NonSports Forum

Net54baseball.com
Welcome to Net54baseball.com. These forums are devoted to both Pre- and Post- war baseball cards and vintage memorabilia, as well as other sports. There is a separate section for Buying, Selling and Trading - the B/S/T area!! If you write anything concerning a person or company your full name needs to be in your post or obtainable from it. . Contact the moderator at leon@net54baseball.com should you have any questions or concerns. When you click on links to eBay on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network. Enjoy!
Net54baseball.com
Net54baseball.com
ebay GSB
T206s on eBay
Babe Ruth Cards on eBay
t206 Ty Cobb on eBay
Ty Cobb Cards on eBay
Lou Gehrig Cards on eBay
Baseball T201-T217 on eBay
Baseball E90-E107 on eBay
T205 Cards on eBay
Baseball Postcards on eBay
Goudey Cards on eBay
Baseball Memorabilia on eBay
Baseball Exhibit Cards on eBay
Baseball Strip Cards on eBay
Baseball Baking Cards on eBay
Sporting News Cards on eBay
Play Ball Cards on eBay
Joe DiMaggio Cards on eBay
Mickey Mantle Cards on eBay
Bowman 1951-1955 on eBay
Football Cards on eBay

Go Back   Net54baseball.com Forums > Net54baseball Main Forum - WWII & Older Baseball Cards > Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #451  
Old 05-23-2019, 01:51 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 32,057
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Republicaninmass View Post
Sorry, did you just take the name from Goudey77s post? Maybe it was him. I know he was mentioned earlier.
I think Chuck and I had a brief exchange about him.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/

He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt.
Reply With Quote
  #452  
Old 05-23-2019, 01:54 PM
barrysloate barrysloate is offline
Barry Sloate
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Posts: 8,293
Default

I can't believe that someone would actually pay 3k for a Look n See card of Benedict Arnold. Why?
Reply With Quote
  #453  
Old 05-23-2019, 01:57 PM
vintagetoppsguy vintagetoppsguy is offline
D@v!d J@m3s
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 5,981
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by barrysloate View Post
I can't believe that someone would actually pay 3k for a Look n See card of Benedict Arnold. Why?
Why would Topps make a card of Benedict Arnold?
Reply With Quote
  #454  
Old 05-23-2019, 01:57 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 32,057
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by barrysloate View Post
I can't believe that someone would actually pay 3k for a Look n See card of Benedict Arnold. Why?
You know the answer to that Barry.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/

He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt.
Reply With Quote
  #455  
Old 05-23-2019, 01:58 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 32,057
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy View Post
Why would Topps make a card of Benedict Arnold?
It betrays a certain callousness, eh?
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/

He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt.
Reply With Quote
  #456  
Old 05-23-2019, 02:03 PM
perezfan's Avatar
perezfan perezfan is offline
M@RK ST€!NBERG
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 7,867
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by barrysloate View Post
I can't believe that someone would actually pay 3k for a Look n See card of Benedict Arnold. Why?
Because these people would buy a loose turd, if it were properly slabbed and assigned an ultra-high numeric grade. This type of collector needs the validation of a 3rd party, and has little ability to think for themselves. And conveniently enough, there's an easy way to turn a profit at their expense.

It's the current-day example of "The Emperor's Clothes". Hopefully with time, that will change.

Last edited by perezfan; 05-23-2019 at 02:10 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #457  
Old 05-23-2019, 02:07 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 32,057
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by perezfan View Post
Because these people would buy a loose turd, if it were properly slabbed and assigned an ultra-high numeric grade. This type of collector needs the validation of a 3rd party, and has little ability to think for themselves. And conveniently enough, there's an easy way to turn a profit at their expense.

It's the current-day example of "The Emperor's Clothes". Hopefully, that will change.
More than likely it's a registry-driven purchase, I would think.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/

He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt.
Reply With Quote
  #458  
Old 05-23-2019, 02:09 PM
pokerplyr80's Avatar
pokerplyr80 pokerplyr80 is offline
je.sse @rnot
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: California
Posts: 3,915
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by frankbmd View Post
There are certainly Net54 consignors to PWCC.

Can any of them come forward and verify that one of their consignments, that they truly believe is unaltered and unconserved, received a sticker from Brent?

Or are the stickers reserved for the select, elite (?) consignors?
I am not an elite consignor as far as I'm aware. I had a card receive a certified high end designation under the old system that I never altered and showed no obvious signs of alteration or conservation.
__________________
Successful transactions with peter spaeth, don's cards, vwtdi, wolf441, 111gecko, Clydewally, Jim, SPMIDD, MattyC, jmb, botn, E107collector, begsu1013, and a few others.
Reply With Quote
  #459  
Old 05-23-2019, 02:14 PM
barrysloate barrysloate is offline
Barry Sloate
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Posts: 8,293
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by perezfan View Post
Because these people would buy a loose turd, if it were properly slabbed and assigned an ultra-high numeric grade. This type of collector needs the validation of a 3rd party, and has little ability to think for themselves. And conveniently enough, there's an easy way to turn a profit at their expense.

It's a current-day example of "The Emperor's Clothes". Hopefully with time, that will change.
Agreed, and think about this for a moment. The card was graded an 8 and someone paid fifty bucks for it. No problem there.

Then a card doctor ruins it by slicing off the left border, PSA misses it entirely, if anything it looks worse after defacement, and now the value increases sixty-fold. Does everyone recognize how effing ridiculous this is?
Reply With Quote
  #460  
Old 05-23-2019, 02:19 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 32,057
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by barrysloate View Post
Agreed, and think about this for a moment. The card was graded an 8 and someone paid fifty bucks for it. No problem there.

Then a card doctor ruins it by slicing off the left border, PSA misses it entirely, if anything it looks worse after defacement, and now the value increases sixty-fold. Does everyone recognize how effing ridiculous this is?
Nope.

Welcome to the Registry, son.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/

He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt.

Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 05-23-2019 at 02:19 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #461  
Old 05-23-2019, 02:25 PM
perezfan's Avatar
perezfan perezfan is offline
M@RK ST€!NBERG
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 7,867
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by barrysloate View Post
Agreed, and think about this for a moment. The card was graded an 8 and someone paid fifty bucks for it. No problem there.

Then a card doctor ruins it by slicing off the left border, PSA misses it entirely, if anything it looks worse after defacement, and now the value increases sixty-fold. Does everyone recognize how effing ridiculous this is?
Yeah, you're absolutely right...

"Emperor's Clothes" was too mild. "Mindless Sheep" is more in-line with that insane valuation.

Whether it's the Registry, competitive greed, or just plain stupidity, PT Barnum would be beaming!

Last edited by perezfan; 05-23-2019 at 02:30 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #462  
Old 05-23-2019, 02:30 PM
barrysloate barrysloate is offline
Barry Sloate
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Posts: 8,293
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
Nope.

Welcome to the Registry, son.
I knew you were going to say that. I know it's the registry, but it's still dumb. Fact is, the card looks really ugly and if I were grading the truncated version I would never give it a 9. What a crock.
Reply With Quote
  #463  
Old 05-23-2019, 02:35 PM
vintagetoppsguy vintagetoppsguy is offline
D@v!d J@m3s
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 5,981
Default

A lot of people (especially the old timers) say that grading has hurt the hobby. As much as I hate grading, I disagree with that. But I do think the Registry has hurt the hobby.
Reply With Quote
  #464  
Old 05-23-2019, 02:42 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 32,057
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by barrysloate View Post
I knew you were going to say that. I know it's the registry, but it's still dumb. Fact is, the card looks really ugly and if I were grading the truncated version I would never give it a 9. What a crock.
It's ... wait for it .... pretty obviously short. You don't really need to measure it I don't think, the unconscious mind rejects it automatically, the Malcolm Gladwell "Blink" thing.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/

He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt.
Reply With Quote
  #465  
Old 05-23-2019, 03:24 PM
Paul S Paul S is offline
P. Sp.ec.tor
member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Landlocked by High Toll Fees
Posts: 2,150
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by barrysloate View Post
I can't believe that someone would actually pay 3k for a Look n See card of Benedict Arnold. Why?
Uh, because someone in 2019 would pay 3k?
Reply With Quote
  #466  
Old 05-23-2019, 07:01 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 32,057
Default

Mercy, again.
A few more of these and I'm joining David James in the conspiracy camp lol.


https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=1539
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/

He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt.

Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 05-23-2019 at 07:02 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #467  
Old 05-23-2019, 07:20 PM
vintagetoppsguy vintagetoppsguy is offline
D@v!d J@m3s
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 5,981
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
Mercy, again.
A few more of these and I'm joining David James in the conspiracy camp lol.


https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=1539
Do you think there will be a lot more to follow, or are we nearing the end of the bunch?
Reply With Quote
  #468  
Old 05-23-2019, 07:22 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 32,057
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy View Post
Do you think there will be a lot more to follow, or are we nearing the end of the bunch?
I am pretty confident there will be another major opus on the modern side soon. I really have no idea on the vintage side. I suspect there is lots more for these guys to look at as they haven't been at it that long and there's a ton of cards, but we'll see.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/

He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt.

Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 05-23-2019 at 07:23 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #469  
Old 05-24-2019, 04:20 AM
calvindog's Avatar
calvindog calvindog is offline
Jeffrey Lichtman
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 5,718
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
I am pretty confident there will be another major opus on the modern side soon. I really have no idea on the vintage side. I suspect there is lots more for these guys to look at as they haven't been at it that long and there's a ton of cards, but we'll see.
There’s more coming. The work being done on Blowout is really extraordinary but it’s being done by just a few people. I understand that more are getting involved though, including some former Net 54 members! I think Brent will have an interesting National if he decides to attend.
Reply With Quote
  #470  
Old 05-24-2019, 06:18 AM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 32,057
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by calvindog View Post
There’s more coming. The work being done on Blowout is really extraordinary but it’s being done by just a few people. I understand that more are getting involved though, including some former Net 54 members! I think Brent will have an interesting National if he decides to attend.
How could he not attend?
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/

He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt.
Reply With Quote
  #471  
Old 05-24-2019, 06:21 AM
Rhotchkiss's Avatar
Rhotchkiss Rhotchkiss is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 4,440
Default

Jeff, I know you do criminal defense, but any chance of putting together a class action (or know anyone who could/would)? It seems to me that the odds of a formal criminal investigation is fairly low. But some retribution should occur here. Clearly countless people have been harmed civilly, and a torts lawyer could find many torts/causes of action here. With a lower burden of proof and a potentially more-damning result (hit them all in the wallet), it seems to me a that a class action/civil suit could be very effective, and could kick-start a criminal investigation too.

For me, its just getting to the point where I am convinced there is a very substantial chance that bad stuff happened here and people have been harmed, and there should be some investigation (and penalty) either by the law or courts. The courts -- through civil suit - seems the quickest and most effective means.

Ryan Hotchkiss

Last edited by Rhotchkiss; 05-24-2019 at 07:02 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #472  
Old 05-24-2019, 06:29 AM
iowadoc77 iowadoc77 is offline
Eric
Eric
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Iowa
Posts: 1,634
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
How could he not attend?
I can not imagine him not attending. That being said, it certainly is a possibility. I think, as has been stated, that the average collector still likely does not know about all of this. And if they don’t know, then they don’t care, and we will see lines to consign at the PWCC series of tables.
__________________
Seeking Type 1 photos especially Ruth
I still love the hobby
Reply With Quote
  #473  
Old 05-24-2019, 06:30 AM
judsonhamlin judsonhamlin is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Scenic Central NJ
Posts: 1,022
Default

There are a couple of questions that I don't think have been answered (and they may not be without subpoenas or warrants)-

-what percentage of submission by the 'doctors' are getting through? Given the profit margins, I would imagine there is an acceptable level of loss (cards rejected by PSA). The answer would, to me, be the distinction between buffoonery/incompetence and outright collusion.
-are these cards being reviewed by the same grader(s) and supervisors? Again, the difference between incompetence and collusion, either with or without the knowledge of corporate officials.
-how were these cards submitted? In person/mail? And what kind of follow-up communication took place about those submissions?

Just some thoughts
Reply With Quote
  #474  
Old 05-24-2019, 06:34 AM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 32,057
Default

Mercy.
https://www.facebook.com/pristinecards/

I don't have an account but here is one of the comments reproduced on Blowout.

Pristine Card Cleaners
We get higher grades on cards all the time. The ONE thing we can not control is centering so 9 or 8.5 centered cards are tough. We have been able to get a gem on 9 centered cards because the surface, edges and corners have to be on point. The vintage cards are tougher because of the paper they used then and the overall age of the card. Can we improve them....yes but it is not taking a 1920 tobacco card from a 2 to a 6. The newer cards are usually littered with printing issues to the edges, surface and sometimes corners. These cards SHOULD be pristine but through the manufacturing process they are not. That's why you see photos of those because it is the largest portion of the speculator market and grades really impact the value of the cards.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/

He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt.
Reply With Quote
  #475  
Old 05-24-2019, 06:37 AM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 32,057
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss View Post
Jeff, I know you do criminal defense, but any chance of putting together a class action (or know anyone who could/would)? It seems to me that the odds of a formal criminal investigation is fairly low. But some retribution should occur here. Clearly countless people have been harmed civilly, and a torts lawyer could find many torts/causes of action here. With a lower burden of proof and a potentially more-damning result (hit them all in the wallet), it seems to me a that a class action/civil suit could be very effective, and could kick-start a criminal investigation too.

For me, its just getting to the point where I am convinced there is a very substantial chance that bad stuff happened here and people have been harmed, and there should be some investigation (and penalty) either by the law or courts. The courts -- through civil suit - seems the quickest and most effective means.
Who has been harmed, what are the damages, and perhaps most importantly, how would you identify them? And who do you propose to sue?
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/

He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt.

Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 05-24-2019 at 06:39 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #476  
Old 05-24-2019, 06:40 AM
calvindog's Avatar
calvindog calvindog is offline
Jeffrey Lichtman
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 5,718
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss View Post
Jeff, I know you do criminal defense, but any chance of putting together a class action (or know anyone who could/would)? It seems to me that the odds of a formal criminal investigation is fairly low. But some retribution should occur here. Clearly countless people have been harmed civilly, and a torts lawyer could find many torts/causes of action here. With a lower burden of proof and a potentially more-damning result (hit them all in the wallet), it seems to me a that a class action/civil suit could be very effective, and could kick-start a criminal investigation too.

For me, its just getting to the point where I am convinced there is a very substantial chance that bad stuff happened here and people have been harmed, and there should be some investigation (and penalty) either by the law or courts. The courts -- through civil suit - seems the quickest and most effective means.
First, I’d disagree with you strongly on the chances of a criminal investigation. Strongly.

Next, Ive sued Mastro and Doug and they folded in a matter of days. With Brent, he’d be forced in litigation to turn over his emails, records, etc. and I can’t imagine he’s that crazy, although who knows. Peter does class actions and presuming we could slow down his posting output, and I’d happily help him on such a case. The more I think about it the more I’d be interested in such a case.
Reply With Quote
  #477  
Old 05-24-2019, 06:41 AM
calvindog's Avatar
calvindog calvindog is offline
Jeffrey Lichtman
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 5,718
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
Who has been harmed, what are the damages, and perhaps most importantly, how would you identify them? And who do you propose to sue?
Pretty sure we can get there.
Reply With Quote
  #478  
Old 05-24-2019, 06:42 AM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 32,057
Default

His emails, texts, etc. might be ... uh ... interesting.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/

He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt.
Reply With Quote
  #479  
Old 05-24-2019, 06:43 AM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 32,057
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by calvindog View Post
Pretty sure we can get there.
Maybe, I was just looking to see what Ryan had in mind, is it PWCC, TPGs, Gary, etc.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/

He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt.
Reply With Quote
  #480  
Old 05-24-2019, 06:48 AM
MULLINS5 MULLINS5 is offline
Patr1ck Mu111N5
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 262
Default

I've read in multiple threads on more than one forum that Brent sent cards to PSA on behalf of Gary Moser. Is this true or is it conspiracy stuff? I'm hoping the latter. If true then that's the strongest piece of evidence that Brent/PWCC is complicit in the fraud. I remember reading about how Joe Orlando quit collecting when he took his position at PSA. That should be the same for Brent. It's harsh, but someone in that big of a position should not be a collector or subbing anything to any grading company.
Reply With Quote
  #481  
Old 05-24-2019, 06:50 AM
calvindog's Avatar
calvindog calvindog is offline
Jeffrey Lichtman
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 5,718
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
Maybe, I was just looking to see what Ryan had in mind, is it PWCC, TPGs, Gary, etc.
Just PWCC.
Reply With Quote
  #482  
Old 05-24-2019, 06:52 AM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 32,057
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MULLINS5 View Post
I've read in multiple threads on more than one forum that Brent sent cards to PSA on behalf of Gary Moser. Is this true or is it conspiracy stuff? I'm hoping the latter. If true then that's the strongest piece of evidence that Brent/PWCC is complicit in the fraud. I remember reading about how Joe Orlando quit collecting when he took his position at PSA. That should be the same for Brent. It's harsh, but someone in that big of a position should not be a collector or subbing anything to any grading company.
AHs do it all the time for consignors. I don't have a problem with it if the cards are not doctored and the consignors are not card doctors. Isn't that the real problem?
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/

He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt.
Reply With Quote
  #483  
Old 05-24-2019, 06:53 AM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 32,057
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by calvindog View Post
Just PWCC.
The more narrowly focused, the better then.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/

He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt.
Reply With Quote
  #484  
Old 05-24-2019, 06:56 AM
calvindog's Avatar
calvindog calvindog is offline
Jeffrey Lichtman
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 5,718
Default

Why make it more complicated than it has to be? Go after the head of the snake.
Reply With Quote
  #485  
Old 05-24-2019, 06:57 AM
Rhotchkiss's Avatar
Rhotchkiss Rhotchkiss is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 4,440
Default

Thanks for the reply guys. I have deleted this last post, but happy to talk offline - PM me.

Ryan

Last edited by Rhotchkiss; 05-24-2019 at 07:05 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #486  
Old 05-24-2019, 07:02 AM
frankbmd's Avatar
frankbmd frankbmd is offline
Fr@nk Burke++
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Between the 1st tee and the 19th hole
Posts: 7,391
Default

Pristine Card Cleaners appears to operate out of Athens, GA according to the Facebook entries.
__________________
FRANK:BUR:KETT - RAUCOUS SPORTS CARD FORUM MEMBER AND MONSTER NUMBER FATHER.

GOOD FOR THE HOBBY AND THE FORUM WITH A VAULT IN AN UNDISCLOSED LOCATION FILLED WITH NON-FUNGIBLES


274/1000 Monster Number


Nearly*1000* successful B/S/T transactions completed from 2012 to 2024.
Over 680 sales with satisfied Board members served.
If you want fries with your order, just speak up.
Thank you all.



Now nearly PQ.
Reply With Quote
  #487  
Old 05-24-2019, 07:03 AM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 32,057
Default

Hopefully one could come up with a wider class than just limited to specific identified cards, the money is always in a large class. As long as you're not talking a crusade against BGS/PSA which was my initial concern about your post, and are focused on a specific defendant where it looks like some good evidence has been outed already, that's a better suit to consider.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/

He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt.

Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 05-24-2019 at 07:04 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #488  
Old 05-24-2019, 07:06 AM
Republicaninmass Republicaninmass is offline
T3d $h3rm@n
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 8,435
Default

Brent better conserve his Asset, he could get altered in the can.

Pre
War
Card
Cutter/cleaner
__________________
"Trolling Ebay right now" ©

Always looking for signed 1952 topps as well as variations and errors

Last edited by Republicaninmass; 05-24-2019 at 07:11 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #489  
Old 05-24-2019, 07:07 AM
steve B steve B is offline
Steve Birmingham
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: eastern Mass.
Posts: 8,229
Default

Could the argument be made that we have all been harmed in one way or another?
The people with the money and inclination have bought things that were altered to be something they aren't, and have paid very high prices to do that.
That in turn had raised the prices of lower condition cards, sometimes to the point that collectors on lower budgets can't afford them at all. Not because the cards have increased in value naturally, but because the overall price has been inflated by the false grades.

I suppose the opposite argument could be made, that a great many of us have benefited from the false high prices, being able to sell our cards for more. That doesn't work for me, mostly because I seldom sell anything, but to me it seems that many collectors regularly turn stuff to follow other interests in the hobby.
Reply With Quote
  #490  
Old 05-24-2019, 07:09 AM
Kenny Cole Kenny Cole is offline
Kenny Cole
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Norman, OK
Posts: 1,393
Default

I presume the class would be filed in Oregon, correct? Would it just be for in-state collectors or would it be a nationwide class with CAFA implications? I don't know anything about the federal district judges in Oregon, but here certifying a national class, particularly of fraud victims, would be pretty difficult IMO.
Reply With Quote
  #491  
Old 05-24-2019, 07:10 AM
steve B steve B is offline
Steve Birmingham
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: eastern Mass.
Posts: 8,229
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
Hopefully one could come up with a wider class than just limited to specific identified cards, the money is always in a large class. As long as you're not talking a crusade against BGS/PSA which was my initial concern about your post, and are focused on a specific defendant where it looks like some good evidence has been outed already, that's a better suit to consider.
Assuming you got as far as discovery, and that there was information that confirmed the conspiracy theories, would you then pursue PSA and/or BGS as well?
Reply With Quote
  #492  
Old 05-24-2019, 07:15 AM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 32,057
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Cole View Post
I presume the class would be filed in Oregon, correct? Would it just be for in-state collectors or would it be a nationwide class with CAFA implications? I don't know anything about the federal district judges in Oregon, but here certifying a national class, particularly of fraud victims, would be pretty difficult IMO.
I've thought about it for all of five minutes. But I've certainly LOST motions to limit classes to a particular state.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/

He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt.
Reply With Quote
  #493  
Old 05-24-2019, 07:15 AM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 32,057
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by steve B View Post
Assuming you got as far as discovery, and that there was information that confirmed the conspiracy theories, would you then pursue PSA and/or BGS as well?
I have no clue at this point, at this point I'm just responding to a post on a message board.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/

He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt.
Reply With Quote
  #494  
Old 05-24-2019, 07:37 AM
steve B steve B is offline
Steve Birmingham
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: eastern Mass.
Posts: 8,229
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
I have no clue at this point, at this point I'm just responding to a post on a message board.

Fair enough, just a hypothetical that was probably too broad.

Ruining a card doctor and or someone aiding that would be a start, but if a grading company was knowingly letting stuff by, I'd hope they would be dealt with too.
Reply With Quote
  #495  
Old 05-24-2019, 07:39 AM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 32,057
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by steve B View Post
Fair enough, just a hypothetical that was probably too broad.

Ruining a card doctor and or someone aiding that would be a start, but if a grading company was knowingly letting stuff by, I'd hope they would be dealt with too.
I would hope that they find a way to deal with it themselves, in the first place. But we'll see.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/

He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt.
Reply With Quote
  #496  
Old 05-24-2019, 08:05 AM
calvindog's Avatar
calvindog calvindog is offline
Jeffrey Lichtman
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 5,718
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by peter_spaeth View Post
i would hope that they find a way to deal with it themselves, in the first place. But we'll see.
lol!
Reply With Quote
  #497  
Old 05-24-2019, 09:10 AM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 32,057
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by iowadoc77 View Post
I can not imagine him not attending. That being said, it certainly is a possibility. I think, as has been stated, that the average collector still likely does not know about all of this. And if they don’t know, then they don’t care, and we will see lines to consign at the PWCC series of tables.
Yeah I mean just look at some of the people here who seem, what's the word, unmoved (?) by all that's been revealed and continues to be revealed.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/

He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt.
Reply With Quote
  #498  
Old 05-24-2019, 09:59 AM
conor912's Avatar
conor912 conor912 is offline
C0nor D0na.hue
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 3,188
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by calvindog View Post
Why make it more complicated than it has to be? Go after the head of the snake.
"What are you gonna do, LaChance? Shoot us all?

No, Ace. Just you."
__________________
Items for sale or trade here UPDATED 3-16-18
Reply With Quote
  #499  
Old 05-24-2019, 10:27 AM
drcy's Avatar
drcy drcy is offline
David Ru.dd Cycl.eback
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 3,484
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MULLINS5 View Post
I've read in multiple threads on more than one forum that Brent sent cards to PSA on behalf of Gary Moser. Is this true or is it conspiracy stuff? I'm hoping the latter. If true then that's the strongest piece of evidence that Brent/PWCC is complicit in the fraud. I remember reading about how Joe Orlando quit collecting when he took his position at PSA. That should be the same for Brent. It's harsh, but someone in that big of a position should not be a collector or subbing anything to any grading company.
I know someone who, when he took a job in the price guide division at Beckett, was told he not buy and sell while he was working for them.

An auction house sending in cards for consigners to get graded is fine. Some consigners aren't experts or even collectors (grandpa's collection), and the AH does what it best for them. I've had non collectors who have stumbled upon something valuable, and I've recommended they consign it to one of the good auction houses and let the AH handle it all for them. In these and other cases, there's nothing unethical or problematic with the AH getting the cards graded or autographs authenticated for them-- part of the servce.

An AH submitting cards for someone they know been banned by the grading company from submitting for altering cards is obviously an issue, and, at the very least, the AH takes partial responsibility for any altered cards that have been submitted. If the AH is submitting cards for someone who has been banned (and the AH knows has been banned) from submitting, I don't now why (beyond the obvious $$ considerations, which, of course, is a big beyond in this hobby) the grading company wouldn't also ban the AH from submitting.

Last edited by drcy; 05-24-2019 at 10:39 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #500  
Old 05-24-2019, 10:33 AM
JRO$!( JRO$!( is offline
jt
member
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: vt
Posts: 91
Default Babe Ruth's dog Cloudland Dot...

Quote:
Originally Posted by perezfan View Post
Because these people would buy a loose turd, if it were properly slabbed and assigned an ultra-high numeric grade. This type of collector needs the validation of a 3rd party, and has little ability to think for themselves. And conveniently enough, there's an easy way to turn a profit at their expense.

It's the current-day example of "The Emperor's Clothes". Hopefully with time, that will change.
https://nationalpurebreddogday.com/t...mbino-and-dot/

I swear I was thinking that in 1923 Babe Ruth's dog Dot was seen evacuating in

the park and the leavings were collected and saved all these years, they

would grade/authenticate and encapsulate and make quite a profit

Scary but very possible...
Reply With Quote
Reply




Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Show your conservation/restoration projects aquarius31 Net54baseball Sports (Primarily) Vintage Memorabilia Forum incl. Game Used 30 04-21-2020 08:26 PM
Addiction defined Edward Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 21 07-25-2018 07:40 AM
History of Cuban Baseball Book and Paper conservation question Jason19th Net54baseball Sports (Primarily) Vintage Memorabilia Forum incl. Game Used 8 05-03-2009 03:07 PM
Card Alteration Archive Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 4 12-10-2006 06:49 PM
Question about card alteration Archive Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 1 10-24-2006 05:12 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:57 PM.


ebay GSB