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#1001
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Even though anonymous trolls and criminals don't like Beckett, on BO, they are a good company. This is a good move for both SGC and Beckett in my opinion.
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Leon Luckey |
#1002
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I don't think this is a good sign for longevity. Promised changes are not happening fast, and now closing a division of the business and probably laying off staff.
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#1003
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they NEVER should have
started auto authenticating before they got their holder/registry/grading issues on CARDS resolved...…….
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#1004
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I don’t believe they will be in business 10 years from now. You are sort of doomed when buyers and dealers won’t touch a card that they have graded. The prices reflect that and people do not want to flip them to take losses. |
#1005
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I don’t have many unsigned SGC graded cards any more, but the prices on SGC graded T206 cards in last week’s REA did very well, IMHO, surpassing PSA in some cases (e.g., T206 Johnson Portrait PSA 5 vs SGC 5).
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Galleries and Articles about T206 Player Autographs www.SignedT206.com www.instagram.com/signedT206/ @SignedT206 |
#1006
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Frankly, I think everyone has the same concerns about autograph authenticity whether it be SGC, PSA, JSA, etc.
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http://www.flickr.com/photos/calvindog/sets |
#1007
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Quote:
http://www.milehighcardco.com/1952_T...-LOT62449.aspx Last edited by Snapolit1; 03-28-2019 at 06:16 PM. |
#1008
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Authenticity Issues
Hi Jeff, JoeT here and I hope all is well. Just remember, that for every fake autograph, there’s at least one if not more “doctored” cards in a high grade holder. Anyone disagreeing with that is badly fooling themselves.
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#1009
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No doubt. I think the obvious differences are that not only does a trimmed card still have value compared to a fake autograph but the trim job - if unknown - is not presumed fake whereas many autos are.
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http://www.flickr.com/photos/calvindog/sets |
#1010
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Authenticity of Cards
Agreed Jeff but with either scenario, unfortunately we are talking about outright fraud.
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#1011
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Quote:
SGC doesn't grade that many cards and they probably weren't grading very many auto's so it is an easy business decision to shut down a line of business that you play a very limited role in the market in and one that you might be taking significant financial risk by doing. It might not have been profitable for them anyways. I have only dealt with SGC once and felt like the process was smooth and was really happy with how the cards looked in their holders. The problem is the collecting pool is getting smaller and smaller for their cards and there may certainly be segments where the collector base is very solid and perhaps like them more than other third party graders but the general trend is slipping. It is my understanding at one point recently that they might grade 10,000 cards in a good month. This isn't a very large business and the revenue is probably less than 1.5 million if not lower. I think a lot of people forget how small the third party authentication business really is. PSA has a market share that amounts to total domination of a market and they really don't make that much money. Collectors Universe through June of 18 only made 6.2 million in profit for the fiscal year and around 35% of the company is represented by PSA so we are not talking huge numbers. I think it is a very real possibility at some point SGC goes away. It might not and I think having choices is better for a market but it certainly isn't out of the realm of possibilities. What I think is more likely is they keep maintaining a very small amount of market share and someone out there is making 400k or so a year to operate it and is totally fine with it. It will certainly be interesting. If they go out of business it is bad for the slabs in general but there are once again probably some areas where the collectors are totally comfortable with what they bought and it won't be an issue at all. I don't collect the older cards so I don't have a real opinion that counts but on newer cards it certainly wouldn't be good for them in most cases. |
#1012
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Sure it has some value but a fraction of the face value based on the flip, so that isn't really much of a difference IMO. And I would guess there are 10 or more trimmed cards in holders for every bad auto or maybe a lot more.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 03-28-2019 at 07:02 PM. |
#1013
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You also cited a high grade blue chip card to make your singular point. Well played. |
#1014
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#1015
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The PSA division of Collectors Universe did $21,065,000 in revenue for 2018 and SGC is a fraction of their size. I think $1,500,000 might be generous and if not it isn't too far off.
Last edited by Dpeck100; 03-28-2019 at 08:03 PM. Reason: Added Collectors Universe to make clear PSA and PSA/DNA combined |
#1016
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That number seems a lot more in line with what I would expect. 10 years max based on the 20 to 1 revenue. If PSA were smart they would buy them out and shut the brand down while they have opportunity.
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#1017
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Beginning of the end...
Hopefully the beginning of the end for this poorly run franchise.
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Frank Evanov |
#1018
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If SGC shuts down/gets bought out, I would expect another entrant into the graded card market. It is ripe for a franchise that uses computer vision to grade cards, with more precise and repeatable results. I would not be surprised if that entrant was PWCC, with the way they have been expanding their presence and offerings.
FWIW
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Working Sets: Baseball- T206 SLers - Virginia League (-1) 1952 Topps - low numbers (-1) 1954 Bowman (-3) 1964 Topps Giants auto'd (-2) |
#1019
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PWCC's entire push is "eye appeal" value increases, why would they become a grading company themselves. They'd have to switch their mindset to technical grading parameters again.
And while a whole bunch of people theoretically want computer grading to be a thing and assume the market will react favorably to it, most submitters want 1) uniformity in their collection (PSA set registry, SGC gasket holders, BGS thick protective holders, whatever), 2) more money for their sales, and 3) better grades. Those three companies have amazing "first mover" advantages over any startup, because submitters trust all three of those companies with cards valued at a million dollars apiece. I guess that would be one reason PWCC would be a theoretical entrant: they already have the market's trust. I've offered this before, but if the highest graded vintage card would only grade an 8.5 due to being compared to modern chrome production (card stock variances, slightly off registration, slight rough cuts, etc), why would anyone send their NM-MT or better cards to this new company doing computer grading? When 90% of your market already has a grader of choice and has sunk costs of all previous grading fees and time spent cultivating their registry, why would anyone send them 1975 commons to make a complete set? I don't see a computer grading company getting traction.
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-- PWCC: The Fish Stinks From the Head PSA: Regularly Get Cheated BGS: Can't detect trimming on modern SGC: Closed auto authentication business JSA: Approved same T206 Autos before SGC Oh, what a difference a year makes. |
#1020
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Please raise your hand if you're a dealer who "does not buy SGC cards"
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Please visit my website at http://t206.monkberry.com/index.html |
#1021
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Quote:
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Successful B/S/T deals with asoriano, obcbobd, x2dRich2000, eyecollectvintage, RepublicaninMass, Kwikford, Oneofthree67, jfkheat, scottglevy, whitehse, GoldenAge50s, Peter Spaeth, Northviewcats, megalimey, BenitoMcNamara, Edwolf1963, mightyq, sidepocket, darwinbulldog, jasonc, jessejames, sb1, rjackson44, bobbyw8469, quinnsryche, Carter08, philliesfan and ALBB, Buythatcard and JimmyC so far. |
#1022
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Quote:
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 03-29-2019 at 06:26 AM. |
#1023
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Quote:
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#1024
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Just like there are dealers who wont touch grade A, OC, MK, half grades or cards with paper loss. There is high price cobb for sale and it has been treated like the black plague for a year, dealers and collectors alike, but those I have talked to say 3 years. As far as attempting to debunk my comments, I do encourage you at the next shows you go to observe what dealers only have PSA cards in their cases and ask them. That is where you will find the answer to your question. |
#1025
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Agree
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I sell vintage cards in SGC and PSA holders at every Philly show and at each Chantilly show. I've never had a dealer say they don't buy SGC cards, not once. Buy the card, not the holder. Last edited by OldOriole; 03-29-2019 at 10:11 AM. |
#1026
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Plus why would they refuse? They may try to pay less, but like I said above, take a look at the SGC and PSA 6 Matty portraits and the SGC and PSA 5 Johnson portraits in REA last weekend. SGC did better.
https://bid.robertedwardauctions.com...searchin=title https://bid.robertedwardauctions.com...searchin=title
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Galleries and Articles about T206 Player Autographs www.SignedT206.com www.instagram.com/signedT206/ @SignedT206 |
#1027
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707 as best I know is virtually exclusively PSA. I think 4SC is similar.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#1028
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I didn't pose a question. I've been setting up at shows, including the National for 25 years. I've never heard any dealer decline to purchase a card just because it's in an SGC holder. Undoubtedly many prefer PSA and may even sell only PSA cards, but no rational vendor would walk away from a purchase on which he could make a profit, regardless of the holder.
__________________
Please visit my website at http://t206.monkberry.com/index.html |
#1029
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That idea is certainly worthy of attention.
__________________
Successful transactions on Net54 with balltrash, greenmonster66; Peter_Spaeth; robw1959; Stetson_1883; boxcar18; Blackie |
#1030
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In most cases it is fair to say their buy price certainly isn't equal. The last SGC card I bought I paid $56 for and the same grade for the card in a PSA holder would sell for at least $350 or higher. The spread is extremely wide in many cases so coming up with a number that works would be very tough. PSA is just drastically more popular for most cards. |
#1031
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That's for sure [cough, sputter, stage whisper] DiMaggio card.
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Read my blog; it will make all your dreams come true. https://adamstevenwarshaw.substack.com/ Or not... Last edited by Exhibitman; 03-29-2019 at 01:06 PM. |
#1033
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4SC is not. I've purchased SGC cards from them.
__________________
Read my blog; it will make all your dreams come true. https://adamstevenwarshaw.substack.com/ Or not... |
#1034
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Gone... until registration is verified. Generic voice mail not left and PM sent with no response.
Two in one thread, it might be a record. We will see. I hope I come back and say this person verified registration. I am not going to hold my breath though. Quote:
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Leon Luckey Last edited by Leon; 03-29-2019 at 02:09 PM. |
#1035
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Any news on the forger? Peter Nash? Manny? Have any more forgeries been found? Can’t let this guy get away with it.
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#1036
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The updates are . I think the investigation is still ongoing, from a reliable source in the last few days......No idea on Peter Nash but one can only hope he changes his ways. Manny, the OP, has never wanted to verify who he is so he is still gone. And another member also bit the dust due to registration issues, MichelaTorres83 Yes, I think we all hope the forger is caught. .
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Leon Luckey |
#1037
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Cue the background Queen music
And another one gone another one gone another one bites the dust...
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Seeking Type 1 photos especially Ruth I still love the hobby |
#1038
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Any updates? Seems like the Muller probe didn't take this long!
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#1039
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Quote:
.
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Leon Luckey |
#1040
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I haven’t heard any news either (other than the forger doesn’t seem to have moved to postwar, at least not yet) but I’m not sure two banishments in one thread is a record; I remember a few of Joey Farino’s threads ending with multiple bans, and he was usually one of them.
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Signed 1953 Topps set: 264/274 (96.35 %) |
#1041
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What is the current state of the market for signed T206? Are collectors avoiding them, or are they taking the ostrich with his head in the sand approach and pretending that they are all good because they are slabbed? I don't follow these at all, so I have no idea what's doing.
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#1042
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Seems as though that signed pre war hasn’t been as plentiful as it was a year or so ago where it seemed every auction had a lot of signed cards. People are probably just lying low until it blows over and then the cycle will start over again.
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#1043
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Seriously. |
#1044
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Are these fake signed cards considered Altered or refurbished
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#1045
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They are considered "preserved", as it is 'preserving' the area under the fake signature.
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#1046
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I think it's fair to say that people are just holding tight for now, but also remember that nearly all of the signed T206 cards to hit REA, Hunt and Clean Sweep between 2015 and 2018 have been found to be forgeries. That's a huge portion of the overall population, so there is obviously a lot less supply to contend with, even if you accept that demand has gone down as a result of this scandal.
__________________
Galleries and Articles about T206 Player Autographs www.SignedT206.com www.instagram.com/signedT206/ @SignedT206 |
#1047
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With the current scandal that has been uncovered regarding PSA, was there ever any resolution with regards to this situation? It seems to have faded away.
__________________
Contact me if you have any Dave Kingman cards / memorabilia for sale. |
#1048
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Yep, who actually wrote the checks? PSA's grade guarantee does not cover autograph authentication misses. So if they wrote the check for the one they certified, that is an interesting precedent.
__________________
-- PWCC: The Fish Stinks From the Head PSA: Regularly Get Cheated BGS: Can't detect trimming on modern SGC: Closed auto authentication business JSA: Approved same T206 Autos before SGC Oh, what a difference a year makes. |
#1049
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If you remove the signed T206 cards that made their way to REA, Hunt and Clean Sweep from 2015 through 2018, most of which were forgeries, there really haven't been very many signed T206 cards on the market in the past 10 years. I would guess you will see very few new ones popping up going forward, which would also keep the public dialogue to a minimum. Having said that, if you combine this scandal with the PSA/PWCC scandal it's obvious that the issue of baseball card fraud, signed or otherwise, being "condoned" by third-party authenticators, is doing anything but "fading away." Maybe it's because so much of my collection is based on signed pre-1916 cards, but every PSA/PWCC post rings so true to me, and I am holding out hope that, as a result of all of this mess, TPGs will make significant improvements with how they do business in our hobby, signed and unsigned cards alike.
__________________
Galleries and Articles about T206 Player Autographs www.SignedT206.com www.instagram.com/signedT206/ @SignedT206 Last edited by T206Collector; 06-03-2019 at 03:57 PM. |
#1050
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This seems to be getting lost with trimming scandal. What ever happened with the investigation?
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