league in walks get any votes unless wins still matter?

I not looking at his stats but what were the hits...walks mean less to me if there are less hits....walks are better to give up then hits imo

also AL era is a different animal than NL era..

[packs]

He gave up almost a hit per inning; 203 innings and 195 hits. None of his stats indicate a Cy Young season other than his win total, which was 3rd in the league. Every pitcher he finished behind had a lower ERA and more strike outs. Obviously less walks.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by packs

He gave up almost a hit per inning; 203 innings and 195 hits. None of his stats indicate a Cy Young season other than his win total, which was 3rd in the league. Every pitcher he finished behind had a lower ERA and more strike outs. Obviously less walks.

how is team do on games he didnt get the decision....

i know if there was a pitcher with his win /loss but his team was say 26-3 on games started by him...obviously didnt happen for him but you see where i am going ...

[MRSPORTSCARDCOLLECTOR]

Originally Posted by packs

He gave up almost a hit per inning; 203 innings and 195 hits. None of his stats indicate a Cy Young season other than his win total, which was 3rd in the league. Every pitcher he finished behind had a lower ERA and more strike outs. Obviously less walks.

His 2019 season reminded me of Rick Porcello`s Cy Young season of 2016. Normal average but not Cy Young. When I think of Cy Young winning seasons I think of Pedro Martinez and Roger Clemens not Erod or Porcello.
Also I think the Degrom season this year was kind of like Sale`s in that the teams lost so many of their starts is because Degrom and Sale go up against other team`top starters.

[nat]

deGrom's opposing starters:

Scherzer
Trevor Richards (?)
Kyle Gibson
Julio Teheran
Chase Anderson
Anthony DiScalfani
Chris Paddack
Sandy Alcantara
Trevor Richards
Max Scherzer
Clayton Kershaw
Zack Greinke
Antonio Senzatela
Jack Flaherty
Julio Teheran
Mike Soroka
Cole Hamels
Vince Valesquez
Sandy Alcantara
Tyler Beede
Eric Lauer
Lucas Giolito
Robert Dugger
Anibal Sanchez
Jakob Junis
Mike Foltywentiz
Jon Lester
Scherzer again
Merrill Kelly
Hyu-Jin Ryu
Luis Castillo
Robert Dugger

Not sure what to expect really, but that does seem like a lot of good pitchers. Matching up with Scherzer three times is tough (for both of them!) It makes sense that aces would match up with aces early in the season, but that as the season progresses you'd see less of it (guys get hurt, somebody gets tired and skips their turn in the rotation, off days don't match up). But for whatever reason deGrom does seem to have faced strong opponents. By my totally subjective "gee I wouldn't want to see him starting for the other team" assessment, I see 13 really strong opposing pitchers. That's just under half of deGrom's starts, so way more than you'd expect if pitchers were matched up randomly. (Or maybe they are matched up randomly and deGrom just got really unlucky.)

[MRSPORTSCARDCOLLECTOR]

Originally Posted by nat

deGrom's opposing starters:

Scherzer
Trevor Richards (?)
Kyle Gibson
Julio Teheran
Chase Anderson
Anthony DiScalfani
Chris Paddack
Sandy Alcantara
Trevor Richards
Max Scherzer
Clayton Kershaw
Zack Greinke
Antonio Senzatela
Jack Flaherty
Julio Teheran
Mike Soroka
Cole Hamels
Vince Valesquez
Sandy Alcantara
Tyler Beede
Eric Lauer
Lucas Giolito
Robert Dugger
Anibal Sanchez
Jakob Junis
Mike Foltywentiz
Jon Lester
Scherzer again
Merrill Kelly
Hyu-Jin Ryu
Luis Castillo
Robert Dugger

Not sure what to expect really, but that does seem like a lot of good pitchers. Matching up with Scherzer three times is tough (for both of them!) It makes sense that aces would match up with aces early in the season, but that as the season progresses you'd see less of it (guys get hurt, somebody gets tired and skips their turn in the rotation, off days don't match up). But for whatever reason deGrom does seem to have faced strong opponents. By my totally subjective "gee I wouldn't want to see him starting for the other team" assessment, I see 13 really strong opposing pitchers. That's just under half of deGrom's starts, so way more than you'd expect if pitchers were matched up randomly. (Or maybe they are matched up randomly and deGrom just got really unlucky.)

Good stuff.
Same thing happened to Sale going against the MLB`s best pitchers.
Erod was the Red Sox fourth/fifth starter, and went up against a lot of mediocre pitchers and hence got run support. I doubt Erod wins 19 games again next year.
12-8 most likely.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by packs

I don't think either of his CY winning seasons were as impressive as Zach Greinke's in 2009. He went 16-8 on a team that only won 65 games. Not only did he win nearly 25 percent of all the games the Royals won that year, but his 242 strike outs accounted for about 20 percent of the entire team's total. His 229 innings were about 16 percent of all innings pitched that year too.

Greinke's 2009 Cy Young-winning season:
ERA 2.16
ERA+ 205
FIP 2.33
WHIP 1.073

deGrom's 2018 Cy Young-winning season:
ERA 1.70
ERA+ 218
FIP 1.98
WHIP 0.912

I don't know. deGrom's first Cy Young season seems more impressive than Greinke's.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Greinke's 2009 Cy Young-winning season:
ERA 2.16
ERA+ 205
FIP 2.33
WHIP 1.073

deGrom's 2018 Cy Young-winning season:
ERA 1.70
ERA+ 218
FIP 1.98
WHIP 0.912

I don't know. deGrom's first Cy Young season seems more impressive than Greinke's.

Its not how many runs you give up, its when you give up the runs. If you give up 20 runs in 6 games...but 15 runs in one game in a loss and the other 5 games you give up 1 run and win all five and are 5-1....thats better to me then giving up 15 runs over 6 games but losing all 6 by 1 run.......this is just the theory....

Degrom's team was well over .500 Zack's team was well below .500...yet Zach's team won a large portion of his starts... to me team wins matter ...stats matter too of course.....but putting all together...i like Grienke's season much better...imo i havent checked but will assume the run support was more or very close for DeGrom as well. adjusted for NL/AL..

[packs]

I think Greinke's season was remarkable because he was able to put together a season like that in spite of his team. The 2018 Mets had three other starting pitchers who threw 150 innings or more with sub 4.00 ERAs. The 2009 Royals had Greinke and then Brian Bannister, who went 7-12 with a 4.73 ERA. No other starting pitcher threw 150 innings or more in 2009 for that team, or had a lower ERA than Bannister's.