Fake Signed T206 Cards (Too Many to List in the Title, See First Post for List)

[MichelaiTorres83]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

I saw this on Facebook.

https://www.sportscollectorsdaily.co...RNzW29ps2fHznE


Looks like SGC is folding their auto business. You have to wonder if it is correlated to the happenings in this thread.

Unlikely. I believe it is partof their slow demise.

I don’t believe they will be in business 10 years from now.

You are sort of doomed when buyers and dealers won’t touch a card that they have graded.

The prices reflect that and people do not want to flip them to take losses.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by MichelaiTorres83

You are sort of doomed when buyers and dealers won’t touch a card that they have graded.

The prices reflect that and people do not want to flip them to take losses.

I don’t have many unsigned SGC graded cards any more, but the prices on SGC graded T206 cards in last week’s REA did very well, IMHO, surpassing PSA in some cases (e.g., T206 Johnson Portrait PSA 5 vs SGC 5).

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by MichelaiTorres83

Unlikely. I believe it is partof their slow demise.

I don’t believe they will be in business 10 years from now.

You are sort of doomed when buyers and dealers won’t touch a card that they have graded.

The prices reflect that and people do not want to flip them to take losses.

People won't touch SGC cards? Good to know. Though clearly I've been hallucinating looking at recent auctions.

http://www.milehighcardco.com/1952_T...-LOT62449.aspx

[MichelaiTorres83]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

People won't touch SGC cards? Good to know. Though clearly I've been hallucinating looking at recent auctions.

http://www.milehighcardco.com/1952_T...-LOT62449.aspx

Correct. You must be if you think one or two prices is reflective of a larger sentiment. When you try to sell a card and dealers tell you without looking at it or caring what card it is that they “do not buy sgc cards” thats a big deal.

You also cited a high grade blue chip card to make your singular point. Well played.

[edhans]

Originally Posted by MichelaiTorres83

When you try to sell a card and dealers tell you without looking at it or caring what card it is that they “do not buy sgc cards”

Please raise your hand if you're a dealer who "does not buy SGC cards"

[MichelaiTorres83]

Originally Posted by edhans

Please raise your hand if you're a dealer who "does not buy SGC cards"

There are lots and even more collectors, which is partly lots of dealers will not. List two identical cards on Ebay at the same price and see which one garners interest and which gets none, meaning zero interest at all.

Just like there are dealers who wont touch grade A, OC, MK, half grades or cards with paper loss.

There is high price cobb for sale and it has been treated like the black plague for a year, dealers and collectors alike, but those I have talked to say 3 years.

As far as attempting to debunk my comments, I do encourage you at the next shows you go to observe what dealers only have PSA cards in their cases and ask them. That is where you will find the answer to your question.

[edhans]

Originally Posted by MichelaiTorres83

That is where you will find the answer to your question.

I didn't pose a question. I've been setting up at shows, including the National for 25 years. I've never heard any dealer decline to purchase a card just because it's in an SGC holder. Undoubtedly many prefer PSA and may even sell only PSA cards, but no rational vendor would walk away from a purchase on which he could make a profit, regardless of the holder.

[Stampsfan]

Originally Posted by Bigdaddy

I would not be surprised if that entrant was PWCC, with the way they have been expanding their presence and offerings.

FWIW

That idea is certainly worthy of attention.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by edhans

I didn't pose a question. I've been setting up at shows, including the National for 25 years. I've never heard any dealer decline to purchase a card just because it's in an SGC holder. Undoubtedly many prefer PSA and may even sell only PSA cards, but no rational vendor would walk away from a purchase on which he could make a profit, regardless of the holder.

In most cases it is fair to say their buy price certainly isn't equal.

The last SGC card I bought I paid $56 for and the same grade for the card in a PSA holder would sell for at least $350 or higher. The spread is extremely wide in many cases so coming up with a number that works would be very tough.

PSA is just drastically more popular for most cards.

[Leon]

Gone... until registration is verified. Generic voice mail not left and PM sent with no response.
Two in one thread, it might be a record. We will see. I hope I come back and say this person verified registration. I am not going to hold my breath though.

Originally Posted by MichelaiTorres83

There are lots and even more collectors, which is partly lots of dealers will not. List two identical cards on Ebay at the same price and see which one garners interest and which gets none, meaning zero interest at all.

Just like there are dealers who wont touch grade A, OC, MK, half grades or cards with paper loss.

There is high price cobb for sale and it has been treated like the black plague for a year, dealers and collectors alike, but those I have talked to say 3 years.

As far as attempting to debunk my comments, I do encourage you at the next shows you go to observe what dealers only have PSA cards in their cases and ask them. That is where you will find the answer to your question.

.

[Rare Stuff]

Any news on the forger? Peter Nash? Manny? Have any more forgeries been found? Can’t let this guy get away with it.

[egri]

Originally Posted by Leon

Gone... until registration is verified. Generic voice mail not left and PM sent with no response.
Two in one thread, it might be a record.

I haven’t heard any news either (other than the forger doesn’t seem to have moved to postwar, at least not yet) but I’m not sure two banishments in one thread is a record; I remember a few of Joey Farino’s threads ending with multiple bans, and he was usually one of them.

[OldOriole]

Originally Posted by edhans

Please raise your hand if you're a dealer who "does not buy SGC cards"

+1

I sell vintage cards in SGC and PSA holders at every Philly show and at each Chantilly show. I've never had a dealer say they don't buy SGC cards, not once. Buy the card, not the holder.

[T206Collector]

Plus why would they refuse? They may try to pay less, but like I said above, take a look at the SGC and PSA 6 Matty portraits and the SGC and PSA 5 Johnson portraits in REA last weekend. SGC did better.

https://bid.robertedwardauctions.com...searchin=title

https://bid.robertedwardauctions.com...searchin=title

[Peter_Spaeth]

707 as best I know is virtually exclusively PSA. I think 4SC is similar.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by MichelaiTorres83

Unlikely. I believe it is partof their slow demise.

I don’t believe they will be in business 10 years from now.

You are sort of doomed when buyers and dealers won’t touch a card that they have graded.

The prices reflect that and people do not want to flip them to take losses.

SGC doesn't grade that many cards and they probably weren't grading very many auto's so it is an easy business decision to shut down a line of business that you play a very limited role in the market in and one that you might be taking significant financial risk by doing. It might not have been profitable for them anyways.

I have only dealt with SGC once and felt like the process was smooth and was really happy with how the cards looked in their holders. The problem is the collecting pool is getting smaller and smaller for their cards and there may certainly be segments where the collector base is very solid and perhaps like them more than other third party graders but the general trend is slipping.

It is my understanding at one point recently that they might grade 10,000 cards in a good month. This isn't a very large business and the revenue is probably less than 1.5 million if not lower. I think a lot of people forget how small the third party authentication business really is. PSA has a market share that amounts to total domination of a market and they really don't make that much money. Collectors Universe through June of 18 only made 6.2 million in profit for the fiscal year and around 35% of the company is represented by PSA so we are not talking huge numbers.

I think it is a very real possibility at some point SGC goes away. It might not and I think having choices is better for a market but it certainly isn't out of the realm of possibilities. What I think is more likely is they keep maintaining a very small amount of market share and someone out there is making 400k or so a year to operate it and is totally fine with it. It will certainly be interesting.

If they go out of business it is bad for the slabs in general but there are once again probably some areas where the collectors are totally comfortable with what they bought and it won't be an issue at all. I don't collect the older cards so I don't have a real opinion that counts but on newer cards it certainly wouldn't be good for them in most cases.

[MichelaiTorres83]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

SGC doesn't grade that many cards and they probably weren't grading very many auto's so it is an easy business decision to shut down a line of business that you play a very limited role in the market in and one that you might be taking significant financial risk by doing. It might not have been profitable for them anyways.

I have only dealt with SGC once and felt like the process was smooth and was really happy with how the cards looked in their holders. The problem is the collecting pool is getting smaller and smaller for their cards and there may certainly be segments where the collector base is very solid and perhaps like them more than other third party graders but the general trend is slipping.

It is my understanding at one point recently that they might grade 10,000 cards in a good month. This isn't a very large business and the revenue is probably less than 1.5 million if not lower. I think a lot of people forget how small the third party authentication business really is. PSA has a market share that amounts to total domination of a market and they really don't make that much money. Collectors Universe through June of 18 only made 6.2 million in profit for the fiscal year and around 35% of the company is represented by PSA so we are not talking huge numbers.

I think it is a very real possibility at some point SGC goes away. It might not and I think having choices is better for a market but it certainly isn't out of the realm of possibilities. What I think is more likely is they keep maintaining a very small amount of market share and someone out there is making 400k or so a year to operate it and is totally fine with it. It will certainly be interesting.

If they go out of business it is bad for the slabs in general but there are once again probably some areas where the collectors are totally comfortable with what they bought and it won't be an issue at all. I don't collect the older cards so I don't have a real opinion that counts but on newer cards it certainly wouldn't be good for them in most cases.

Their revenue has to be much higher. Their process is terribly in efficient evident by anyone who has attempted to mail them a submission or submit at a show. If they got rid of half the morons and upped their efficiency profits would go up.

[Dpeck100]

The PSA division of Collectors Universe did $21,065,000 in revenue for 2018 and SGC is a fraction of their size. I think $1,500,000 might be generous and if not it isn't too far off.

[MichelaiTorres83]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

The PSA division did $21,065,000 in revenue for 2018 and SGC is a fraction of their size. I think $1,500,000 might be generous and if not it isn't too far off.

That number seems a lot more in line with what I would expect. 10 years max based on the 20 to 1 revenue. If PSA were smart they would buy them out and shut the brand down while they have opportunity.

[mantlefan]

Hopefully the beginning of the end for this poorly run franchise.

[Bigdaddy]

If SGC shuts down/gets bought out, I would expect another entrant into the graded card market. It is ripe for a franchise that uses computer vision to grade cards, with more precise and repeatable results. I would not be surprised if that entrant was PWCC, with the way they have been expanding their presence and offerings.

FWIW