What I Don't Understand about Baseball Card Economics

[darwinbulldog]

What's really going to upset the apple cart is when we find out the Black Swamp Find was just Gary Moser's master's thesis project.

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

Now isn't that a thought! Alteration becomes essentially impossible to detect causing the supply of high grade vintage cards to soar, and their prices to fall. Or....technology comes to the rescue and such alteration becomes detectable. Under that scenario two things happen, provided that in order to hold value such cards need to be re slabbed under the newer method: 1. The supply of unaltered high grade vintage cards plummet and the true unaltered ones hold or rise in value. 2. The prices of altered ones (the majority) plummet in value.

So I am back to my original premise: why isn't any of this information built into the price of Mint cards? If I'm a buyer and I know anything about what is going on with high grade cards, I'm moving forward with caution. But the current market plows ahead like a freight train.

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

So I am back to my original premise: why isn't any of this information built into the price of Mint cards? If I'm a buyer and I know anything about what is going on with high grade cards, I'm moving forward with caution. But the current market plows ahead like a freight train.

How much of this is understood outside this Board? And even within this Board, there is disagreement how widespread the problem is. I've expressed my opinion. I've never said it reflects the majority view.

[drcy]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

So I am back to my original premise: why isn't any of this information built into the price of Mint cards? If I'm a buyer and I know anything about what is going on with high grade cards, I'm moving forward with caution. But the current market plows ahead like a freight train.

Just concerning the margins of error and subjectivity and flip of the coin of grades, I never understood it.

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

How much of this is understood outside this Board? And even within this Board, there is disagreement how widespread the problem is. I've expressed my opinion. I've never said it reflects the majority view.

I think it's known beyond just this board. And collectors generally interact and talk about the hobby. Probably not everyone knows, but in no way is this some Net54 secret.

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

So I am back to my original premise: why isn't any of this information built into the price of Mint cards? If I'm a buyer and I know anything about what is going on with high grade cards, I'm moving forward with caution. But the current market plows ahead like a freight train.

Barry, I am not sure the market is plowing ahead. Last night, a very pretty PSA 8, t206 Wajo pitching closed for under $19k - by recent comps, that should have been a $30k+ card. The e98 cobb psa 9 went “cheap” in my opinion, as did the t206 O’Hara polar bear PSA 5, the e105 Wagner PSA 5, the higher grades Lajoies (portrait and throwing), among other cards I was watching with interest. It seems the two cards that did not go cheap that I was watching, were the only two I bid on - the t206 brown Lenox and the t215-1. I think some prices from last night’s auction reflected the fear. Is that short lived? Probably. But I think many cards, especially mid-high grades that I was watching, went a bit cheap

[barrysloate]

That's interesting Ryan, but of course you need a larger sample to see if this is having any impact. I would have to think some collectors are being cautious, but agree that it might be short lived.

[oldjudge]

I’m not a graded card guy, so I’m not talking my book, but I see this having no long term negative impact on PSA. I think they will make some improvements and come out of the current situation stronger than they were. I also don’t think there will be a new grading company entering the field. Unless a new company could compete registry wise, it would be foolish to start. The registry drives everything.

[SMPEP]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

What's really going to upset the apple cart is when we find out the Black Swamp Find was just Gary Moser's master's thesis project.

I have to say ... the first second I heard about this find ... my immediate response was ... why on Earth would anyone believe this claim? I lived in Ohio. I've been in farm houses there. The change in humidity from summer to winter alone should have made folks skeptical.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Barry, I am not sure the market is plowing ahead. Last night, a very pretty PSA 8, t206 Wajo pitching closed for under $19k - by recent comps, that should have been a $30k+ card. The e98 cobb psa 9 went “cheap” in my opinion, as did the t206 O’Hara polar bear PSA 5, the e105 Wagner PSA 5, the higher grades Lajoies (portrait and throwing), among other cards I was watching with interest. It seems the two cards that did not go cheap that I was watching, were the only two I bid on - the t206 brown Lenox and the t215-1. I think some prices from last night’s auction reflected the fear. Is that short lived? Probably. But I think many cards, especially mid-high grades that I was watching, went a bit cheap

Everything I was watching, either because I'm thinking about buying, selling, or just curious, has been plowing ahead. Jackson, Ruth, Cobb, Gehrig, and Mantle all seem strong. 93 Jeter and Trout rookies seem to have gone up by 3-4x in the last couple of years. 48 Robinsons have also been strong.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

What's really going to upset the apple cart is when we find out the Black Swamp Find was just Gary Moser's master's thesis project.

A truly outstanding post.

[Snapolit1]

I assume nearly all of the folks pouring big money into baseball cards are people (men, age 40-70) who are set for life financially (or think they are) and the $100,000 or $500,000 they are spending on a card isn't that huge of a deal all things considered. And they decide for some reason it would be really really cool to own a rare Babe Ruth card. They are going to get a rare Babe Ruth baseball card. It's not like there is some alternative place they can go to get a Babe Ruth card. So this is the sandbox they play in. They hold their nose, do a little research, and take a plunge.

If I decided tomorrow that my life would be complete if I owned a '67 red Camaro and I had the money to do it I would buy one. I doubt I'd be deterred by people pissing and and moaning on an Internet chat board. (I might even think it's a wonderful time to buy one because of all the pissing and moaning.)

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

If I decided tomorrow that my life would be complete if I owned a '67 red Camaro and I had the money to do it I would buy one. I doubt I'd be deterred by people pissing and and moaning on an Internet chat board. (I might even think it's a wonderful time to buy one because of all the pissing and moaning.)

You wouldn't be a little concerned if all that pissing and moaning was discussing the latest FBI counterfeit car sting operation that had just busted a ring manufacturing fake '67 red Camaro's, and that the last 11 sold were fakes?

[barrysloate]

I do agree with Steve that those who don't participate on this chat board probably do look at us as a bunch of whiners and complainers. However, among all that whining you can find a lot of useful information. And I would hate to think that all this talk about altered cards over the last couple of weeks is looked upon by the hobby at large as just a whole lot of nonsense.

[oldjudge]

The vast vast majority of cards in PSA (or SGC) holders are fine. Some doctored cards slipped by and that’s a problem. Hopefully, PSA will figure out a method to solve, or at least minimize the problem. I think one way to reduce this problem going forward is to prosecute the card doctorers. If a few of these scum bags goes to jail then the incentive for their shenanigans will be significantly lessened.

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

You wouldn't be a little concerned if all that pissing and moaning was discussing the latest FBI counterfeit car sting operation that had just busted a ring manufacturing fake '67 red Camaro's, and that the last 11 sold were fakes?

I might or I might not.

[More like some of the '67 Camaros have non original parts and are not identified as such.]

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

I do agree with Steve that those who don't participate on this chat board probably do look at us as a bunch of whiners and complainers. However, among all that whining you can find a lot of useful information. And I would hate to think that all this talk about altered cards over the last couple of weeks is looked upon by the hobby at large as just a whole lot of nonsense.

I hope changes come, but watching some high end cards on PWCC last night there didn't seem to be any shortage of interested buyers.

[Bigdaddy]

Folks, I believe that we are missing the elephant in the room here. The problem is not the trimmed/altered cards - after all, what remains is still an authentic card.

The problem is what are we, as a society, going to do about all those Moser trimmings piling up in some landfill? The industrial waste generated by trimming the edges of cards is going to be a huge problem. It's going to end up in the ocean, choking sea lions and filling the stomachs of whales.

We are on the verge of a natural disaster.

[drcy]

I agree. Don't alert PSA, alert Greenpeace.

[Johnny630]

Up until this recent scandal the time to sell has never been better !!

[conor912]

Originally Posted by Bigdaddy

Folks, I believe that we are missing the elephant in the room here. The problem is not the trimmed/altered cards - after all, what remains is still an authentic card.

The problem is what are we, as a society, going to do about all those Moser trimmings piling up in some landfill? The industrial waste generated by trimming the edges of cards is going to be a huge problem. It's going to end up in the ocean, choking sea lions and filling the stomachs of whales.

We are on the verge of a natural disaster.

But think about all the jobs his waste is creating. You don't want to eliminate jobs do you?

[Bram99]

Originally Posted by Bigdaddy

Folks, I believe that we are missing the elephant in the room here. The problem is not the trimmed/altered cards - after all, what remains is still an authentic card.

The problem is what are we, as a society, going to do about all those Moser trimmings piling up in some landfill? The industrial waste generated by trimming the edges of cards is going to be a huge problem. It's going to end up in the ocean, choking sea lions and filling the stomachs of whales.

We are on the verge of a natural disaster.

This is not what has happened to the trimmings. Topps has struck a deal with PWCC and Moser and they will be issuing Heritage versions of the actual trimmed cards with a piece of the real card trimming. PSA is authenticating the scraps and trimmings as part of the deal, and JSA is verifying that the trimmings match the legendary card doctor's famous scissors.

Please stop spreading silly rumors like the one in the picture above.

[hcv123]

Originally Posted by steve B

That the vast majority of people - even the "smart" ones with degrees etc. are quite often stupid.

Being well educated in one or more areas doesn't mean someone isn't uneducated or under educated in others - the problem is self realizing this!

[ramram]

Bottom line is - baseball card collectors "hear what they want to hear and disregard the rest"....

Rob M