|
#401
|
||||
|
||||
Inmate Abbott: “Hey Lou, what are you in for?
Inmate Costello: “Restoring cardboard, Bud” Bud: “You work for Waste Management?” Lou: “Naw, a smaller outfit up in Oregon.” Bud: “Oh, and what does the outfit do with the cardboard?” Lou: “They sell it......... to investors.” Bud: “What type of idiot invests in cardboard?” Lou: “You’ld be surprised. Big money involved.” Bud: “Where does the cardboard come from that you restore?” Lou: “I have to buy it, sometimes from the outfit in Oregon.” Bud: “And they buy it back?” Lou: “No, Bud, they sell it.” Bud: “To you?” Lou: “No, to the investors” Bud: “They ship the restored cardboard to the investors then.” Lou: “Wrong again, Bud, they put it in a vault.” Bud: “Then how do they protect the restored cardboard in the vault?” Lou: “They keep it in small plastic cases.” Bud: “So how did you get paid?” Lou: “Bud, I cut the cardboard in exchange for a cut of the resale profit.” Bud: “Fair enough, sort of an eye for an eye type deal. So why are you in jail? Is cutting cardboard illegal? Lou: “It depends, Bud. The outfit in Oregon stated in court that cutting to conserve was okay, but that cutting to alter was not.” Bud: “But you said you were in for restoring cardboard. Isn’t that conservation? Lou: “Go online and look at the evidence: one man’s conservation is another man’s alteration. There is not a clear cut difference, so to speak.” Bud: “Gee, that’s terrible, Lou.” Lou: “Yeah, 20 years is a stiff sentence for altering cardboard. By the way, Bud, what are you in for? Bud: “Certifying cardboard and putting it in plastic cases.” —————- to be continued ————
__________________
FRANK:BUR:KETT - RAUCOUS SPORTS CARD FORUM MEMBER AND MONSTER NUMBER FATHER. GOOD FOR THE HOBBY AND THE FORUM WITH A VAULT IN AN UNDISCLOSED LOCATION FILLED WITH NON-FUNGIBLES 274/1000 Monster Number Nearly*1000* successful B/S/T transactions completed from 2012 to 2024. Over 680 sales with satisfied Board members served. If you want fries with your order, just speak up. Thank you all. Now nearly PQ. Last edited by frankbmd; 05-18-2019 at 09:13 AM. |
#402
|
||||
|
||||
I’ve seen no evidence that PSA is crooked, i.e. graders being bribed. While it’s obvious that in such a sloppy company run by such a sloppy guy like Orlando, with such opportunities available, I always felt it possible. But without at least strong circumstantial or some direct evidence, I’d never come out and accuse them of fraud as I have with Brent and PWCC which I can easily say is a crooked operation, knee-deep in easily proven fraud. However, after seeing this before and after set of pics, what else can any objective person think? I mean that shit is crazy. Either Stevie Wonder is grading cards at PSA or something nefarious is going on. What else can it be?
__________________
http://www.flickr.com/photos/calvindog/sets Last edited by calvindog; 05-18-2019 at 09:10 AM. |
#403
|
|||
|
|||
Thanks for brightening my morning, Frank.
As I read it, I imagined the voices of Abbott and Costello. |
#404
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#405
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
|
#406
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
|
#407
|
||||
|
||||
Let's assume you're Joe O and let's assume you don't condone this, even tacitly. What do you do?
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#408
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
|
#409
|
|||
|
|||
Exactly what they are doing now. Nothing. Deny Deny Deny.
|
#410
|
||||
|
||||
I don't think so. GAI was a one or two person operation. PSA is a division of a public company. Not so easy to corrupt. But I have to admit I have no great explanation for some of these cards.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#411
|
||||
|
||||
Start hiring competent graders and training them. Which means start paying them more than you pay for the guy who works the fry machine at McDonalds.
__________________
http://www.flickr.com/photos/calvindog/sets |
#412
|
||||
|
||||
Plenty of public companies are corrupt. And PSA is not exactly run like a Fortune 500 company.
__________________
http://www.flickr.com/photos/calvindog/sets |
#413
|
||||
|
||||
I still think that's the problem and not people being bribed. Naïve? Maybe.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#414
|
||||
|
||||
The Mr. Jiggs gorilla who rode across my grammar school’s stage on a tricycle in the 70s could see how trimmed that card is.
__________________
http://www.flickr.com/photos/calvindog/sets Last edited by calvindog; 05-18-2019 at 11:08 AM. |
#415
|
|||
|
|||
Given all this we get cards graded because ..... ? It can't be trust, which is what PSA purported to sell. It can't be experience -- that ship has sailed. Protection? Maybe, although I don't know why an already altered card would need much protecting - how does or can its condition get worse than already altered? That leaves ... money and ego, which was EXACTLY what was actually being sold -- my card is better than yours. I hated grading when it started, exactly for the reasons stated here, kind of bought in to it later, and am now having to rethink it again. As Jeff said, having Stevie Wonder as the grader isn't designed to inspire too much confidence.
Man, this thread is depressing (but necessary) at so many levels. I guess I'll go look at some of my graded cards and try to figure out which ones don't deserve the grade they got. Reality sucks. At this point, I imagine I'm about as competent to do that as PSA's graders. That's really a sad commentary on the existing situation. |
#416
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
__________________
http://www.flickr.com/photos/calvindog/sets |
#417
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
|
#418
|
|||
|
|||
I get it. That's my conclusion too. How disappointing.
|
#419
|
||||
|
||||
It's a new world my friend, just ask Brent and his fan club and apologists. Cards are now "assets." Collectors are now "investors." Your closet, or maybe safe or safe deposit box, is now a friggin' "vault." Well, at least you aren't charged sales tax.
Oh, and alteration is now "conservation." LOL.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 05-18-2019 at 12:06 PM. |
#420
|
||||
|
||||
It's not just the registry IMO. It's a brand-wide effect now, just look as one small example at Jeter rookies. I guarantee you most guys aren't buying those to register them, but the gap with the other companies has widened substantially.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#421
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
|
#422
|
||||
|
||||
And the flip trumps stuff.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#423
|
|||
|
|||
It hurts me to agree with you. But I do.
|
#424
|
||||
|
||||
Note the date and time.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#425
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
Confessions of a Spurned Asset Trimmer receive?
__________________
FRANK:BUR:KETT - RAUCOUS SPORTS CARD FORUM MEMBER AND MONSTER NUMBER FATHER. GOOD FOR THE HOBBY AND THE FORUM WITH A VAULT IN AN UNDISCLOSED LOCATION FILLED WITH NON-FUNGIBLES 274/1000 Monster Number Nearly*1000* successful B/S/T transactions completed from 2012 to 2024. Over 680 sales with satisfied Board members served. If you want fries with your order, just speak up. Thank you all. Now nearly PQ. |
#426
|
|||
|
|||
10. 4 for the edges, 4 for the corners, 1 each for front and back
|
#427
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
How that gets a 9 is a complete mystery. (Or maybe not.... ) |
#428
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
The minimum charge for a stamp is $35, and only a guess on time with no guaranteed turnaround. And as far as I know the places doing the work aren't exactly begging for work. |
#429
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 05-18-2019 at 06:44 PM. |
#430
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
I sort of get the rush, I can't imagine an insurance company is happy if the expensive stuff stays in the building any longer than necessary. And Dealers of course want fast turnaround so their money isn't tied up any longer than it must be. Without changing the overall scheme, I don't see a way for things to change |
#431
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
There's that wonderful saying, I think it may be Spanish, slow down, we're in a hurry.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 05-18-2019 at 07:27 PM. |
#432
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
Then, several years ago, I was finally able to cut the cord with my concern of value. It took a while, but I got there, and it was extremely liberating. I cracked every single card I owned, including, but certainly not limited to, a '33G set and theT3 set I'm about half way done with. I started with the lowest dollar cards and kept working my way up. I realized that if I got up to a certain monetary value of card to where I just couldn't bring myself to crack it, then I couldn't comfortably afford that card and shouldn't own it. It's really easy to get caught up and start collecting beyond your means. Now my entire collection is raw and I've never been happier with it. Would it be hard to sell raw? Probably. Would I get a lot less? Sure. But those are monetary concerns, which I can't care about anymore. The cards are the same, in slabs or out. I've since met a lot of collectors who think the same (yes, they're out there!). Do I have some altered cards (oh, i mean conserved assets) in my collection? Probably. But if I can't tell, and I can let go of the monetary piece (I.e. collect within my means for pure joy), do I even care? If TPGs do nothing else, it's monger fear. Don't collect scared.
__________________
Items for sale or trade here UPDATED 3-16-18 |
#433
|
||||
|
||||
Last edited by Goudey77; 05-19-2019 at 01:51 PM. |
#434
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
|
#435
|
|||
|
|||
I listened to the first ten minutes of Brent's youtube video. Oh my oh my.
He differentiates alteration, which is an obvious attempt to improve a card, from conservation, which is a way to enhance a card without any of the work being detected. But what about the card doctors who alter cards with such skill that even the TPG's can't catch it? Doesn't that make it impossible to distinguish whether a card has been altered or conserved? After careful thought I think I can sum up this new approach in just two words: Oy gevalt. Last edited by barrysloate; 05-19-2019 at 02:32 PM. |
#436
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#437
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
Exceptional post!
__________________
"Trolling Ebay right now" © Always looking for signed 1952 topps as well as variations and errors |
#438
|
||||
|
||||
OK, I ended up watching the first ten minutes of that video. I see what Brent is trying to say, but I also see the significant problems with it. I don't collect art or comics, but I do dabble in a tiny bit of coin collecting. (I have one coin in my PCGS set registry.) In coins, people clean all of the time. In fact, you can pay your TPG a little more to do the cleaning for you. They add some chemicals, I think, and that removes some of the grime, etc from the coin. The coins still receive a number grade. This practice is mostly accepted by the coin community as far as I know, and people even like it after cleaning if their coins "shine" in a certain way that has some sort of nice color pattern.
So if you apply that practice to card collecting, that is basically saying that soaking with water is okay, and soaking with chemicals is somewhat okay if it is done right. This probably sounds reasonable to a generic collector although more experienced collectors will realize the problems with this. The bigger problem is what T206Collector states with post 42. That is, the public finds evidence that a card suddenly got a much higher grade after some "conservation." PWCC seems to be basically saying they are not going to withdraw that card from the market, and send it back to the TPG. They are going to say that is now a legit card with the higher grade because the changes weren't caught by the TPG. I have problems with that. That doesn't sound right. I think that most of the times when cards go up in grade is due to "corner sharpening," and I can't see how that is "conservation" although Brent mentions spooning. Here are some ways to improve a card's grade: (1) Water soaking to remove the card from being glued to a scrapbook. I think this is acceptable as conservation, and many people do this, and is generally accepted. Saying that I have heard of some paper stocks that will explode if removed from a holder after being soaked. That is, someone soaks the card. It gets encapsulated with a nice grade. Someone tries to remove the card from its plastic prison. Card explodes upon removal. I guess soaking wasn't conservation there. (2) Removing pencil marks from cards I was against this at first, but it looks like there is gradual movement in the hobby to allow this. What really bothered me was one case where a collector went to a TPG, and right in front of the TPG, they erased the offending pencil mark, and the TPG then went ahead and put the card in a holder with a higher grade. That just seemed wrong to me. That said, I'm coming around on thinking this is okay as long as the pencil mark didn't indent the card, and somehow this indenting wasn't removed also. Is that really conservation also? (3) Removing pen marks. Removing pen marks typically requires chemicals, and water soaking or erasure won't do it. Using chemicals on cards is typically a big no no in this hobby although it is allowed in other hobbies like coins if done right. Using chemicals on cards still bugs me. I think one part of it is the fear that although the chemicals may not damage the card in the short term, it may still be present in the paper stock, and damage the card over the longer term. That is, someone puts a chemical on a card, and it looks great! It gets holdered with a nice high grade. However, then over time, the card starts looking worse and worse in the holder because the chemicals are "eating away" at the card or something similar like discoloring it. (4) Corner sharpening. I just don't see how this can't be alteration. OK, fine you flip a corner over. The card goes from 2 to a 3 for the grade. I can live with that, and say it's not altered. However, many of the examples we see, the card goes to 7 or higher in grade. That's just not possible. It seems to me what's happening is flipping the corner over, then soaking and pressing. However, it seems to me, what happens is that unless paper stock was added (or the card was trimmed), that sharp corner is going to get unsharp in the future as the pressing wears out, and the corner comes apart. (5) Trimming. I'm assuming everyone agrees that trimming is alteration and not conservation. Saying that, it's generally allowed and accepted in hand cut cards or strip cards, where the card can still receive a number grade after this trimming. Anyway, I'm sure I'm missing some scenarios but just my initial thoughts on this topic. Last edited by glchen; 05-20-2019 at 02:37 AM. |
#439
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
Is Brent hoping the new buyer isn't aware of what is currently going on and therefore is taking the chance that he may never hear from the guy/girl ever again or is he going to tell the person, if they question it, that it has been "conserved"? I don't know about anyone else, but in light of what has currently been exposed, and the fact this card has been flagged and PWCC has been notified, don't you think, if you were a "reputable" and "trusted" selling entity/company that cares about it's customers and the hobby, that you'd take the card down? Forgot about that one! Quote:
I don't know, but if I had graded some/numerous types of cards then came across one that was a little smaller/shorter that moved around in the "Normal/Approved" slab that I've always used, I think I'd have another look at it to see what is going on first before placing it in this slightly smaller/internal sized slab, especially if this card appeared to good to be true for it's age.
__________________
52 Topps cards. https://www.flickr.com/photos/144160280@N05/ http://www.net54baseball.com/album.php?albumid=922 |
#440
|
||||
|
||||
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#441
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
|
#442
|
||||
|
||||
PSA needs to be held accountable. There must be 20 (or more) still uncovered examples for every one that has been detected. Most will never be uncovered.
If GAI went away, then PSA certainly should. This scandal is more problematic, as there are only two potential reasons for PSA's "mistakes"... Ineptitude or doing "favors". And neither one merits consumer trust (which is the entire reason for PSA's existence). Last edited by perezfan; 05-23-2019 at 12:12 PM. |
#443
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
|
#444
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#445
|
|||
|
|||
Alteration, conservation, doctoring or whatever you want to call it, at what point does it become illegal? It's not against the law to doctor a card. As unethical as it is, the cards belong to the owners and the owners are free to do with them whatever they choose - soak it in twenty different chemicals, trim it, draw a moustache on it or whatever. If it were illegal, Dick Towelle and others would already be out of business a long time ago.
So, at what point does it become illegal? Sending it to PSA for grading? Selling it without disclosing the work that was done? In other words, if a prosecutor was trying this case, what kind of charges would he pursue? What party would he bring the charges - the doctor, PSA, the consignor? Just curious and hoping some of the legal eagles could shed some light on what we hope is to come. |
#446
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
2nd time you've mentioned him. The one person who pubically writes what he does to cards for others. Not sure if he submits, and doubtful he auctions for others. Seems like you have an axe to grind.
__________________
"Trolling Ebay right now" © Always looking for signed 1952 topps as well as variations and errors Last edited by Republicaninmass; 05-23-2019 at 01:33 PM. |
#447
|
||||
|
||||
There might be other offenses involved, but certainly wire fraud and (if a catalog was involved) mail fraud. I would presume a prosecutor would charge anyone he or she thought could be convicted for "devising" or knowingly participating in the "scheme or artifice to defraud" which of course would depend on what evidence law enforcement gathered as to the various participants. So it's conjecture at this point, for me anyhow.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 05-23-2019 at 01:14 PM. |
#448
|
|||
|
|||
So the traitor got a trim... smh...
__________________
Successful B/S/T deals with asoriano, obcbobd, x2dRich2000, eyecollectvintage, RepublicaninMass, Kwikford, Oneofthree67, jfkheat, scottglevy, whitehse, GoldenAge50s, Peter Spaeth, Northviewcats, megalimey, BenitoMcNamara, Edwolf1963, mightyq, sidepocket, darwinbulldog, jasonc, jessejames, sb1, rjackson44, bobbyw8469, quinnsryche, Carter08, philliesfan and ALBB, Buythatcard and JimmyC so far. |
#449
|
|||
|
|||
2nd time? Please show me the first time.
|
#450
|
|||
|
|||
Sorry, did you just take the name from Goudey77s post? Maybe it was him. I know he was mentioned earlier.
__________________
"Trolling Ebay right now" © Always looking for signed 1952 topps as well as variations and errors |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Show your conservation/restoration projects | aquarius31 | Net54baseball Sports (Primarily) Vintage Memorabilia Forum incl. Game Used | 30 | 04-21-2020 08:26 PM |
Addiction defined | Edward | Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions | 21 | 07-25-2018 07:40 AM |
History of Cuban Baseball Book and Paper conservation question | Jason19th | Net54baseball Sports (Primarily) Vintage Memorabilia Forum incl. Game Used | 8 | 05-03-2009 03:07 PM |
Card Alteration | Archive | Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions | 4 | 12-10-2006 06:49 PM |
Question about card alteration | Archive | Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions | 1 | 10-24-2006 05:12 AM |