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  #801  
Old 08-04-2019, 10:56 AM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
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Default T206 REFERENCE...How do you collect T206's: Graded or Ungraded ?...show us your cards

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *



.... Sweet Caporal .... Sovereign .......... Piedmont____The "House" that created these Tobacco cards__American Beauty ... Sovereign .......... UZIT



This thread will provide references to major contributions posted on Net54 these past 14 years that have formed a better understanding of "The Monster" [as Bill Heitman
so aptly coined his T206 book (circa 1980)].

Let's start with the 2005-2006 publication of Scot Reader's Inside T206
An excellent, very informative, and well written book that inspired many of us Net54ers to post our experiences and theory's regarding the complexities of the T206 series.

One of the early and very significant T206 threads was posted in June 2006 by Barry Arnold, titled T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection ?
This thread sparked lots of brainstorming among Net54ers regarding T206's. It included surveys; and, various aspects of the T206 series were explored.....resulting in 363
meaningful posts. Furthermore, between many of us Net54ers, it was "the start of of a beautiful friendship" (to quote Claude Raines to Humphrey Bogart in Casablanca).

In the Summer of 2006, Bill Brown posted his T206 Super-Set (excel) spreadsheet. Bill received 1000's of inputs from Net54ers for this spreadsheet. It was a great start
in the pursuit of what a T206 "master" set would be comprised of....T206 Super-Set

Sept 2007, I started a thread titled Joe Doyle NAT'L and it's 11 "cousins"....SURVEY to explore certain PIEDMONT 350 cards that I considered as rare as the Joe Doyle
"error" card. I eventually referred to these particular T206's as the Elite 11


Subsequent posts in this thread will expand on theory's regarding the structure of the T206 series and the front/back permutations that have resulted. A fair number of the
theory's presented on Net54 (since 2006) have withstood the test of time. Providing accurate lists of which front/back combos were printed. And, which ones are No-Prints.

So, stay tuned......many more T206 "oldies but goodies" References and Reflections will be posted here.

And, feel free to contribute any meaningful T206 stories, or experiences collecting T206's that you have.

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___________________________________

INDEX

Post #1......Introduction....plus Scot Reader's " Inside T206 " book, and 3 significant T206 threads (circa..2006) for starters.

Set your user settings to display 50 posts per Page. Then click on the topic of interest, then scan page for Post # noted.


Post #2......The beginning of the six "Super-Prints"

Post #4......SOVEREIGN phantom "350/460" series (apple green cards)

Post #5......350/460 series backs identified

Post #8......350/460 series mutually-exclusive cards

Post #22.....T206 Plank mystery

Post #25.....T206 DRUM's...."A-B-C-D" connection

Post #26.....A-B-C-D connection expanded

Post #28.....1910 COUPON (T213-1) sub-set

Post #30.....Ty Cobb / Ty Cobb back

Post #31.....T206 Checklists....plus 1910 COUPON, T215-1 and Ty Cobb/Ty Cobb

Posts #33 & 34.....Richard Russell's unique T206 collection

Posts #35 - 36 & 38.....Exclusive 12 group (460-only series)

Post #39.....AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 No Frame subjects = DRUM subjects

Posts #44 & 48.....Collecting T206 sets....tell us your story's

Post #54.....T206 all-PIEDMONT set

Post #65......SOVEREIGN set story

Post #69......SWEET CAPORAL, Factory #30 set story

Posts #72 & 74......AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 adventure

Posts #76 - 77......T206 cards RE-FRONTED (or re-backed)....FAKE's !

Post #93.....T206 "Proofs"

Post #96.....UZIT checklist

Post #97.....Spring of 1911....T206 era ends....the start of the "Golden era" begins

Post #98.....ATC Factory's associated with the White-Bordered cards (1909 - 1911)

Posts #101 & 106.....BROAD LEAF 460 checklist

Post #107.....Hobby greats....Frank Nagy and Bill Heitman

Post #108.....CAROLINA BRIGHTS checklist

Post #124.....PIEDMONT 460, Factory #42 checklist

Posts #128 - 131.....Why are Connie Mack, Jack Coombs, Shoeless Joe Jackson, Smoky Joe Wood missing in the T206 set ?

Posts #134 & 138.....Timeline of the T206 POLAR BEAR cards

Post #144.....T206 OLD MILL (Major League series) cards

Post #146..... T206 OLD MILL Southern League cards

Post #161.....Southern League cards (continued)

Post #162.....T206 Southern Leaguers Brown OLD MILL cards

Post #171.....The mysterious T206 brown LENOX cards

Post #181.....SWEET CAPORAL 460, Factory #30 backs (w/o Factory #42 overprint)

Post #190.....El Principe de Gales T206 cards

Post #196.....SWEET CAPORAL 350-460, Factory #42 overprint cards

Post #198.....Regional source of the Elite 11 cards

Posts #201 >> 227.....Show-n-tell us of your favorite T206's

Posts #231 >> 248.....Show-n-tell us of your T206 Run(s)

Posts #263 >> 276.....T206 color printing errors......let's see some of these interesting T206's

Posts #282 >> 294.....The mysterious nature of the Red HINDU cards

Posts #302 >> 316.....Show-n-tell us of your MAGIE cards

Posts #328 >> 333.....T206 150-only subjects......

Posts #334 >> 346.....T206 TRIVIA QUIZ....1st correct answer wins T206

Posts #353 >> 358.....PIEDMONT set structure & checklist

Posts #360 >> 366.....T206 TRIVIA QUIZ....1st correct answer wins T206

Post #368.....Reminiscing about T206's in 2005

Post #378.....Remembering Jantz Morey

Posts #379 >> 385.....T206 TRIVIA QUIZ....1st correct answer wins T206

Posts #386 >> 402.....T206 printed sheet structure

Posts #405 >> 440.....Show us your BROAD LEAF 350 cards

Posts #441 >> 450.....Comparable printing patterns in T205's

Posts #453 >> 467.....Guess the price of a near complete T206 set

Posts #469 >> 470.....Guess the selling price of a COMPLETE SOVEREIGN set

Posts #471 >> 474.....Guess selling price of a near complete PIEDMONT set

Posts #476 >> 479.....Guess selling price of a complete SWEET CAP, F#30 set

Posts #481 >> 515.....Show-n-Tell us of your T206 "finds"

Posts #516 >> 536....."Bang the DRUM Slowly" while showing us your DRUM cards

Posts #537 >> 551.....Guess how many Demmitt & O'Hara St Louis cards exist ?

Posts #553 >> 554.....FYI: T206 rosters of the 16 Major League teams

Posts #561 >> 570.....FYI: T206 rosters of the 16 Major League teams

Posts #571 >> 572.....FYI: 350 Series Minor Leaguer's checklist and trivia

Posts #573 >> 573.....T206 Southern League cards illustrated

Posts #574 >> 579.....T206 "Monster" obsession ? ....Check-out this one !

Posts #580 >> 597.....Do the T215-1 cards belong in the T206 set ?

Posts #598 >> 600.....Any guesses why no CHESTERFIELD or LUCKY STRIKE T-cards ?

Posts #601 >> 603.....Any guesses why no CHESTERFIELD or LUCKY STRIKE T-cards ?

Posts #605 >> 621.....the TOLSTOI story

Posts #622 >> 623.....Meet me at Philly, we can Talk T206's

Posts #624 >> 635.....CYCLE 460 checklist

Posts #636 >> 650.....The "MONSTER" Master Set achievement

Posts #651 >> 664.....The "MONSTER" Master Set achievement

Posts #665 >> 669.....UPGRADING T206 cards

Posts #671 >> 674.....And then, there are times to down-grade your T206's

Posts #675 >> 692.....Black LENOX checklist

Posts #693 >> 697.....Check-out Jamie B's multi-brand T206 card

Posts #698 >> 700.....Revisting the mysterious Ty Cobb card with TY COBB back

Posts #701 >> 713.....Reprising the Ty Cobb / TY COBB card debate

Posts #714 >> 726.....CYCLE 350 checklist..... where have all the CYCLE 350 cards gone ?

Posts #727 >> 741.....the enigmatic Lajoie (with bat)..... Post your inputs and/or cards

Posts #742 >> 750.....The elusive ELITE 11....show them, if you have them

Posts #751 >> 760.....The elusive ELITE 11....show them, if you have them

Posts #761 >> 800.....How do you collect T206's: Graded or Ungraded ?...show us your cards

Posts #801 >> 821.....How do you collect T206's: Graded or Ungraded ?...show us your cards

Posts #824 >> 832.....Possible sources of the T206 Wagner cards

Posts #833 >> 850.....T206 BLANK-BACKS...if you have them, post them here

Posts #851 >> 852.....T206 BLANK-BACKS...if you have them, post them here


In this thread, I've tried to present some very complex aspects of the Series structure of the T206 set in a style which is understandable to most of the T206 collectors.
However, if not clear, don't be shy about asking questions. Post your questions on this thread. Or, email me directly with your questions.... tedzan11@comcast.net
In either event, I will gladly do my best to provide you clear and meaningful answer(s).


TED Z
.

Last edited by tedzan; 10-09-2019 at 08:42 PM. Reason: Updated INDEX.
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  #802  
Old 08-04-2019, 10:57 AM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
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Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pennsylvania & Maine
Posts: 7,687
Default T206 REFERENCE...How do you collect T206's: Graded or Ungraded ?...show us your cards

* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *

. . . .


Quote:
Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie View Post
70/74 of AB460 is a great run so far. Good luck finding the last 4...Here are a couple from this series, an ex12 Devore and a Fred Payne... I don't really know why they are labeling the Chance batting trimmed. Looks okay to me.

Hi Rob

It's futile to try and understood why PSA grades AB 460 cards as "trimmed". And DITTO for SGC....when I acquired this Jennings card (circa 2012)
it had been graded an "A". And, that was just fine with me, as it was A-ffordable.

.




I cracked it open and submitted it back to SGC, and this time it came back a "60". So, both of these two TPG's really don't know how to grade
these AB 460 cards.







Incidentally,

I just returned home from the National. The Chicago Show is always absolutely the best. I had a good Show, sold a lot of cards, including several
T206 Red HINDU cards.

However, the highlight of the Show for me was all you Net54 guys who stopped by to have some really interesting T206 discussions.

Thanks, Guys


TED Z
.
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  #803  
Old 08-06-2019, 08:33 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
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Join Date: Apr 2009
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Posts: 7,687
Default T206 REFERENCE...How do you collect T206's: Graded or Ungraded ?...show us your cards

* * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *






At the National, five Net54 "readers" (these guys don't post) visited with me at my booth and we had some interesting conversations regarding their T206 collections.

Four of these guys strictly collect UNGRADED T206's.

One collects only GRADED.

And a regular Net54er, Chris R, whose 520-card set is a combination of GRADED and UNGRADED.


So, here is the latest tally...…

We now have 9 guys whose T206 cards are strictly UNGRADED.

Three who collect only GRADED T206's.

Four whose collections are a mixture of both GRADED and UNGRADED T206's.

And, one that is too early to tell (Hi Leon).


Although this is a small informal survey; nevertheless, it somewhat reflects a trend. Perhaps, more T206 collectors will chime in here with their Show-n-Tell stories.



TED Z
.

Last edited by tedzan; 08-07-2019 at 02:57 PM. Reason: Added information.
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  #804  
Old 08-06-2019, 11:01 PM
rommesc rommesc is offline
Chris R
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Hi Ted,
Not sure if I was included in the tally on how T206s are collected, but my 520 set is a combination of graded and raw. The graded cards were bought that way and left in the slabs.

Thank you for taking the time to talk at The National. The things I look forward to the most at The National are catching up with fellow collectors and meeting new ones.

Take care,
Chris
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  #805  
Old 08-07-2019, 09:11 AM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
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Posts: 7,687
Default T206 REFERENCE...How do you collect T206's: Graded or Ungraded ?...show us your cards

Quote:
Originally Posted by rommesc View Post
Hi Ted,
Not sure if I was included in the tally on how T206’s are collected, but my 520 set is a combination of graded and raw. The graded cards were bought that way and left in the slabs.

Thank you for taking the time to talk at The National. The things I look forward to the most at The National are catching up with fellow collectors and meeting new ones.

Take care,
Chris

Hi Chris

You were included. I have modified my Post #803 to mention your specific input. It's always great "Talkin' T206's" with you.


TED Z
.

Last edited by tedzan; 08-07-2019 at 03:00 PM. Reason: Corrected typo.
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  #806  
Old 08-07-2019, 08:52 PM
Rich Falvo Rich Falvo is offline
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Location: RI
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
Hi Rich

Nice assortment of CYCLE 350 cards.

Thanks for displaying them.


TED Z
.
Hi Ted...Back to the Cycle discussion for an update...I added a Shaw. The Lavender to complete the set will be very difficult.

Cycle Composite.jpg
__________________
Looking for most Cycle, EPDG, American Beauty or Tolstoi backs for Providence players.

Successful transactions with Luke, frankbmd, Dougscats, Baseball*Collectibles, Thromdog, Lug-nut, Ronnie73, cammb
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  #807  
Old 08-08-2019, 07:01 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
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Join Date: Apr 2009
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Posts: 7,687
Default T206 REFERENCE...How do you collect T206's: Graded or Ungraded ?...show us your cards

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Falvo View Post
Hi Ted...Back to the Cycle discussion for an update...I added a Shaw. The Lavender to complete the set will be very difficult.

Attachment 361615
Hi Rich

Congratulations on nearing completion with your Providence guys with CYCLE 350 backs.

Are you close to completing the AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 run with the Providence cards ?


TED Z
.
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  #808  
Old 08-09-2019, 03:38 PM
Rich Falvo Rich Falvo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
Hi Rich

Congratulations on nearing completion with your Providence guys with CYCLE 350 backs.

Are you close to completing the AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 run with the Providence cards ?


TED Z
.
Thanks, Ted. No, the ABs have proven more difficult. I think I've got Hoffman, Lavender, and Phelan. The only other I've seen was Moran but I was too slow to nab it.
__________________
Looking for most Cycle, EPDG, American Beauty or Tolstoi backs for Providence players.

Successful transactions with Luke, frankbmd, Dougscats, Baseball*Collectibles, Thromdog, Lug-nut, Ronnie73, cammb
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  #809  
Old 08-09-2019, 06:55 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
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Join Date: Apr 2009
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Default T206 REFERENCE...How do you collect T206's: Graded or Ungraded ?...show us your cards

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Falvo View Post
Thanks, Ted. No, the ABs have proven more difficult. I think I've got Hoffman, Lavender, and Phelan. The only other I've seen was Moran but I was too slow to nab it.

Hi Rich

I have a number of AMERICAN BEAUTY 350's. When I get home tonite, I'll sort thru them looking for any of the other five Providence players ?


TED Z
.
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  #810  
Old 08-11-2019, 05:15 AM
Ronnie73 Ronnie73 is offline
Ron Kornacki
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It's so interesting all the different ways everyone collects this set, including if they are graded or not. Seeing that this thread is already 800+ posts, I thought it would be fun to go back and read the first page. I found one of my posts from a little over 2 years ago. It's interesting to see how my numbers have changed since then. I even believed that a certain "No Print" card existed even though no one had ever seen one and I actually ended up finding it. Thanks Ted for starting this thread and thanks to everyone that contributes to it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronnie73 View Post
I got somewhat of a late start on my T206 collection. I didn't get serious about the cards and the set until 2010. Before that, I spent time collecting post-war cards, coins, stamps, and comic books from 1982 to 2009. I had a small number of T206's before really being interested in them. All low grade commons. I don't really count them as the start. My start and what I still call my first T206 set purchase in 2010 was a Hooks Wiltse Pitching. I remember scanning the pages of ebay looking for something special to officially start my set. Viewing the scans of the fronts & backs and looking for hidden gems. Then I found it. Wiltse Pitching PSA 2 with a blurry scan of the Piedmont 350-460 back. Even with the blurry scan, I could tell the factory line was longer (factory 42) than all the other Piedmont backs. So I hit the Buy It Now for $44.95 and have been hooked ever since. My first 5 purchases over the first month consisted of four Piedmont 42's and a Bob Groom Tolstoi Back. In my second month on my ninth purchase, I bought a Bob Groom Polar Bear. Nine cards in and i'm playing with the idea of a Front/Back combo set. I'm currently at 1249 different Front/Back combo's and that number has no Piedmont's except for Factory 42's and no Sweet Caporals. Within the 1249 cards, I'm ten cards away from a 520 set. The only complete back sub-set within the 1249 is the Old Mill SL set. I'm 5 away from a Sovereign 460 set, 3 being super prints and 2 others. I'm 40 away from a Polar Bear set and have the Demmitt St Louis. One sub-set I have that I don't count in my 1249 different cards is the Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 30 "No Print" Scraps, 27 different cards including Cobb Bat Off. When these were listed on ebay, only 27 different cards showed up even though I believe it is a 28 card set. I believe this is the most complete set intact. I also know David Hall has a decent amount of the set too but don't know which ones he's missing. All I can say is its been a fun 7 years since starting this set and I owe Net54 and the experts for much of it. Thank you.
__________________
Ron - Uncle Nacki

T206 Master Monster Front/Back Set Collector - www.youtube.com/unclenacki
T206 Basic "The Monster" Set 514/524
T206 Advanced "Master Monster" Front/Back Set ????/5254
COMPLETE T206 BACK SUBSETS
Old Mill Southern Leagues - Black Ink 48/48
Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 30 Full Color "No Prints" 28/28
NEAR COMPLETE T206 BACK SUBSETS
Polar Bear 245/250
Sovereign 460 50/52
Sweet Caporal 150 Factory 649 Overprint 31/34
Piedmont 350 "Elite 11" 9/11

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  #811  
Old 08-11-2019, 05:20 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
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Default T206 REFERENCE...How do you collect T206's: Graded or Ungraded ?...show us your cards

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronnie73 View Post
I got somewhat of a late start on my T206 collection. I didn't get serious about the cards and the set until 2010. Before that, I spent time collecting post-war cards, coins, stamps, and comic books from 1982 to 2009. I had a small number of T206's before really being interested in them. All low grade commons. I don't really count them as the start. My start and what I still call my first T206 set purchase in 2010 was a Hooks Wiltse Pitching. I remember scanning the pages of ebay looking for something special to officially start my set. Viewing the scans of the fronts & backs and looking for hidden gems. Then I found it. Wiltse Pitching PSA 2 with a blurry scan of the Piedmont 350-460 back. Even with the blurry scan, I could tell the factory line was longer (factory 42) than all the other Piedmont backs. So I hit the Buy It Now for $44.95 and have been hooked ever since. My first 5 purchases over the first month consisted of four Piedmont 42's and a Bob Groom Tolstoi Back. In my second month on my ninth purchase, I bought a Bob Groom Polar Bear. Nine cards in and i'm playing with the idea of a Front/Back combo set. I'm currently at 1249 different Front/Back combo's and that number has no Piedmont's except for Factory 42's and no Sweet Caporals. Within the 1249 cards, I'm ten cards away from a 520 set. The only complete back sub-set within the 1249 is the Old Mill SL set. I'm 5 away from a Sovereign 460 set, 3 being super prints and 2 others. I'm 40 away from a Polar Bear set and have the Demmitt St Louis. One sub-set I have that I don't count in my 1249 different cards is the Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 30 "No Print" Scraps, 27 different cards including Cobb Bat Off. When these were listed on ebay, only 27 different cards showed up even though I believe it is a 28 card set. I believe this is the most complete set intact. I also know David Hall has a decent amount of the set too but don't know which ones he's missing. All I can say is its been a fun 7 years since starting this set and I owe Net54 and the experts for much of it. Thank you.

Hi Ron

Interesting story, thanks for posting it. And, pardon me if I take some liberty in augmenting this comment of your's......"I found it. Hooks Wiltse Pitching PSA 2 with a blurry scan
of the Piedmont 350-460 back. Even with the blurry scan, I could tell the factory line was longer (factory 42) than all the other Piedmont backs. So I hit the Buy It Now for $44.95
and have been hooked
"...

Speaking about the Wiltse (pitching) card, how many of you T206 "dudes" are aware that this card has a unique feature ? The Wiltse (pitching) card's caption is unique in that it's
missing a DOT after the Y in "N. Y."
I have checked out my Wiltse cards [AMERICAN BEAUTY 460, PIEDMONT 350-460, SOVEREIGN 350, SWEET CAPORAL 350 (Factory #30) and UZIT].the DOT is omitted on all of
them. Therefore, I don't think we can call this a "variation". I have not seen this type of DOT omission on any other T206 captons with "N. Y."


.





TED Z
.

Last edited by tedzan; 08-11-2019 at 07:47 PM. Reason: Corrected typo.
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  #812  
Old 08-12-2019, 10:10 AM
Ronnie73 Ronnie73 is offline
Ron Kornacki
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Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Connecticut
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
Hi Ron

Interesting story, thanks for posting it. And, pardon me if I take some liberty in augmenting this comment of your's......"I found it. Hooks Wiltse Pitching PSA 2 with a blurry scan
of the Piedmont 350-460 back. Even with the blurry scan, I could tell the factory line was longer (factory 42) than all the other Piedmont backs. So I hit the Buy It Now for $44.95
and have been hooked
"...

Speaking about the Wiltse (pitching) card, how many of you T206 "dudes" are aware that this card has a unique feature ? The Wiltse (pitching) card's caption is unique in that it's
missing a DOT after the Y in "N. Y."
I have checked out my Wiltse cards [AMERICAN BEAUTY 460, PIEDMONT 350-460, SOVEREIGN 350, SWEET CAPORAL 350 (Factory #30) and UZIT].the DOT is omitted on all of
them. Therefore, I don't think we can call this a "variation". I have not seen this type of DOT omission on any other T206 captons with "N. Y."

TED Z
.
Hi Ted, Hooked lol yup! I have 7 different Wiltse backs and will check them in a few weeks when I have the cards out again. It would be interesting to find one.
__________________
Ron - Uncle Nacki

T206 Master Monster Front/Back Set Collector - www.youtube.com/unclenacki
T206 Basic "The Monster" Set 514/524
T206 Advanced "Master Monster" Front/Back Set ????/5254
COMPLETE T206 BACK SUBSETS
Old Mill Southern Leagues - Black Ink 48/48
Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 30 Full Color "No Prints" 28/28
NEAR COMPLETE T206 BACK SUBSETS
Polar Bear 245/250
Sovereign 460 50/52
Sweet Caporal 150 Factory 649 Overprint 31/34
Piedmont 350 "Elite 11" 9/11

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  #813  
Old 08-12-2019, 07:21 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
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Default T206 REFERENCE...How do you collect T206's: Graded or Ungraded ?...show us your cards

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronnie73 View Post
Hi Ted, Hooked lol yup! I have 7 different Wiltse backs and will check them in a few weeks when I have the cards out again. It would be interesting to find one.
Hi Ron

This Wiltse card was printed with 19 (or 20 ) different T206 backs. I have checked-out 17 cards of Wiltse with as many as 17 different T-brands. And all 17
of these Wiltse's are missing the DOT following the "Y" on the front.
And this is the way it should be, as we have hypothesized that the Fronts were first pre-printed on sheets which were hung up to dry. Then, as the various
Tobacco Factories ordered cards, American Lithographic printed the respective brands on the Backs of the T206's. And shipped to their respective Factories.


TED Z
.
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  #814  
Old 08-15-2019, 10:27 AM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
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Default T206 REFERENCE...How do you collect T206's: Graded or Ungraded ?...show us your cards

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronnie73 View Post
It's so interesting all the different ways everyone collects this set, including if they are graded or not. Seeing that this thread is already 800+ posts, I thought it would be fun to go back and read the first page. I found one of my posts from a little over 2 years ago. It's interesting to see how my numbers have changed since then.
I even believed that a certain "No Print" card existed even though no one had ever seen one and I actually ended up finding it.

Thanks Ted for starting this thread and thanks to everyone that contributes to it.

Hi Ron

I think the "NoPrint" you are referring to is the Lajoie with SWEET CAP 350-460, Fac. #30. A great find on your part.

And thanks for the kind words....plus all the very meaningful stuff you have posted in this thread these past 2 years.



. .


TED Z
.
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  #815  
Old 08-15-2019, 03:09 PM
Ronnie73 Ronnie73 is offline
Ron Kornacki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
Hi Ron

I think the "NoPrint" you are referring to is the Lajoie with SWEET CAP 350-460, Fac. #30. A great find on your part.

And thanks for the kind words....plus all the very meaningful stuff you have posted in this thread these past 2 years.



. .


TED Z
.

Hi Ted, yes the Lajoie. Has another one been found that I'm not aware of? I actually stopped looking after I found mine.
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T206 Basic "The Monster" Set 514/524
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COMPLETE T206 BACK SUBSETS
Old Mill Southern Leagues - Black Ink 48/48
Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 30 Full Color "No Prints" 28/28
NEAR COMPLETE T206 BACK SUBSETS
Polar Bear 245/250
Sovereign 460 50/52
Sweet Caporal 150 Factory 649 Overprint 31/34
Piedmont 350 "Elite 11" 9/11

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Old 08-25-2019, 08:07 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronnie73 View Post
Hi Ted, yes the Lajoie. Has another one been found that I'm not aware of? I actually stopped looking after I found mine.
Hi Ron,

Sorry for the delayed response to your question.

It's my understanding that David Hall's master set includes all 28 - SWEET CAP 350-460, Factory #30 "no-print" cards. So, yes another Lajoie exists.


TED Z
.

Last edited by tedzan; 08-25-2019 at 09:05 PM. Reason: Corrected typo.
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  #817  
Old 08-29-2019, 02:07 AM
Ronnie73 Ronnie73 is offline
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Just curious as to how many T206 collectors actually spend a lot of their time looking for new print group patterns? I'm always trying to find patterns and cards that don't fit the patterns. Just like today, I started with a blank sheet and wanted to find anything odd about Sweet Caporal Factory 25's. Many probably start at the beginning but I always start in the middle. I start with 350's and then look at what's missing from the 150's and the 460's. I tend to find more patterns by doing it this way. Interestingly, I found that 12 cards were missing from print group 4. After I listed them together, the list looked very familiar. It was the same cards as the 12 that are difficult in Old Mill's and Easier in Hindu's. Although many of us already know about these 12 cards, it's still interesting to start with a blank page and discover how we all got to where we are currently. There are 457 different front Sweet Caporal Factory 25's out of 524 cards.
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T206 Basic "The Monster" Set 514/524
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Old Mill Southern Leagues - Black Ink 48/48
Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 30 Full Color "No Prints" 28/28
NEAR COMPLETE T206 BACK SUBSETS
Polar Bear 245/250
Sovereign 460 50/52
Sweet Caporal 150 Factory 649 Overprint 31/34
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  #818  
Old 08-29-2019, 11:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronnie73 View Post
Just curious as to how many T206 collectors actually spend a lot of their time looking for new print group patterns? I'm always trying to find patterns and cards that don't fit the patterns. Just like today, I started with a blank sheet and wanted to find anything odd about Sweet Caporal Factory 25's. Many probably start at the beginning but I always start in the middle. I start with 350's and then look at what's missing from the 150's and the 460's. I tend to find more patterns by doing it this way. Interestingly, I found that 12 cards were missing from print group 4. After I listed them together, the list looked very familiar. It was the same cards as the 12 that are difficult in Old Mill's and Easier in Hindu's. Although many of us already know about these 12 cards, it's still interesting to start with a blank page and discover how we all got to where we are currently. There are 457 different front Sweet Caporal Factory 25's out of 524 cards.
Is one of the 12 Merkle?
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  #819  
Old 08-29-2019, 12:02 PM
Ronnie73 Ronnie73 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean View Post
Is one of the 12 Merkle?
Crandall, Doc (Portrait With Cap)
DeVore, Josh
Duffy, Hugh
Ford, Russ
Gandil, Chick
Geyer, Rube
Hummel, John
McGraw, John (Glove At Hip)
Pfeffer, Francis
Sheckard, Jimmy (Glove Showing)
Tannehill, Lee (Tannehill On Front)
Wheat, Zack
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T206 Basic "The Monster" Set 514/524
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COMPLETE T206 BACK SUBSETS
Old Mill Southern Leagues - Black Ink 48/48
Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 30 Full Color "No Prints" 28/28
NEAR COMPLETE T206 BACK SUBSETS
Polar Bear 245/250
Sovereign 460 50/52
Sweet Caporal 150 Factory 649 Overprint 31/34
Piedmont 350 "Elite 11" 9/11

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Old 08-29-2019, 12:32 PM
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Oh, you mean the ones that are easier to find with the Red Hindu backs. Okay, I get it now.
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  #821  
Old 08-29-2019, 06:01 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Is one of the 12 Merkle?
Sean

I'm surprised....for you know Merkle is not one of Exclusive 12 guys in the 460-only Series.

Your amazing Merkle run does NOT have a red HINDU card. Nor will it ever.....since the only
subjects in the 460-only Series printed with red HINDU backs are the Exclusive 12 subjects.

TED Z
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  #822  
Old 09-08-2019, 03:58 AM
Ronnie73 Ronnie73 is offline
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Wether your just getting started with collecting T206's or you've been collecting for many years, we can all agree that there are many ways to collect the Monster. Many collectors don't like T206's because they are not rare. Sorry but it's true. There are always many to choose from when making a purchase. There are probably between 100 and 200 complete 520 sets in collections. These are sets with any advertisement backs but usually Piedmont and Sweet Caporal which are most common.

So here's where it gets interesting. A 520 card set can go from common to difficult just by eliminating Piedmont and Sweet Caporal backs and chasing the more difficult backs. There may be a few of these specialty sets already completed and a small group of other collectors currently working on them.

Now, say you want to go from difficult to extremely rare. Lets say you eliminate Piedmont, Sweet Caporal, Polar Bear, Old Mill, and Sovereign. Well 520 cards is not possible. There are 36 cards that would be missing from your set according to T206resourse. There are also 88 cards where Hindu Brown is your only choice. Here is the list of the missing 36 cards. Maybe some of these cards can be found and removed from this list.

Southern League
Jack Bastian
Bill Hart
Jimmy Hart
Frank King
Harry Lentz
Molly Miller
Al Orth
Charles Seitz
Carlos Smith
Dolly Stark
Tony Thebo
Foley White

Polar Bear Only
Ray Demmitt St. Louis
Bill O'Hara St. Louis

EPDG Possible but not confirmed
George Brown Washington
Ty Cobb Bat On Shoulder
Ty Cobb Portrait - Green
Wid Conroy Fielding
Sam Crawford Throwing
Dode Criss
Bill Dahlen Brooklyn
Jiggs Donohue
Kid Elberfeld Portrait - Washington
Ed Hahn
Fred Jacklitsch
Red Kleinow NY With Bat
John McGraw Finger In Air
Danny Murphy Throwing
Simon Nicholls Hands On Knees
Harry Niles
Rube Oldring Fielding
Frank Smith Chicago - F. Smith
Jake Stahl No Glove Shows
Rube Waddell Throwing
Jimmy Williams

Tolstoi Possible but not confirmed
Bill O'Hara New York

So bottom line, the question is, how common are T206's? The answer: It all depends on how you collect them. For those who want to know my current numbers, here they are.

No Piedmont or Sweet Caporal 494/520
No Piedmont, Sweet Caporal, Polar Bear, Old Mill, or Sovereign 264/484
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T206 Basic "The Monster" Set 514/524
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COMPLETE T206 BACK SUBSETS
Old Mill Southern Leagues - Black Ink 48/48
Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 30 Full Color "No Prints" 28/28
NEAR COMPLETE T206 BACK SUBSETS
Polar Bear 245/250
Sovereign 460 50/52
Sweet Caporal 150 Factory 649 Overprint 31/34
Piedmont 350 "Elite 11" 9/11

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Old 09-08-2019, 06:55 AM
t206kid t206kid is offline
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Great post by Ron. There are so many different ways to parse the set. I'll post my progress...

No Piedmont or Sweet Caporal 431/520
No Piedmont, Sweet Caporal, Polar Bear, Old Mill, or Sovereign 184/484

I think it's also worth noting removing PB/OM/Sov from the set eliminates some of the best cards in the set! Green Cobb and Bat on, Waddell throwing, and Elberfeld.

Plus, there are a whole host of cards where a Sovereign 150 is actually more difficult than a Hindu. On those, I actually prefer a Sov150 over the Hindu.

Also, I've built this from the top to the bottom. So my first goal was tackling the expensive and difficult HOF/variations, and now I'm on the hunt for the various commons I need.
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File Type: jpg 4b. Greens.jpg (76.4 KB, 436 views)

Last edited by t206kid; 09-08-2019 at 07:24 AM.
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  #824  
Old 09-10-2019, 12:20 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Default REFERENCE / Reflections....Possible sources of the T206 Wagner cards..

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In conversations throughout the years with collectors who own (or have owned) the T206 Honus Wagner card, it's interesting to find out that a fair number of these cards
have originated from the NY - Long Island area.
The majority of the Wagner cards are SWEET CAPORAL 150, Factory #25. Also, some of them are SWEET CAPORAL 150, Factory #30. And, a handful are PIEDMONT 150.
Conventional thinking is that none of the PIEDMONT Wagner's were inserted in Cigarette packs. Indeed, the PSA Wagner was cut from an uncut sheet (or panel). I bring
up this subject because I have a theory..... OH NO ! ..Another theory by Ted Z

Consider this....Joseph Palmer Knapp, the founder of the American Lithographic Company (ALC), had a vacation home in Suffolk County, Long Island (NY). Therefore, I'm
suggesting...when Wagner forced ATC to discontinue printing his image, ALC was in the process of printing up many 150 Series cards (which included Wagner and Plank).
So what happened to all the Wagner cards (approx. 75 - 90 exist) ? Were they dis-card-ed (excuse the pun) by ALC ? Or perhaps, Mr. Knapp took a bunch of them out to
Long Island and handed them out to his children, and their friends or neighbors. If so, these Wagner's eventually found they way into NY residents' collections.

Let's hear of your experiences, or thoughts, regarding the T206 Wagner card ?





TED Z
.
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  #825  
Old 09-10-2019, 02:14 PM
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Ted, I took a quick look at the psa pop report...

Cy Young port...sc 150/25.....6
Bobby Wallace...sc 150/25.....5
Honus Wagner...sc 150/25.....4

Young sc 150/30 .... 42
Wallace sc 150/30.... 27
Wagner sc 150/30.... 2

It's not a scientific sample, but it's interesting that the 2 random hofers I picked compare almost equally for factory 25, but not factory 30.
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  #826  
Old 09-10-2019, 04:13 PM
Ronnie73 Ronnie73 is offline
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Ted, that's an interesting thought. If it's true, then finding a Wagner in a pack would have been even more difficult than thought. I'm still saving up for a Wagner of my own. Time to go door to door in Long Island.
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T206 Basic "The Monster" Set 514/524
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COMPLETE T206 BACK SUBSETS
Old Mill Southern Leagues - Black Ink 48/48
Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 30 Full Color "No Prints" 28/28
NEAR COMPLETE T206 BACK SUBSETS
Polar Bear 245/250
Sovereign 460 50/52
Sweet Caporal 150 Factory 649 Overprint 31/34
Piedmont 350 "Elite 11" 9/11

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  #827  
Old 09-10-2019, 04:27 PM
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Ted, just curious, what premium (if any), do you place on a Piedmont-backed Wagner or Plank vs the more common Sweet Caporal backs? When I say “premium”, I mean in a general sense- value, prestige, etc. How many Piedmont Wagners and Planks are there?

Or better General question - do you think the back “matters” when it comes to Wagner and Plank, and if so, how much so with the much rarer Piedmont (which probably all should be A) vs Sweet Cap?

Last edited by Rhotchkiss; 09-10-2019 at 04:59 PM.
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  #828  
Old 09-10-2019, 05:11 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Default T206 REFERENCE / Reflections....Possible sources of the T206 Wagner cards

Hi Ryan

Generally speaking....I don't think most T206 collectors care which back is on a Wagner or Plank, they are just happy to get one (or both) of these cards.

Now, "dudes" like me would prefer to have the PIEDMONT version of these two T206 cards (so, I can complete my all - PIEDMONT set).

Besides, the big $$$$$$ associated with these two T206's is way above my "pay-grade".

I'm content with my SWEET CAP 150, Factory #30 Eddie Plank (graded "A").

"A" for Awesome, and Affordable



TED Z
.
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  #829  
Old 09-10-2019, 06:22 PM
Ronnie73 Ronnie73 is offline
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I do remember a few years back, that a Plank Piedmont was graded with a numerical grade. I questioned then if it should have been graded that way. As far as what I'd prefer when building a set, I'd like a Factory 25 over a Factory 30.
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T206 Basic "The Monster" Set 514/524
T206 Advanced "Master Monster" Front/Back Set ????/5254
COMPLETE T206 BACK SUBSETS
Old Mill Southern Leagues - Black Ink 48/48
Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 30 Full Color "No Prints" 28/28
NEAR COMPLETE T206 BACK SUBSETS
Polar Bear 245/250
Sovereign 460 50/52
Sweet Caporal 150 Factory 649 Overprint 31/34
Piedmont 350 "Elite 11" 9/11

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Old 09-11-2019, 07:22 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Default T206 REFERENCE / Reflections....Possible sources of the T206 Wagner cards..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronnie73 View Post
I do remember a few years back, that a Plank Piedmont was graded with a numerical grade. I questioned then if it should have been graded that way. As far as what I'd prefer when building a set, I'd like a Factory 25 over a Factory 30.

Ron

About 8 (or so) years ago there was a PIEDMONT 150 Plank graded by SGC. I think they graded it SGC 70.

Like you, I question the validity of that grade on that Plank.


TED Z
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  #831  
Old 09-11-2019, 09:27 PM
Rich Falvo Rich Falvo is offline
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The Piedmont Plank SGC 70 went for $330K in 2012.

http://www.t206museum.com/page/periodical_119.html
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  #832  
Old 09-11-2019, 11:23 PM
Ronnie73 Ronnie73 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Falvo View Post
The Piedmont Plank SGC 70 went for $330K in 2012.

http://www.t206museum.com/page/periodical_119.html
That's the one I remember. Wow, 7.5 years ago. Didn't seem that long ago. I found the two original posts to that particular Piedmont Plank. Interesting trip back in time but after reading them again, sadly not much has changed in the hobby.

Dan Mckee 03/20/2012 Post http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=149071

Ted Zanidakis 03/27/2012 Follow-up Post http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=149346
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T206 Basic "The Monster" Set 514/524
T206 Advanced "Master Monster" Front/Back Set ????/5254
COMPLETE T206 BACK SUBSETS
Old Mill Southern Leagues - Black Ink 48/48
Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 30 Full Color "No Prints" 28/28
NEAR COMPLETE T206 BACK SUBSETS
Polar Bear 245/250
Sovereign 460 50/52
Sweet Caporal 150 Factory 649 Overprint 31/34
Piedmont 350 "Elite 11" 9/11

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Old 09-16-2019, 06:12 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Default T206 REFERENCE / Reflections...T206 BLANK-BACKS...if you have them, post them here...

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There is no predicting which T206 subjects will be found with no Tobacco advertisement printed on their back. Blank-Back (B-B) T206's are simply a random phenomena.

Needless to say, B-B T206 cards are highly sought after, and big $$$$ are usually paid to acquire these cards.

So, let us see how many Blank-Back (B-B) T206's we can display here. And, perhaps some one will post a B-B HOFer. I have yet to see such a T206. Well, I will start this
show with my B-B......


.


Thanks to Dan McKee for giving me a nice deal on this card.


TED Z
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  #834  
Old 09-16-2019, 06:49 PM
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Here are my 3 blank-backs:

Last edited by Rhotchkiss; 09-16-2019 at 06:50 PM.
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  #835  
Old 09-16-2019, 08:59 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Default T206 REFERENCE / Reflections....T206 BLANK-BACKS....if you have them, post them here

Three blank-back HOFer's.great stuff, Ryan. Thanks for posting them.


TED Z
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  #836  
Old 09-16-2019, 09:02 PM
steve B steve B is offline
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Here are mine, I sold Ellam a few years ago, and have since had the others graded.

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  #837  
Old 09-16-2019, 10:30 PM
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Spoke with PSA recently & asked them about slabbing blank backs, and heard back "We have never processed proofs and the biggest reason is the there are two known varieties that can occur for T206. There are blank back & proofs that are known to hobbyist. There is no definitive way to discern between both of those situations accurately, thus we have never processed both types of items."

Thought that was strange.

Here's my two:
Attached Images
File Type: jpg batch blank f122.jpg (6.9 KB, 241 views)
File Type: jpg batch blank b123.jpg (5.4 KB, 242 views)
File Type: jpg thomas blank f120.jpg (7.2 KB, 245 views)
File Type: jpg thomas blank b121.jpg (5.5 KB, 246 views)
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  #838  
Old 09-17-2019, 12:32 AM
Ronnie73 Ronnie73 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by t206fanatic View Post
Spoke with PSA recently & asked them about slabbing blank backs, and heard back "We have never processed proofs and the biggest reason is the there are two known varieties that can occur for T206. There are blank back & proofs that are known to hobbyist. There is no definitive way to discern between both of those situations accurately, thus we have never processed both types of items."

Thought that was strange.

Here's my two:
That's surprising that PSA would say that. My understanding is if the front looks identical to a normal card, then it's a blank back. If it includes crop marks and/or missing the name, then it's a proof. Seems simple to me.
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T206 Basic "The Monster" Set 514/524
T206 Advanced "Master Monster" Front/Back Set ????/5254
COMPLETE T206 BACK SUBSETS
Old Mill Southern Leagues - Black Ink 48/48
Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 30 Full Color "No Prints" 28/28
NEAR COMPLETE T206 BACK SUBSETS
Polar Bear 245/250
Sovereign 460 50/52
Sweet Caporal 150 Factory 649 Overprint 31/34
Piedmont 350 "Elite 11" 9/11

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  #839  
Old 09-17-2019, 02:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronnie73 View Post
That's surprising that PSA would say that. My understanding is if the front looks identical to a normal card, then it's a blank back. If it includes crop marks and/or missing the name, then it's a proof. Seems simple to me.
agree with you, but they were (for now) firm on their stance.
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  #840  
Old 09-17-2019, 02:42 PM
MVSNYC MVSNYC is offline
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Bizarre response from PSA. Proofs are blank backed and always have crop marks (for the precious alignment of the artwork, hence Proofs typically have very crisp and bold images, as every color pass is aligned perfectly). Some have the player name/team (type 2), and some do not (type 1, often having a slight artwork change from the original).
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Spencer Proof.jpg (32.6 KB, 228 views)
File Type: jpg Spencer Proof B.jpg (77.5 KB, 222 views)

Last edited by MVSNYC; 09-17-2019 at 02:59 PM.
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  #841  
Old 09-17-2019, 07:08 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Default T206 REFERENCE / Reflections...T206 BLANK-BACKS...if you have them, post them here...

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean View Post
Ted, is the OM Brown Mullaney that weird Cy Young multi-strike card that belonged to Leon and now to Jaime? Or has another Mullaney showed up?
Hey Sean,
Six months ago, you asked if there is another Mullaney with a "$trange" back. Well, yes there is....however, this one is blank


. .



TED Z
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  #842  
Old 09-18-2019, 08:01 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Default T206 REFERENCE / Reflections...T206 BLANK-BACKS...if you have them, post them here...

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Here's my Schulte Blank-Back card....although SGC refused to label it as such. When it's out of the plastic, it's obvious that this card is NOT "skinned" (but has a spot
of paper loss in the upper left corner).


.



TED Z
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  #843  
Old 09-20-2019, 04:48 PM
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here's my last remaining Blank. It's actually not blank, but it doesn't have an ad on the back. And I still can't straighten them out.

IMG_1533.jpg

IMG_1534.jpg
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  #844  
Old 09-22-2019, 08:01 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Default T206 REFERENCE / Reflections...T206 BLANK-BACKS...if you have them, post them here...

Neat stuff, thanks for sharing your Blank-Back T206's with us.....Ryan, Steve, Jeff, Mike & Sean.

Perhaps, we will see some more of these B-B T206 cards.

They appear randomly. There is no way of predicting which ones will come out of the woodwork.

TED Z
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  #845  
Old 09-23-2019, 11:15 PM
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David R David R is offline
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Default My blank back

T206 Jake Beckley - this is part of my t206 HOF back run
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File Type: jpg beckleyBBback 001.jpg (75.3 KB, 162 views)
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  #846  
Old 09-28-2019, 09:39 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Default T206 REFERENCE / Reflections...T206 BLANK-BACKS...if you have them, post them here...

* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *






And, here is one more Blank-Back to add to the mix. I don't own this card any more, since I traded it to Chris and Kristin Buckler (Louisville collectors).






Well, this T206 proof raises the tally to 19 blank-back cards posted here. Perhaps, we'll get a 20th B-B posted.



TED Z
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  #847  
Old 09-30-2019, 06:25 PM
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Marslife Marslife is offline
Cliff
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Default BB Snoddy

Here is my BB snoddy, cool card! sorry for the bad pic, lost my key to my display cabinet (high security) :-)

Nice BB's fellas!

Cliff

snoddy.jpg
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  #848  
Old 10-01-2019, 07:55 PM
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Default Dougherty Blank Back

Here's the only one that I own. Still waiting for the guys at T206Resource.com to add it to their confirmed list...

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Old 10-05-2019, 10:22 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
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Default T206 REFERENCE / Reflections...T206 BLANK-BACKS...if you have them, post them here...

Neat stuff, thanks for sharing your Blank-Back T206's with us....David, Cliff, and Tom.


The tally is up to 21 blank-back cards posted here. Perhaps, we'll get a some more B-B posted.


TED Z
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  #850  
Old 10-06-2019, 07:28 PM
JohnP0621 JohnP0621 is offline
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Default Blank back

Here's MY only blank backimage.jpg
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