Poll: response to recent PWCC revelations

[pokerplyr80]

I just don't think the auction house is where the focus should be. It's almost irrelevant to the situation in my opinion. The cards were altered to one degree or another and certified by the most trusted grading companies in the world. Any auction house would have accepted them.

Many of these cards that were outed simply had something removed from the card. If the card doctors are skilled enough to remove a stain with no trace, what is there to detect? These cards shouldn't be in the conversation at all. Unless you have a problem with those doing the altering.

Cards that were trimmed, recolored, or rebuilt (corners) are the issue. How was this not detected? Especially on modern cards that should all measure 2.5 by 3.5. These are the cases were it seems clear fraud was committed. And someone at the grading company has either been paid off or they're just incompetent. These cards shouldn't just slip through the cracks. But again, once they're graded how is the auction house supposed to know? They don't spend hours looking through every similar card sold previously. They don't have the benefit of before and after scans.

[Peter_Spaeth]

If I didn't sell the drugs to that guy, someone else would have. So what?

I agree there are lots of places that need focus, absolutely, but that doesn't minimize the role of a major ebay seller knowingly enabling a card doctor, in my always humble opinion. And no he is not the only one by any stretch, but he's put himself in the crosshairs by all the good for the hobby stuff and complete hypocrisy, and the paper trail, so he will reap what he sowed, or should anyhow.

You want evidence? He was disproportionately stickering Moser cards and recommending that people like the 52 Bowman Musial guy buy them. To the tune of hundreds of thousands of dollars or more.

By the way I suspect we have not heard the last of all the modern trimmed stuff sold through PWCC either.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If I didn't sell the drugs to that guy, someone else would have. So what?.

In that situation, much like this one, I would be concerned with the guys producing, growing, transporting, etc. Escobar, El Chapo, than i would be the guys selling 20 bags on the street. But that's different because no one could unknowingly sell an 8 ball. Everyone involved knows they're breaking the law.

But should some of these drugs even be illegal? That's an issue for another discussion.

I'd also be much more concerned with someone becoming a billionaire by convincing doctors across the country to get people hooked on oxy than a doctor who wrote a few too many scripts.

Go to the source if you want to fix the problem.

[Peter_Spaeth]

To me there are three issues here of equal importance. The card doctors. The sellers enabling the card doctors. And the TPGs (hopefully due to incompetence not fraud) slabbing doctored cards. I think all three need to be addressed and I'll take intervention at any and all levels.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

To me there are three issues here of equal importance. The card doctors. The sellers enabling the card doctors. And the TPGs (hopefully due to incompetence not fraud) slabbing doctored cards. I think all three need to be addressed and I'll take intervention at any and all levels.

If all 3 were of equal importance to you, why was PWCC the only one in your poll?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

If all 3 were of equal importance to you, why was PWCC the only one in your poll?

I am not nearly smart enough to design a poll encompassing all three areas at once, but by all means you should.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I am not nearly smart enough to design a poll encompassing all three areas at once, but by all means you should.

Would this have been too hard?

I wasn't buying from or consigning to PWCC or submitting to PSA in the first place.
I will no longer buy from/consign to PWCC or submit to PSA.
I will continue to buy from/consign to PWCC and submit to PSA.
I haven't decided.

Let's not be disingenuous.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

If all 3 were of equal importance to you, why was PWCC the only one in your poll?

Have you read any of my posts savaging Sloan's response, by the way? If not read them and come back and make the absurd suggestion that I am not just as focused on PSA.

[Exhibitman]

No More PWCC. Life is too short.

[sportscardtheory]

This was from early in the thread, but I just laughed out loud when someone said they needed "video evidence" to believe PWCC was involved in this completely obvious fraud. Hilarious. Try changing that guy's mind on ANYTHING. He's dug in like a tick.

[CobbSpikedMe]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

I just don't think the auction house is where the focus should be. It's almost irrelevant to the situation in my opinion. The cards were altered to one degree or another and certified by the most trusted grading companies in the world. Any auction house would have accepted them.

So even with all the evidence proving that PWCC sold hundreds of altered cards for (so far) close to a million dollars, you still don't think they should be part of the conversation. We aren't talking about an AH not knowingly taking a few altered graded cards and selling them. We are seeing proof of this activity happening repeatedly hundreds of times by the same two guys. You don't think they both know what's going on?

[Copa7]

I believe each to his/her own.

But for the record, I prefer to know those that are OK with buying from PWCC. At least this way, I know not to purchase from those when they try to liquidate their tainted collection.

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by Copa7

I believe each to his/her own.

But for the record, I prefer to know those that are OK with buying from PWCC. At least this way, I know not to purchase from those when they try to liquidate their tainted collection.

This. I voted that I would never buy/consign from them again. I'm good with that. I am stunned by the level/number of people who are OK with being lied to and defrauded, but I get that stuff trumps all and for some people, the number on that flip is all that matters.

That "proof" argument? Pleeeeease. Give me a break. The very fact that you would even make that argument says so much. I agree that I hope that everyone who feels that way identifies themselves so I don't ever make the mistake of dealing with you.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

This. I voted that I would never buy/consign from them again. I'm good with that. I am stunned by the level/number of people who are OK with being lied to and defrauded, but I get that stuff trumps all and for some people, the number on that flip is all that matters.

That "proof" argument? Pleeeeease. Give me a break. The very fact that you would even make that argument says so much. I agree that I hope that everyone who feels that way identifies themselves so I don't ever make the mistake of dealing with you.

I guess emails aren't proof these days.

[Kenny Cole]

You can't fix either stupid or willful ignorance. Now, I just want to know who they are so I can avoid them.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

You can't fix either stupid or willful ignorance. Now, I just want to know who they are so I can avoid them.

As unscientific as the poll is, I am encouraged that the number saying they will stop is twice as large as the number saying they will continue.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I guess emails aren't proof these days.

A wise man once said


Stuff trumps all


Please dont come crying here, or to PSA when a majority of your "best cards" are proven altered or suspect. Live by the sword, die by the sword. Amirite? I, for one, wont feel the least bit sad for you. Me thinks "the best stuff", "investment grade", "eye appeal", "highest prces" "sparkly stickered: are 75% altered or shilled. Qo der how the pwcc fan boys are sleeping at night.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

A wise man once said


Stuff trumps all


Please dont come crying here, or to PSA when a majority of your "best cards" are proven altered or suspect. Live by the sword, die by the sword. Amirite? I, for one, wont feel the least bit sad for you. Me thinks "the best stuff", "investment grade", "eye appeal", "highest prces" "sparkly stickered: are 75% altered or shilled. Qo der how the pwcc fan boys are sleeping at night.

Whoever that was knew what he was talking about.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

This. I voted that I would never buy/consign from them again. I'm good with that. I am stunned by the level/number of people who are OK with being lied to and defrauded, but I get that stuff trumps all and for some people, the number on that flip is all that matters.

That "proof" argument? Pleeeeease. Give me a break. The very fact that you would even make that argument says so much. I agree that I hope that everyone who feels that way identifies themselves so I don't ever make the mistake of dealing with you.

If you're the kind of person who passes judgement on others before the facts are out, and have a problem with me stating my opinion on this forum, than I would prefer not to do business with you either. My Ebay ID is the same as it is here. Block it. I won't lose any sleep over your decision.

I've had several successful transactions wwith no issues here and other places. I will find a place to buy and sell my cards when the need arises.

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

If you're the kind of person who passes judgement on others before the facts out, and have a problem with me stating my opinion on this forum, than I would prefer not to do business with you either. My Ebay ID is the same as it is here. Block it. I won't lose any sleep over your decision.

I've had several successful transactions wwith no issues here and other places. I will find a place to buy and sell my cards when the need arises.

Excellent. I will do that. I think you are a moron.

[mechanicalman]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

Excellent. I will do that. I think you are a moron.

Kenny, how do ad hominem attacks advance your argument?

[drcy]

Originally Posted by Copa7

I believe each to his/her own.

But for the record, I prefer to know those that are OK with buying from PWCC. At least this way, I know not to purchase from those when they try to liquidate their tainted collection.

Good point. Why would you buy from someone who says they got their cards from PWCC.

That the provenance doesn't bother a buyer "ain't worth a hill of beans" when he turns to try to sell to collectors who do care about that provenance. And many collectors will consider the provenance a reflection on the seller's general ethics and care about authenticity. Irrelevant to the authenticity, "I got my autographs from Coach's Corner" isn't a good selling point or a good look for a seller.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by CobbSpikedMe

So even with all the evidence proving that PWCC sold hundreds of altered cards for (so far) close to a million dollars, you still don't think they should be part of the conversation. We aren't talking about an AH not knowingly taking a few altered graded cards and selling them. We are seeing proof of this activity happening repeatedly hundreds of times by the same two guys. You don't think they both know what's going on?

What if someone starts digging into heritage, rea, goldin, etc and finds before and after scans for a few hundred cards? Should we stop buying from all of them? Should we automatically assume the AH is at fault?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

What if someone starts digging into heritage, rea, goldin, etc and finds before and after scans for a few hundred cards? Should we stop buying from all of them? Should we automatically assume the AH is at fault?

Again, Brent has admitted knowing he was selling altered cards for Gary. This is not in controversy. I think the case against each other seller would have to depend on the facts. I strongly suspect many of them knew exactly what they were doing, and in at least one other case of an AH I have had that conversation, but I don't have the same level of evidence nor has the same overwhelming circumstantial evidence yet been uncovered.

[CobbSpikedMe]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

What if someone starts digging into heritage, rea, goldin, etc and finds before and after scans for a few hundred cards? Should we stop buying from all of them? Should we automatically assume the AH is at fault?

Yes.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

What if someone starts digging into heritage, rea, goldin, etc and finds before and after scans for a few hundred cards? Should we stop buying from all of them? Should we automatically assume the AH is at fault?

YES!!!!!!, You are very dopey, mcdope dope