ethical question

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Suppose the car had a defective transmission when it was sold. Same analysis? Not advocating for any position here, just trying to flesh out the question.

Ok, let's assume the car had a bad transmission at the time of sale. Whether the seller really was unaware or did know and just wanted to make a quick buck, the answer is still the same either way. The car has a warranty - a guarantee - and its up to the owner (the new buyer of the car) to resolve warranty issues with the party that makes the warranty (guarantee). This is the way it works in everyday life. I'm not sure why we look at cards differently.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Ok, let's assume the car had a bad transmission at the time of sale. Whether the seller really was unaware or did know and just wanted to make a quick buck, the answer is still the same either way. The car has a warranty - a guarantee - and its up to the owner (the new buyer of the car) to resolve warranty issues with the party that makes the warranty (guarantee). This is the way it works in everyday life. I'm not sure why we look at cards differently.

Does it work that way in real life? There are lemon laws in many states entitling buyers to return defective vehicles.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Does it work that way in real life? There are lemon laws in many states entitling buyers to return defective vehicles.

True, but only after all warranty claims have been exhausted.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

True, but only after all warranty claims have been exhausted.

So the buyer is not at risk -- either the dealer (as agent for the manufacturer) can fix the defect or the buyer gets his or her money back. In this case, by your reasoning, it's all on the buyer, and if the TPG stiffs him on the guarantee he's out of luck.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

So the buyer is not at risk -- either the dealer (as agent for the manufacturer) can fix the defect or the buyer gets his or her money back. In this case, by your reasoning, it's all on the buyer, and if the TPG stiffs him on the guarantee he's out of luck.

Yes, exactly. He's out of luck. Sorry, but that IS the way it works. If I sell you a car that's still under factory warranty and it breaks down and the dealership decides they're not going to honor their warranty (and this really does happen more often than you think), that isn't 5he sellers fault that the one that made the warranty isn't going to honor their warranty. That's what a civil lawsuit is for, right? When someone won't honor their guarantee?

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Yes, exactly. He's out of luck. Sorry, but that IS the way it works. If I sell you a car that's still under factory warranty and it breaks down and the dealership decides they're not going to honor their warranty (and this really does happen more often than you think), that isn't 5he sellers fault that the one that made the warranty isn't going to honor their warranty. That's what a civil lawsuit is for, right? When someone won't honor their guarantee?

funny you should mention civil lawsuits...there have been no civil lawsuits ....too costly, jurisdiction so far away, not worth it according to members on this board..what choice to they have but just wait ......so why argue all this theory when everyone said lawsuits are last resort because of legal fees and giving the chance to people to pay back the buyers.....everyone is happy apparently because no lawsuits.


i also agree the analogy of the car situation is not comparable......maybe an exclusive PSA dealer.....when you buy a card from a dealer , they say no refunds after 30 days etc...they dont hawk the great PSA guarantee.....car dealers/even used ones. always hawk the great gurantee/warranty as an inducement to sell the vehicle.

[Peter_Spaeth]

It's a bit different because there it's a seller, or at least related party (dealer is acting as agent of manufacturer) warranty. Here, it's a third party guarantee. Which should cover both seller and buyer, assuming the seller didn't submit the doctored card but bought it already doctored. So why is the burden on the buyer not the seller especially if a dealer? It doesn't bother you that under your analysis, a dealer is not standing behind his card?

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It's a bit different because there it's a seller, or at least related party (dealer is acting as agent of manufacturer) warranty. Here, it's a third party guarantee. Which should cover both seller and buyer, assuming the seller didn't submit the doctored card but bought it already doctored. So why is the burden on the buyer not the seller especially if a dealer? It doesn't bother you that under your analysis, a dealer is not standing behind his card?

card Seller is not vouching for a third party PSA ...if the holder was altered an cracked and PSA would not guarantee it thats a different situation.

there are fly by night third party insurers out there. They go bankrupt as well, why would dealer be responsible for the actions of non related third party that hey have no direct interest with.

Crime/fraud is different and last seller has duty to return payment back to innocent buyer..

[vintagetoppsguy]

Peter, if I sold you a card that was PSA graded and was later found out to be doctored and you decided to take me to small claims court, what would the judge say when I told him/her the card has a guarantee by the company that authenticated it? I've never been to a small claims court, but I'd imagine the judge would dismiss the case and tell you to deal with party which made the guarantee. If that's not correct, please let me know.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Peter, if I sold you a card that was PSA graded and was later found out to be doctored and you decided to take me to small claims court, what would the judge say when I told him/her the card has a guarantee by the company that authenticated it? I've never been to a small claims court, but I'd imagine the judge would dismiss the case and tell you to deal with party which made the guarantee. If that's not correct, please let me know.

The judge might also tell you to take the card back because I have a legitimate claim for rescission of the sale based on mutual mistake (the authenticity of the card), and that you can then get recourse against the TPG under the guarantee.

I'm not sure without further analysis whether the guarantee affects whether I have a contract claim against you. I suspect it doesn't. Different situation from a manufacturer warranty where I buy from the dealer subject to the terms of the warranty. Put another way, the TPG guarantee is not part of our contract.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

True, but only after all warranty claims have been exhausted.

In other words, you can't go buy a vehicle (new or used) and have the transmission fail 3 months later and say you want your money back based on the Lemon Law. You have to give them a reasonable opportunity to resolve the issue.

Which actually brings me to another point. Let's say you go buy a pre-owned Chevy from the Ford dealership and the vehicle is still under factory warranty. If a problem arises, do you take that Chevy back to the Ford dealership that sold it to you, or do you go to the Chevy dealership - the ones that made the warranty?

The card purchase works the same way.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Same thing with stolen art when seller who bought the item 30 years ago didnt realize the art was stolen 20 years prior to his purchase and changed hands 5 times...

if the original act was criminal it doesnt matter how many times it changed hands..you dont have clean hands defense

you are arguing a clean hands defense basically...if the action is criminal/fraud you dont get that defense...

its unfair burden on victim to track everyone down....of course the seller who just reimbursed the money can now go after the person that sold him the card ..

[drcy]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

Same thing with stolen art when seller who bought the item 30 years ago didnt realize the art was stolen 20 years prior to his purchase and changed hands 5 times...

if the original act was criminal it doesnt matter how many times it changed hands..you dont have clean hands defense

you are arguing a clean hands defense basically...if the action is criminal/fraud you dont get that defense...

its unfair burden on victim to track everyone down....of course the seller who just reimbursed the money can now go after the person that sold him the card ..

That's a different situation because seller (and and buyer) never legally owned the item. There never was a legal sale.

My opinion is there are different ways of handling the OP's question. If you wanted to refund it you can, but it is also fair to tell the buyer to the TPA. For better or worse, the TPA has set themselves up as guaranteer. Unlike some situations, I don't think one choice is more or less ethical than the other.

Though I've never been keen on auction houses that use the TPA to wash their hands of the issue. Auctions houses are supposed to be experts too.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

In other words, you can't go buy a vehicle (new or used) and have the transmission fail 3 months later and say you want your money back based on the Lemon Law. You have to give them a reasonable opportunity to resolve the issue.

Which actually brings me to another point. Let's say you go buy a pre-owned Chevy from the Ford dealership and the vehicle is still under factory warranty. If a problem arises, do you take that Chevy back to the Ford dealership that sold it to you, or do you go to the Chevy dealership - the ones that made the warranty?

The card purchase works the same way.

Please tell me how selling used cars has anything to do with selling baseball cards. One is regulated and has very specific laws and the other has none. We so need that face palm emoji.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Please tell me how selling used cars has anything to do with selling baseball cards. One is regulated and has very specific laws and the other has none. We so need that face palm emoji.

Thanks Ben, I am so SICK of CAR ANALOGIES. It's Re-TARDED already.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

Thanks Ben, I am so SICK of CAR ANALOGIES. It's Re-TARDED already.

It doesn't matter what analogy you use, you either get it or you don't. You obviously don't, so I'll try one more time. Let's say Im selling a TV on Craigslist and you're the buyer. The TV was purchased at Best Buy 2 years ago and has a 5 year transferable warranty. Upon completion of the sale, I give you all the paperwork and the receipt from Best Buy in the event you need it for a warranty claim. The TV works great for a couple years, but suddenly goes out. Lucky for you, you still have a year left on the warranty. Are you going to call me since I sold it to you, or are you going to deal with Best Buy? This really isn't about a car, a card, a TV or anything else. It's really about understanding how warranties work. Like I said, you either get it or you don't.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Please tell me how selling used cars has anything to do with selling baseball cards. One is regulated and has very specific laws and the other has none. We so need that face palm emoji.

It's similar in that they both offer a guarantee and in the event of a claim, you deal with the company that makes the guarantee.

Yes face palm emoji definitely needed.

[jhs5120]

A similar situation has happened to me.

I bought a Ted Williams signed index card from Heritage (part of a lot), it was pre-certified by PSA. I sent the index card to PSA to encapsulate and they determined it was a fake. I went to PSA to refund me the purchase price, they did, and then ripped up the card.

To me, it's TPG first, seller second.

You're buying an item with a warranty. If it's defective, exercise the warranty. That's why it's there.

[Mark17]

Let's say TPG company XYZ grades a card a 4. At that point, that card "becomes" a XYZ 4. So if an innocent person (someone who is unaware of any alterations/fraud) buys it, they have bought a XYZ 4. If they then sell it, they are selling a correctly described XYZ 4.

So the issue later becomes whether or not the TPG should have graded the card a XYZ 4 in the first place. If a mistake was made at that point, that would be where the responsibility lies.

It's similar to any mis-graded card. If a TPG grades a card a 6 when it should've been a 3, that card will still be honestly and ethically bought and sold as a XYZ 6.

My point is, when company XYZ gives a card a grade, that card is then correctly represented as a card with that grade, and no subsequent seller who is unaware of any fraud involving that card has any responsibility for the grade that card was given.

If I buy a graded card from an honest dealer that later turns out to have been altered, I would not ask or expect the seller to accept a return, because he sold me an accurately described card.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Let's say TPG company XYZ grades a card a 4. At that point, that card "becomes" a XYZ 4. So if an innocent person (someone who is unaware of any alterations/fraud) buys it, they have bought a XYZ 4. If they then sell it, they are selling a correctly described XYZ 4.

So the issue later becomes whether or not the TPG should have graded the card a XYZ 4 in the first place. If a mistake was made at that point, that would be where the responsibility lies.

It's similar to any mis-graded card. If a TPG grades a card a 6 when it should've been a 3, that card will still be honestly and ethically bought and sold as a XYZ 6.

My point is, when company XYZ gives a card a grade, that card is then correctly represented as a card with that grade, and no subsequent seller who is unaware of any fraud involving that card has any responsibility for the grade that card was given.

If I buy a graded card from an honest dealer that later turns out to have been altered, I would not ask or expect the seller to accept a return, because he sold me an accurately described card.

Mark, if there were no TPG guarantees, as in the case of a Beckett card, would you feel the same way? I expect you might but just clarifying thanks.

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Mark, if there were no TPG guarantees, as in the case of a Beckett card, would you feel the same way? I expect you might but just clarifying thanks.

I think if you even have to ask the question, you probably know the answer. I would refund because I would intuitively feel that was the right thing to do. That's just me though.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

I think if you even have to ask the question, you probably know the answer. I would refund because I would intuitively feel that was the right thing to do. That's just me though.

And it may well be just you.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Mark, if there were no TPG guarantees, as in the case of a Beckett card, would you feel the same way? I expect you might but just clarifying thanks.

Peter, it is a good and fair question and my answer would be that while I would not blame the seller for misrepresentation, if I was unhappy with the card (based on the revelation it had been doctored at some point) I may ask if I can return it based on the fact I am not happy with it.

The difference is that if Beckett is grading cards while making no guarantees, then that is not much different than my mailman glancing at a card, shrugging his shoulders, and saying "Looks real to me." In other words I would consider a graded card with no TPG guarantee to be essentially a raw card, and I do think buyers should be able to return raw cards to sellers within a reasonable time frame.