Outed cards, now including a 130K gain on an Aaron rookie

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by samosa4u

Somebody seriously needs to post an update on this whole mess. Since the FBI got involved, what exactly has changed?

Unless they can delve deeply into PSAs database and inner circle, nothing at all will change. Unless the FBI forces the change, you will see nothing positive or proactive that is done voluntarily. Dishonest people and corrupt entities do not instill change unless they are caught, and the change is forced upon them. Hell, PSA still won’t even admit there’s a problem brewing... despite the endless flood of altered numerically slabbed cards being exposed every day (with no hint of a slowdown in sight).

This hobby/business provides no voice for the consumer... it’s just the same hyperbole and lies from the controlling “powers that be”. Since the hypnotized majority wants status-quo, and the offending companies won’t come clean, the FBI represents our last hope for full disclosure and positive change. Please don’t let us down!

[HRBAKER]

"Don't rock the boat" and "Don't bite the hand" come to mind.

[samosa4u]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Unless they can delve deeply into PSAs database and inner circle, nothing at all will change. Unless the FBI forces the change, you will see nothing positive or proactive that is done voluntarily. Dishonest people and corrupt entities do not instill change unless they are caught, and the change is forced upon them. Hell, PSA still won’t even admit there’s a problem brewing... despite the endless flood of altered numerically slabbed cards being exposed every day (with no hint of a slowdown in sight).

This hobby/business provides no voice for the consumer... it’s just the same hyperbole and lies from the controlling “powers that be”. Since the hypnotized majority wants status-quo, and the offending companies won’t come clean, the FBI represents our last hope for full disclosure and positive change. Please don’t let us down!

Well, I recall reading somewhere that the FBI guys sometimes attend the Net54 Dinners and then afterwards they all play a few games of Musical Chairs. Maybe a few of them post on this forum? An update from one of them would be nice. The only guy who did comment on this whole thing was Lichtman, but he got ripped apart and I doubt he'll be discussing this subject here again. LOL

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by samosa4u

Well, I recall reading somewhere that the FBI guys sometimes attend the Net54 Dinners and then afterwards they all play a few games of Musical Chairs. Maybe a few of them post on this forum? An update from one of them would be nice. The only guy who did comment on this whole thing was Lichtman, but he got ripped apart and I doubt he'll be discussing this subject here again. LOL

There is zero chance an FBI agent is going to comment in public about an ongoing investigation, much less on a message board.

[samosa4u]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

There is zero chance an FBI agent is going to comment in public about an ongoing investigation, much less on a message board.

Well, it's not terrorism we're talking about here or a murder case. It's just a bunch of effing idiots trimmmmmmmmiiiiing trimmmming cards and making lots and lots of moolah. But they've already been outed by BODA. By posting a simple update, I don't think it's going to jeopardize anything.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

There is zero chance an FBI agent is going to comment in public about an ongoing investigation, much less on a message board.

Yep.... we just need to wait it out, and see how the cards fall (pardon the pun). Will likely take months for the Feds to sort everything out, and perhaps another year before we see/hear anything concrete.

I'd actually prefer to wait a year, knowing they conducted a full and thorough investigation, than have a hasty/shallow investigation that leads only to a few refunds and hand-slaps. It's worth the wait, provided their findings lead to stern sentences, crackdowns on TPGs, and other forms of meaningful change.

[Peter_Spaeth]

It can take years. See Mastro/Allen.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Lol.
Clct 28.49 usd +2.67 (10.34%)

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Lol.
Clct 28.49 usd +2.67 (10.34%)

Wow !!! This one is to hot to chase....

[Peter_Spaeth]

Scandal? Nah. LOL. Joe is winning big.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Scandal? Nah. LOL. Joe is winning big.

Agree Peter...

Guys holding big money in cards in PSA holders along with the investors aren’t going to change their minds. It’s the big time players that influence or move this industry...All logically this makes sense/fundamentally I do not like the longer term outlook for high end.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Agree Peter...

Guys holding big money in cards in PSA holders along with the investors aren’t going to change their minds. It’s the big time players that influence or move this industry...All logically this makes sense/fundamentally I do not like the longer term outlook for high end.

As long as registry collectors don't care if they are defrauded it won't matter.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Leon

As long as registry collectors don't care if they are defrauded it won't matter.

Agree Leon....

[egbeachley]

Originally Posted by Leon

As long as registry collectors don't care if they are defrauded it won't matter.

But high grade sets on the Registry have lost their luster. I just say “meh, big deal, they are all trimmed”.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Leon

As long as registry collectors don't care if they are defrauded it won't matter.

I think the Registry People fall into 4 basic categories...

1. Those who only care about the number on the flip. It does not matter to them, that the card is proven altered. Their undying faith and love for PSA supersedes any common logic and indisputable proof of alteration. They do not even question how the card received its assigned grade. They just like to look at the number.

2. Those who are in denial. They don't think there is any scandal brewing. They poo-poo the concept of card doctoring, and do not think the "before and after" photos constitute proof of any wrongdoing. They cannot even admit that the two images are of the same exact card. To them, the PSA assigned grade is the word of God.

3. Those who emphatically state "NOT MY CARDS". They acknowledge the doctoring and alterations, and PSA's thousands of grading errors. But miraculously, none of these "mistakes" apply to their specific cards! They know for a fact that their cards are good... either they were graded before the scandal, or they were looked at by a second set of eyes, or they were purchased from a reputable dealer, blah blah blah.

4. Those who care deeply, and value the credibility and legitimacy of their collections. They do not want any altered cards residing in their collections, yet they have no knowledge of the corruption. If they knew they were sitting on tainted cards (and spent huge sums of money acquiring them), they would demand justice.

I believe that #4 constitutes the biggest group. It's just a tiny percentage of collectors who frequent these forums, and are aware of what's really happening. If there was a better way to spread awareness, there would be more outrage, call for change, and ultimately some much needed regulation.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Excellent thoughts. I remember well a poster here from a decade ago who, at least in his public stance, fit squarely into category 3.

[drcy]

I think there is a 5) Those who believe many cards, including some of theirs, are altered but don't care, because all that matters is the number. They want that to be everyone's reality, and, to a degree in this hobby, it is.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by drcy

I think there is a 5) Those who believe many cards, including some of theirs, are altered but don't care, because all that matters is the number

I think that's category 1?

[CobbSpikedMe]

Originally Posted by drcy

I think there is a 5) Those who believe many cards, including some of theirs, are altered but don't care, because all that matters is the number

Isn't that the same as #1?

Edited to add: Peter beat me to it while I was typing.

[ullmandds]

1 and 2 are pretty much the same to me?

[GeoPoto]

Nobody knows how much "help" any given graded card has received. What we think we know is that it received the grade fairly, it is authentic, and it's scarcity can be approximated by pop reports and other data. The "value" if there is any in graded cards stems from their rarety. The "reveal" in the Blowout saga is that the doctors are mining mid-level graded cards to produce high(er)-level graded cards. This is very threatening to the TPG business model. I have to believe that PSA is scrambling now to prevent that going forward.

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

[1952boyntoncollector]

As long a people keep buying the number on the flip...nothing to see here

[Leon]

Good old Jim C.
Twenty thousand slabs and every one perfectly legit. And no creases on that Wagner. Both are accurate statements.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Excellent thoughts. I remember well a poster here from a decade ago who, at least in his public stance, fit squarely into category 3.

[Scott L.]

Wonder how Mr. Crandall is doing in his quest for however many sets in PSA 8 or better that he was one? Is he still in the hobby? He used to be a frequent poster on here and the CU boards but I haven't seen anything from him in years.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Interesting post on Blowout about card-buyer.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=1272

Cross-reference to post 427 above.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Interesting post on Blowout about card-buyer.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=1272

Cross-reference to post 427 above.

WOW this is a new low. A dealer says a card is for their personal collection then turns around and sells it. Must be some kind of new thing we all need to look out for.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Here's a 2013 archived page where he claims he and his 9 year old son are passionate collectors.

https://web.archive.org/web/20130827...om/?page_id=32

1.WE ARE COLLECTORS just like you and have been buying cards since 1977 ….we are NOT DEALERS LOOKING TO RESELL YOUR CARDS AT A PROFIT. There is no need for a middle man looking to make money off your cards since we are purchasing for our own personal collection allowing us to offer more.

If memory serves, there was a thread last year about an email from PSA regarding the same person, again mentioning the apparently still 9 year old son.

EDIT TO ADD
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...ight=cardbuyer

[2dueces]

Since this is an ongoing investigation whatever happened to the bogus autograph scandal? I don’t remember any charges. I thought there were people here who know who but seems like no matter how much evidence is brought to light nothing is done. Or maybe I missed something? Or is it still in the works?

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Here's a 2013 archived page where he claims he and his 9 year old son are passionate collectors.

https://web.archive.org/web/20130827...om/?page_id=32

1.WE ARE COLLECTORS just like you and have been buying cards since 1977 ….we are NOT DEALERS LOOKING TO RESELL YOUR CARDS AT A PROFIT. There is no need for a middle man looking to make money off your cards since we are purchasing for our own personal collection allowing us to offer more.

If memory serves, there was a thread last year about an email from PSA regarding the same person, again mentioning the apparently still 9 year old son.

EDIT TO ADD
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...ight=cardbuyer

Are these the guys who put adds in big Papers Stating they will be at such and such hotel on such and such weekend buying card collections or are those different guys ?

[tschock]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Here's a 2013 archived page where he claims he and his 9 year old son are passionate collectors.

https://web.archive.org/web/20130827...om/?page_id=32

1.WE ARE COLLECTORS just like you and have been buying cards since 1977 ….we are NOT DEALERS LOOKING TO RESELL YOUR CARDS AT A PROFIT. There is no need for a middle man looking to make money off your cards since we are purchasing for our own personal collection allowing us to offer more.

If memory serves, there was a thread last year about an email from PSA regarding the same person, again mentioning the apparently still 9 year old son.

EDIT TO ADD
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...ight=cardbuyer

I sure hope they will be successful in getting Rich's 9 year old son out of suspended animation.
http://cardbuyer.com/about-us

[chalupacollects]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Are these the guys who put adds in big Papers Stating they will be at such and such hotel on such and such weekend buying card collections or are those different guys ?

Same guys...

[chalupacollects]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Here's a 2013 archived page where he claims he and his 9 year old son are passionate collectors.

https://web.archive.org/web/20130827...om/?page_id=32

1.WE ARE COLLECTORS just like you and have been buying cards since 1977 ….we are NOT DEALERS LOOKING TO RESELL YOUR CARDS AT A PROFIT. There is no need for a middle man looking to make money off your cards since we are purchasing for our own personal collection allowing us to offer more.

If memory serves, there was a thread last year about an email from PSA regarding the same person, again mentioning the apparently still 9 year old son.

EDIT TO ADD
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...ight=cardbuyer

Maybe now the naysayers on the old thread I started are seeing things differently???

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by chalupacollects

Same guys...

Ugh.....

Wonder if these guys have front row seats at the Newport Beach Top Secret Invitationals with the graders

[Peter_Spaeth]

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...315750&page=51

and other pages on same the thread

Seriously. WTF is going on with PSA and this guy? What is the process here by which this is happening? I have spoken to dealers who have submitted high end vintage cards for a lifetime and haven't received as many 10s as this guy seems to get on a single submission. Some that can be traced to lower grade holders, some that can't.

This is really effed up, IMO.

Is there ever going to be a reckoning? Or is nobody ever going to bite the hand that feeds him?

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...315750&page=51

and other pages on same the thread

Seriously. WTF is going on with PSA and this guy? What is the process here by which this is happening? I have spoken to dealers who have submitted high end vintage cards for a lifetime and haven't received as many 10s as this guy seems to get on a single submission. Some that can be traced to lower grade holders, some that can't.

This is really effed up, IMO.

Is there ever going to be a reckoning? Or is nobody ever going to bite the hand that feeds him?

PSA high grade, PSA 8 and above prices are going plummet....In my mind....it won’t be long.....it’s not a matter of if anymore......it’s when...that time is getting closer and closer. If law and order doesn’t handle it the lack of buyers will

[Scott L.]

Still buying....

[Rhotchkiss]

Peter, sounds like a good subject for another article. Things like this must get off the message boards and into the mainstream

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

PSA high grade, PSA 8 and above prices are going plummet....In my mind....it won’t be long.....it’s not a matter of if anymore......it’s when...that time is getting closer and closer. If law and order doesn’t handle it the lack of buyers will

Is it time to sell my only psa 10...a GRONK rookie??????

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Peter, sounds like a good subject for another article. Things like this must get off the message boards and into the mainstream

Without someone with inside knowledge willing to break ranks with the machine, nothing in the public domain is going to help. It's a joke -- all the shit that's been exposed and the stock is way up and the submission queue has never been longer. My friend can't even get a card reholdered for me after THREE months. And so far, no one on the inside is breaking ranks, they're too busy feeding at the trough. PSA has it all figured out. Give Joe credit. The brand he built/solidified looks like it can withstand a nuclear attack.

Will law enforcement make a difference? We'll see.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Is it time to sell my only psa 10...a GRONK rookie??????

Yes ! Immediately

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Without someone with inside knowledge willing to break ranks with the machine, nothing in the public domain is going to help. It's a joke -- all the shit that's been exposed and the stock is way up and the submission queue has never been longer. My friend can't even get a card reholdered for me after THREE months. And so far, no one on the inside is breaking ranks, they're too busy feeding at the trough. PSA has it all figured out. Give Joe credit. The brand he built/solidified looks like it can withstand a nuclear attack.

Will law enforcement make a difference? We'll see.

Peter I have confidence someone is gonna roll.....will open the flood gates....I know it’s disheartening hang in there...it’s gonna come back to bite them in their rear.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Hmmmm.... last Mile High had some controversy and cards taken down -- we'll see if there's any substance to this one (from BO).

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=5567

[Rhotchkiss]

I agree with Johnny to hang in there. You and BODA are making a difference - it’s a marathon not a sprint (or even a 10k), and the facts are on the side of right. Some change will come of this (I hope). We need a more honest “hobby”, and I feel strongly that recent and continued efforts will help push the hobby in that direction. Forward!

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...315750&page=51

and other pages on same the thread

Seriously. WTF is going on with PSA and this guy? What is the process here by which this is happening? I have spoken to dealers who have submitted high end vintage cards for a lifetime and haven't received as many 10s as this guy seems to get on a single submission. Some that can be traced to lower grade holders, some that can't.

This is really effed up, IMO.

Is there ever going to be a reckoning? Or is nobody ever going to bite the hand that feeds him?

And to think guys like this scammer are like ANTS. THEY ARE EVERYWHERE. This just one of a handful that is caught. There are 50 others for every one outed and that's conservative, IMHO.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Peter I have confidence someone is gonna roll.....will open the flood gates....I know it’s disheartening hang in there...it’s gonna come back to bite them in their rear.

Maybe Fred will Roll?


https://youtu.be/5haMVR5my-s?t=71

[Rickyy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...315750&page=51

and other pages on same the thread

Seriously. WTF is going on with PSA and this guy? What is the process here by which this is happening? I have spoken to dealers who have submitted high end vintage cards for a lifetime and haven't received as many 10s as this guy seems to get on a single submission. Some that can be traced to lower grade holders, some that can't.

This is really effed up, IMO.

Is there ever going to be a reckoning? Or is nobody ever going to bite the hand that feeds him?

Even if you go to his web page, there is no information as to who he (they) really are or where they are even located. You have to contact them first via email....


Ricky Y

[Peter_Spaeth]

Elsewhere on the thread their names and locations have been identified.

[Exhibitman]

Here is my question for anyone who really believes that PSA is corrupt: what are you doing about it?
--Still submitting cards?
--Still selling PSA product?
--Still collecting PSA product?
--Still have a PSA Collectors Club membership?
--Still have PSA registry sets?

Why not start to take a stand by resigning your PSA CC membership and deleting your registry sets? Or start a public boycott of PSA services and products? Complaining on a chat board about this purportedly corrupt entity isn't principled in and of itself, it is just whining.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Here is my question for anyone who really believes that PSA is corrupt: what are you doing about it?
--Still submitting cards?
--Still selling PSA product?
--Still collecting PSA product?
--Still have a PSA Collectors Club membership?
--Still have PSA registry sets?

Why not start to take a stand by resigning your PSA CC membership and deleting your registry sets? Or start a public boycott of PSA services and products? Complaining on a chat board about this purportedly corrupt entity isn't principled in and of itself, it is just whining.

YES! Totally agree!!! But my livelihood doesn't depend on PSA.

[perezfan]

So moving forward, cover-ups, corruption and deceit should be the hobby norm?

It's like a vape store saying they're sticking by their product because their business model depends on it. Never mind the fact that people are now dying. Sad state of affairs.