Poll: response to recent PWCC revelations

[Republicaninmass]

There is risk when buying trading cards that can't entirely be avoided and if one thinks that boycotting PWCC reduces their risk significantly that is great but they are wrong.

I'd beg to differ. There is rampant, conclusive, undeniable evidence that cards were specifically sold by PWCC since at least 2017 that were altered by a well known professional card doctor. Even if it increases the risk .0001%, avoiding PWCC reduces that risk. It in fact reduces your risk exponentially in regard to PWCC high eye appeal, stickered, HOF, or high end cards.

[Peter_Spaeth]

It all depends how you do the analysis. David's methodology seems to assume one is buying a randomly selected card. He may be right on that premise but I am not sure it's a meaningful way to look at it. Iif the inquiry is framed as Ted frames it then yes obviously the risk of buying a high end card is at least somewhat higher in PWCC. I would quibble with exponentially though.

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It all depends how you do the analysis. David's methodology seems to assume one is buying a randomly selected card. He may be right on that premise but I am not sure it's a meaningful way to look at it. Iif the inquiry is framed as Ted frames it then yes obviously the risk of buying a high end card is at least somewhat higher in PWCC. I would quibble with exponentially though.

Quite. Exponentially is almost certainly the wrong word (has the risk doubled with each successive month PWCC has been in business? or tripled each year?), but then, I don't see many people other than mathematicians using it correctly these days.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

There is risk when buying trading cards that can't entirely be avoided and if one thinks that boycotting PWCC reduces their risk significantly that is great but they are wrong.

I'd beg to differ. There is rampant, conclusive, undeniable evidence that cards were specifically sold by PWCC since at least 2017 that were altered by a well known professional card doctor. Even if it increases the risk .0001%, avoiding PWCC reduces that risk. It in fact reduces your risk exponentially in regard to PWCC high eye appeal, stickered, HOF, or high end cards.

During this time frame there has been a massive shift in market share. PWCC is by far the largest EBAY auction house and sells immensely more graded cards than anyone. They offer 99 cent auctions on the best cards that come to market. Probstein who one could consider their next closest competitor lists tons of items with high starting prices and while that may protect the seller it certainly isn't as appealing for the buyers.

The massive market shift we have seen has made it a very wise decision for many to stop listing their own cards and simply hand them over to PWCC. The record prices attract new submissions and the cycle repeats. These same sellers could have chosen to list the cards themselves but saw that the platform and number of buyers was immense and I assume the anonymity is a major attraction too.

There are countless EBAY sellers who list cards at BIN's and when they don't move ship them off to PWCC to let them fly.

EBAY is the ocean and PWCC is the most popular beach. Getting out of the water because a shark is present may save you for a moment but that same shark is going to go visit a different beach.

I live on Orlando where traffic is a nightmare. There is massive construction taking place on I-4. It is a zoo. In theory my greatest risk of an accident is there yet the closest I have come to getting into an accident was last weekend when a women almost backed into my beloved 911 Turbo. Risk is everywhere.

Exhibitman you disagree with everything I say but you are wrong in suggesting I think you and others are nuts for avoiding PWCC. Quite frankly most of you have already done so and it will have no impact on their business. I am simply saying those of us that look at the landscape and have made a conscious decision to be willing to continue to buy from them aren't nuts. I won't let something like this get in the way of trying to continue to build my collection. Period.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

During this time frame there has been a massive shift in market share. PWCC is by far the largest EBAY auction house and sells immensely more graded cards than anyone. They offer 99 cent auctions on the best cards that come to market. Probstein who one could consider their next closest competitor lists tons of items with high starting prices and while that may protect the seller it certainly isn't as appealing for the buyers.

The massive market shift we have seen has made it a very wise decision for many to stop listing their own cards and simply hand them over to PWCC. The record prices attract new submissions and the cycle repeats. These same sellers could have chosen to list the cards themselves but saw that the platform and number of buyers was immense and I assume the anonymity is a major attraction too.

There are countless EBAY sellers who list cards at BIN's and when they don't move ship them off to PWCC to let them fly.

EBAY is the ocean and PWCC is the most popular beach. Getting out of the water because a shark is present may save you for a moment but that same shark is going to go visit a different beach.

I live on Orlando where traffic is a nightmare. There is massive construction taking place on I-4. It is a zoo. In theory my greatest risk of an accident is there yet the closest I have come to getting into an accident was last weekend when a women almost backed into my beloved 911 Turbo. Risk is everywhere.

Exhibitman you disagree with everything I say but you are wrong in suggesting I think you and others are nuts for avoiding PWCC. Quite frankly most of you have already done so and it will have no impact on their business. I am simply saying those of us that look at the landscape and have made a conscious decision to be willing to continue to buy from them aren't nuts. I won't let something like this get in the way of trying to continue to build my collection. Period.

Yeah, but they sell altered cards, David. Lots of them. And they conspire with people like that obnoxious dead guy (I forget his name) to run up the bidding on the auctions. I don't want to build my collection on altered cards. That ain't the point. Nothing PWCC sells is really rare, it is the flip that is rare. If you buy the flip, just say so. Don't dress it up with a bunch of market gas.

As for the impact of boycotting PWCC, you are wrong. I passed on the N43 sale that PWCC had last week. And yeah, it did impact on their business because the cards I was interested in sold far below what I would have bid for them. A small impact to be sure, perhaps $500, but each incremental impact helps. A boycott is like building a brick structure: piece by piece it adds up.

[Dpeck100]

If buying these two bums from one of the sets I collect from them makes me a flip buyer so be it.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

If buying these two bums from one of the sets I collect from them makes me a flip buyer so be it.

That's a really small pic. Can't even see who they are.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by steve B

That's a really small pic. Can't even see who they are.

You have Billy Robinson who was actually a tremendous real wrestler but has little fan fare in professional wrestling circles at this point that went for $9.30 in a PSA 9 and you have Steve Olsonoski who was a rising star in the early 80's working mostly in Georgia and Minnesota but for whatever reason flamed out in a PSA 9 for $11.50.

Both are great copies of the card and just go into one of my registry sets. I have quite a few going and when I can pick up already graded Mint examples at way below what a BIN will cost I do so.

[sportscardtheory]

Cognitive dissonance at it's very finest.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

You have Billy Robinson who was actually a tremendous real wrestler but has little fan fare in professional wrestling circles at this point that went for $9.30 in a PSA 9 and you have Steve Olsonoski who was a rising star in the early 80's working mostly in Georgia and Minnesota but for whatever reason flamed out in a PSA 9 for $11.50.

Both are great copies of the card and just go into one of my registry sets. I have quite a few going and when I can pick up already graded Mint examples at way below what a BIN will cost I do so.

You make some good points.

A card at 11.50 is pretty close to a free card with the grading..

I'm not as sure that the risk is the same with PWCC as with anyone else. Of course alterations and fakes have been with us probably from the beginning, I bought a fake card at the first show I went to in 1978. I feel the risk is higher if a dealer is known to regularly handle cards with well done alterations.

I'm also not so sure that buying from them is the way to go.
In the case of some cards, I can see where it would be hard to ignore.
My kids will sometimes do things I don't want them to do. sometimes minor, sometimes bigger. On some stuff they might lie to try to cover up what they did. And yet later they ask for the computer, or to go to the corner store for candy. I tell them no because it feels like I'm rewarding them for being bad (especially the lying, if they'd just say "yes, I spilled milk and left it because I didn't want to miss Teen Titans Go " instead of "spilled milk? What spilled milk" I might go easier)
Buying from someone who by all indications sold altered stuff for years and then tries to cover by saying those alterations are conservation seems like rewarding them for being bad.*

I'd probably feel more strongly about it if I'd spent hundreds on an altered card. And I have no idea what I'd do if I'd spent thousands. (I think the most I spent on any collectible was around 1200)

*And yet, I still buy stuff from Lowes despite having bought a snowblower that lasted maybe 10 hours of operating time before the engine seized. And it was just out of warranty... (&(_^&& Lowes and Troy Bilt.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Yeah, but they sell altered cards, David. Lots of them. And they conspire with people like that obnoxious dead guy (I forget his name) to run up the bidding on the auctions. I don't want to build my collection on altered cards. That ain't the point. Nothing PWCC sells is really rare, it is the flip that is rare. If you buy the flip, just say so. Don't dress it up with a bunch of market gas.

As for the impact of boycotting PWCC, you are wrong. I passed on the N43 sale that PWCC had last week. And yeah, it did impact on their business because the cards I was interested in sold far below what I would have bid for them. A small impact to be sure, perhaps $500, but each incremental impact helps. A boycott is like building a brick structure: piece by piece it adds up.

I believe his name was Courtney Delorme. Posting as it should make for people doing their own due diligence related to auction shilling, cleaning, etc

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

I believe his name was Courtney Delorme. Posting as it should make for people doing their own due diligence related to auction shilling, cleaning, etc

Whodunit was his ID here. He had some interesting posts.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

I won't let something like this get in the way of trying to continue to build my collection. Period.

Well maybe we can't get in your way, but I'm beginning to have a good feeling that law enforcement will. Very good chance they are reading/processing this as we banter back and forth. This is one "building" that might soon be condemned.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

my problem isn't with what Dave decides to do with his money. It's with his (and correct me if I'm wrong) apparent disdain for people who do back up their points of view with their wallets. There are any number of businesses which I refuse to patronize for myriad reasons.

It's not that I'm an idiot who doesn't realize that literally any seller could be selling altered cards. It's that I refuse to do business with someone I KNOW is involved in altering cards.

Will my dollars make a difference? Well, not mine individually, but just like voting in an election (which by your logic is pointless) if I don't stand by my convictions and cease doing business with PWCC I should automatically loose my right to bitch.

Plus I don't want my paltry contribution buying some knick knack that appears in the next issue of Oregon House Beautiful next to a smiling Brent and Betsy.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

my problem isn't with what Dave decides to do with his money. It's with his (and correct me if I'm wrong) apparent disdain for people who do back up their points of view with their wallets. There are any number of businesses which I refuse to patronize for myriad reasons.

It's not that I'm an idiot who doesn't realize that literally any seller could be selling altered cards. It's that I refuse to do business with someone I KNOW is involved in altering cards.

Will my dollars make a difference? Well, not mine individually, but just like voting in an election (which by your logic is pointless) if I don't stand by my convictions and cease doing business with PWCC I should automatically loose my right to bitch.

Plus I don't want my paltry contribution buying some knick knack that appears in the next issue of Oregon House Beautiful next to a smiling Brent and Betsy.

David can speak for himself but my take on his comments was the opposite. No disdain for those choosing to spend their money elsewhere but rather for those calling him out for where he chooses to spend his money.

That is my opinion any way, even if I got David's wrong. I have no problem with what any of you spend your money on. But don't act like I'm some kind of idiot because I may not agree with your point of view. I have assumed this kind of stuff was going on long before i got into the hobby. And I don't believe the probability of buying a graded card that is altered and escaped detection at a tpg is much greater at any one auction house than it is at another.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

David can speak for himself but my take on his comments was the opposite. No disdain for those choosing to spend their money elsewhere but rather for those calling him out for where he chooses to spend his money.

That is my opinion any way, even if I got David's wrong. I have no problem with what any of you spend your money on. But don't act like I'm some kind of idiot because I may not agree with your point of view. I have assumed this kind of stuff was going on long before i got into the hobby. And I don't believe the probability of buying a graded card that is altered and escaped detection at a tpg is much greater at any one auction house than it is at another.

Exactly. I certainly don't care what one chooses to do with their money. I just find it ridiculous the moral authority that suggests you and I are bad actors for being willing to buy from them. I focus on my collection and mine only. For me I want to continue to build it and that means more to me than being worried about who I buy cards from.

Ethics is treating others how you want to be treated. Taking care of those close to you. Not who you buy trading cards from.

What kid when I was growing up got treated fairly by the local card dealer? None. EBAY has leveled the playing field where the collector can be the house. In many cases it is my understanding that the fees that get charged on consignments can actually be cheaper than doing it yourself. If anything the collector is netting more today from the sale of their cards than ever. That is a good thing.

[HasselhoffsCheeseburger]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

Exactly. I certainly don't care what one chooses to do with their money. I just find it ridiculous the moral authority that suggests you and I are bad actors for being willing to buy from them. I focus on my collection and mine only. For me I want to continue to build it and that means more to me than being worried about who I buy cards from.

You act like Brent got caught being mean to somebody's Mom. Allegedly, he's been caught red-handed committing fraud and conspiring to commit fraud. He's been a key player in an enterprise that has allegedly scammed hundreds, if not thousands, of fellow collectors out of hundreds of thousands of dollars (if not over a million by now). There's an ethical and legal precedence for this. We pass judgment on people that choose to do business with people like this.

You can buy a gun from a gun store but you don't get to head down to Park Place and buy a gun with the serial number filed off from Joe Gangster out of the trunk of his car. As a society we've established ethical norms and that's not okay. Doing business with people who allegedly commit fraud and try to hurt others for their own financial gain is not a personal preference, it is a conscious choice to go against the societal norms on ethics that have been established.

So, yeah, that's sort of where people are coming from when they say you shouldn't be doing business with him.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

Exactly. I certainly don't care what one chooses to do with their money. I just find it ridiculous the moral authority that suggests you and I are bad actors for being willing to buy from them. I focus on my collection and mine only. For me I want to continue to build it and that means more to me than being worried about who I buy cards from.

Ethics is treating others how you want to be treated. Taking care of those close to you. Not who you buy trading cards from.

What kid when I was growing up got treated fairly by the local card dealer? None. EBAY has leveled the playing field where the collector can be the house. In many cases it is my understanding that the fees that get charged on consignments can actually be cheaper than doing it yourself. If anything the collector is netting more today from the sale of their cards than ever. That is a good thing.

Ethics imbues all aspects of your life: if you really hold those values you don't compartmentalize. i don't sometimes cheat people. I try not to cheat anyone regardless of whether it is a law client or an eBay purchaser.

Your last paragraph makes me feel sorry for you. I was treated very well by quite a few local card dealers when I was a kid. They went out of their way to help me, answered questions, and gave me deals on cards. That you never had that sort of good experience in the hobby as a kid goes a long way to explaining your 'I got mine and the rest of the world be damned' attitude about collecting.

[Dpeck100]

I am starting to get the feeling that many of you don't go to EBAY frequently and see what has taken place over the past few years. There used to be a ton of sellers listing 99 cent auctions. Do a quick search and see what you find. You have Probstein that does some but many have extremely high opening bids, you have Greg Morris who has nearly 20,000 auctions running and only 175 of those are graded cards and loads of small time sellers with higher opening bids.

PWCC whether anyone likes it or not is the 800 pound gorilla and the number of listings they have in each monthly auctions has doubled in the last three years. While I think it is unlikely Brent goes to prison and his auction house folds in theory it could happen and if so you will see a lot of new sellers pop right back up and many of these same cards will be sold by them and the others will be sent to the two consignment dealers listed above and perhaps a new consignment seller will emerge.

I personally have never used any of them and have only sold my own cards. That said there are loads of collectors out there that like to move cards and find it easier to just send them off and let someone else do all of the work and pay a fee. I am in the brokerage business and many trade online for a few bucks while others think it is ridiculous to pay me in some cases four figures to process some trades. I choose to list my own cards because it is easy for me to do and I have carved out a name for myself in a little niche where I can get as high of price as anyone. Quite frankly PWCC gets in many cases much lower prices for the cards I collect because many items actually do better in a BIN scenario.

Regardless they take on all types of cards and have a beautiful listing format and are easy to deal with so for that they have many repeat buyers. They also happen to get the best material of anyone on EBAY. As I have stated before I have spent less than $1,000 in their auctions so I am not a big buyer of theirs but people are fooling themselves if they think that somehow they are insulating themselves by boycotting their auctions.

I get the concept of not wanting to do business with someone you feel is shady or unethical but I realize there are plenty that fit this profile in the trading card world and you are just trading one evil for another if that is your concern. If setting aside your desire to work on your collection and not do business with a specific seller is more important to you that is fine too but rest assured that if you have been buying graded cards for any length of time you have purchased some from someone that isn't entirely on the up and up.

The person I purchased a card from directly was the seller who went to a school in California and was looking for help on how to use a high powered cutting machine. I purchased the card from his auction and it is very possible the PSA graded card is trimmed. I could choose not to do business with him and I know exactly who is selling the card.

With PWCC you don't generally speaking. I keep track of many of the cards from the sets I collect so I knew when the 1982 Wrestling All Stars Series A PSA 10 Ric Flair was auctioned off it was Bob Evans or begsu. In most cases where there are higher population totals you won't know.

There are large numbers of collectors sending them material so in order for you to succeed you need these same collectors to quit doing it. As long as the process is smooth and the results are good I don't see this changing. In the mean time I will bid on cards in their auctions as they pop up and if something happens to them the cards will be sold elsewhere and I will bid on them there. This is a supply issue as I have stated and many will have to come to a crossroads in their collecting journey if they choose to not consider their offerings.

It is my understanding that this Gary Moser individual as been up to the same tricks for twenty years. Where did he sell those cards before PWCC? It has to be through some of the more popular auction houses I would think. Did he sell them at shows? Perhaps and once they are released into the collecting world they could turn up anywhere. There could be guys on the BST board who have unknowingly owned a card he has handled and had a great transaction with a board member. Did they do anything wrong? This stuff is out there.

On the modern side many of the cards were sold directly from one dealer to EBAY buyers and a direct website. Just imagine one of these collectors saying I want to sell this Lebron and creating an EBAY listing and selling it themselves. It has most likely happened so one avenue is thought of as totally fine and another is bad. It doesn't make any sense to me.

[RiceBondsMntna2Young]

PWCC is obviously the greater danger here, given all the PWCC fanboys tying themselves in knots trying to defend a company corrupt to the core.

PWCCs danger is illustrated here. No one defends Moser. He's scum. It's consensus. PWCC is the one with the veneer of respectability. It's the cover people seem to use to try and defend their practices. In turn, they're given further cover by PWCC, whose goal it is to normalize the arguably criminal and unarguably unethical methodology by which they run their racket. They, like many here defending them, want to maintain the status quo because it's lining their pocket. It's disgusting.

I really think there are some motivations here that should be brought to light. I'm just guessing but I think defenders of PWCC to a man have something to lose if PWCC goes down. Either their cards are in the vault, or they've made a lot of money over the years consigning to this shadiest of shady auction houses.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by RiceBondsMntna2Young

PWCC is obviously the greater danger here, given all the PWCC fanboys tying themselves in knots trying to defend a company corrupt to the core.

PWCCs danger is illustrated here. No one defends Moser. He's scum. It's consensus. PWCC is the one with the veneer of respectability. It's the cover people seem to use to try and defend their practices. In turn, they're given further cover by PWCC, whose goal it is to normalize the arguably criminal and unarguably unethical methodology by which they run their racket. They, like many here defending them, want to maintain the status quo because it's lining their pocket. It's disgusting.

I really think there are some motivations here that should be brought to light. I'm just guessing but I think defenders of PWCC to a man have something to lose if PWCC goes down. Either their cards are in the vault, or they've made a lot of money over the years consigning to this shadiest of shady auction houses.

I only see a few people suggesting in this thread they will continue to buy from PWCC.

My total spending's are right at $1,000 and I have never once sent them a card for sale.

Not a PWCC fan boy but a market participant and that is it.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Card doctors have always found outlets for their cards. This has been going on since the advent of TPG. On the vintage side, and apparently to a greater extent than I realized, on the modern side. There doubtless are guys who won't take them. But many, or even most, will.

With all this happening, and people's obvious concern, has anyone other than Al Crisafulli come forward and said not in my auction?

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Card doctors have always found outlets for their cards. This has been going on since the advent of TPG. On the vintage side, and apparently to a greater extent than I realized, on the modern side. There doubtless are guys who won't take them. But many, or even most, will.

With all this happening, and people's obvious concern, has anyone other than Al Crisafulli come forward and said not in my auction?

I figure if I come out and make a statement it just looks like a cry for attention as a little guy, but I think everyone on Net54 is pretty clear on where I stand. If not let me state it outright. I will never knowingly have ANY business dealings with a known card doctor.