Players who fell off a cliff

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Albert Belle blows away Harold Baines. Look at his stats for the 1990s.

He only has 1726 hits. It is going to be hard to get elected to the HOF with that few. Maris is even worse with 1325. If those guys had played long enough to get 2000, I think they would both be in.

[packs]

Originally Posted by rats60

He only has 1726 hits. It is going to be hard to get elected to the HOF with that few. Maris is even worse with 1325. If those guys had played long enough to get 2000, I think they would both be in.

Belle's stats are due to injury though. He should have enough merit in what he did while he could play to get in. He was a much better hitter than Jim Rice or Andre Dawson, who are probably the most similar to him in terms of why they got in.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by rats60

He only has 1726 hits. It is going to be hard to get elected to the HOF with that few. Maris is even worse with 1325. If those guys had played long enough to get 2000, I think they would both be in.

Oh I agree, especially given his unpopularity Belle will never get in, I was mostly just responding to the notion that a few good years qualified Maris somehow. But I do think if guys like Baines who were pretty good for a very long time are in, one needs to consider guys who were superstars for 6-7-8 years just didn't have much of a career beyond that. The Belles and Mattinglys of the world.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Oh I agree, especially given his unpopularity Belle will never get in, I was mostly just responding to the notion that a few good years qualified Maris somehow. But I do think if guys like Baines who were pretty good for a very long time are in, one needs to consider guys who were superstars for 6-7-8 years just didn't have much of a career beyond that. The Belles and Mattinglys of the world.

I think there are some guys like Mattingly and Dale Murphy who can get in now that the Veteran's Committee is putting in the likes of Baines, Lee Smith and Morris. I just think that the Maris and Belle career numbers fall short. Longevity does matter and that is the only reason those 3 made it.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by rats60

I think there are some guys like Mattingly and Dale Murphy who can get in now that the Veteran's Committee is putting in the likes of Baines, Lee Smith and Morris. I just think that the Maris and Belle career numbers fall short. Longevity does matter and that is the only reason those 3 made it.

Belle .933 OPS to .815 for Murphy and almost as many HR. .830 for Mattingly.

I would not even think about considering Maris who at most had 4 top years, and really only 2.

[ooo-ribay]

Anyone (other than Bonds) who the Giants have extended lately.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by rats60

He only has 1726 hits. It is going to be hard to get elected to the HOF with that few. Maris is even worse with 1325. If those guys had played long enough to get 2000, I think they would both be in.

The rules say 10 years. Belle played 10 full plus 2 others. He had waaaaaaaaaay more great years than Sandy Koufax yet Koufax went right in, with no one caring about his short career. Belle is an absolute no-brainer HOFer.

[Yastrzemski Sports]

For a player with a short career to go in the hall it has to be spectacular. Sandy has 3 cy and an mvp to go with 3 ws rings. Joey has no MVP awards. No World Series. He was caught using a corked bat. He was a huge slugger and had a very nice career. I would agree that he should be strongly considered for the HOF. But I think Maris, Mattingly and Murphy belong first. They were all the best players in baseball at one point in their careers. Belle was not.

Originally Posted by Tabe

The rules say 10 years. Belle played 10 full plus 2 others. He had waaaaaaaaaay more great years than Sandy Koufax yet Koufax went right in, with no one caring about his short career. Belle is an absolute no-brainer HOFer.

[Eggoman]

Plus Belle was "VERY DIFFICULT" to like! It's NOT supposed to matter, but...

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Yastrzemski Sports

For a player with a short career to go in the hall it has to be spectacular. Sandy has 3 cy and an mvp to go with 3 ws rings. Joey has no MVP awards. No World Series. He was caught using a corked bat. He was a huge slugger and had a very nice career. I would agree that he should be strongly considered for the HOF. But I think Maris, Mattingly and Murphy belong first. They were all the best players in baseball at one point in their careers. Belle was not.

Do you support Gooden then on the pitching side? Santana? Maybe Oswalt?

[Yastrzemski Sports]

Johan and Gooden have fair cases - edge to Johan. Oswalt has none. Oswalt has no CY. Gooden and Johan each have 1 20 win season. All HOVG.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Do you support Gooden then on the pitching side? Santana? Maybe Oswalt?

[brian1961]

A name that should be mentioned is Bill James, the hurler for the 1914 World Series champion Boston Braves. He went 26-7 with them that great year. Bill also won 2 games in the Series, and must have been Manager Johnny Evers's ace, for they sweep the A's in what was their swan song season of that era.

Mr. James followed with 5-4, for what I am sure is a plausible reason, but sadly, a long fall from the cliff. Thereafter, no wins in MLB.

Returning to Roger Maris, while he never returned to the season numbers and performance of 1960-61, a major cause was the near-constant emotional and mental abuse heaped upon the poor man from the kazillion Yankee fans who believed Roger did not deserve to be the single season home run king. In tandem were the writers, who almost to a man wrote him off as surly, grouchy, and ill-fit to carry the Babe's jockstrap. In his memoirs, Roger Maris wrote that the worst season he felt all this was not 1961, but 1962. Thereafter, I imagine the drive to hit homers the way Yankee management had traded for him to do so had left him entirely.

His trade to the Cardinals was a win-win for the Cards and Roger. The Cardinals' management and moreover, all their loyal and non-front running fans took the beleaguered and tormented Roger into their huge hearts. The Rajah's regal World Series performance was a fitting climax to his first season in St. Loo, and no doubt Yank fans were gnashing their teeth about it, while bashing whoever they had turned upon once Mr. Maris left them.....Joe Pepitone perhaps?

Anyway, it took Yank management a long time to realize what they had had in Roger Maris, and I salute George Steinbrenner for his tenacious efforts and humility to bring Roger back to the Stadium, and lavish long overdue praise, nice treatment, and build a monument for him in their exclusive little park for such better Bombers. In my mind, Roger Maris is still MLB's single season home run king.

I'll leave it alone. ---Brian Powell

[akleinb611]

Actually, the degree to which the hostile atmosphere of the New York press and public was responsible for Maris' decline has long been exaggerated. Yes, he was treated badly by the press, but that changed from abuse due to his not being Babe Ruth (totally unfair, of course), to abuse over the fact that his performance declined catastrophically (unfortunate, but entirely normal - it would have been amazing if he DIDN'T get some grief over that).

The REASON for the decline is rarely talked about, given that all people remember now is how mean the newspapers were. The real reason is that Maris broke his hand in 1963, and the crude x-ray technology of the time completely missed the hairline fracture. He wasn't properly diagnosed for several years, by which time he'd been playing with a broken/improperly healed hand for several years, which ultimately caused permanent damage.

I'm at work so I don't have access to all the details, but that's the real cause of his decline - injury, not emotional abuse. It's not as interesting a story, which is why it's not remembered that way.

[sycks22]

I think people are overlooking Johnny Vander Meer. He only had 2 no hitters in a row. Seems pretty easy to do. Maintaining that couldn't have been that hard.

[brian1961]

Though these pitchers did not by any means fall off a cliff per se, this trio of twirlers reached some amazing heights, then never came close afterwards:

Big Ed Walsh (Chicago White Sox)

Smoky Joe Wood (Boston Red Sox)

Colby Jack Coombs (Philadelphia Athletics)

One made the Hall, but all three of the above were outstanding for a time. As with the case for Roger Maris, as someone else astutely observed, it's the Hall of FAME, not the Hall of Super Stats.

I really don't care anymore if Roger Maris is enshrined; he was a great Yankee and player to me, and he's enshrined in my heart. I had to pay a lot of dough for my favorite Maris piece in the late 80s. I never regretted it one second. Guess I should say what it is---a 1962 JELL-O complete unfolded box in gem mint condition. A few years ago I was the winning bidder in a LOVE OF THE GAME auction for a scarce 1962 Gehl's Gold Mine Ice Cream Roger Maris, graded 6.5 by PSA. Paid almost twice what I paid for the Maris box, and love it.

Now, this has nothing to do with Rog's career falling off a cliff, but to underscore the fact that some of us love non-HOFers that mean something to us, and will treasure them more than most of the guys who are enshrined in Cooperstown.

Nice cardboard hot stove league discussion! --- Brian Powell

[packs]

Originally Posted by Yastrzemski Sports

For a player with a short career to go in the hall it has to be spectacular. Sandy has 3 cy and an mvp to go with 3 ws rings. Joey has no MVP awards. No World Series. He was caught using a corked bat. He was a huge slugger and had a very nice career. I would agree that he should be strongly considered for the HOF. But I think Maris, Mattingly and Murphy belong first. They were all the best players in baseball at one point in their careers. Belle was not.

Albert's heights eclipsed awards. He played in the steroid era and was never under a steroid cloud. He finished 2nd or 3rd in MVP voting three years in a row. One of those years he finished second to Mo Vaughn, known purchaser of HGH and named in the Mitchel Report. Then he finished third behind A-rod (known cheater) and Juan Gonzalez (known cheater).

So you are talking about a guy who should have won at least 2 of the 3 MVP awards he nearly won and a guy who drove in 100 runs or more the last 9 years of his career.

What exactly did Jim Rice do to end up in the HOF that Albert Belle didn't?

[Peter_Spaeth]

1994. 36/101/.357/1.152 in just 106 games. I'd say that year he was the best player in baseball, and damn close to it quite a few other years, if this is somehow the test.

[Yastrzemski Sports]

Originally Posted by packs

Albert's heights eclipsed awards. He played in the steroid era and was never under a steroid cloud. He finished 2nd or 3rd in MVP voting three years in a row. One of those years he finished second to Mo Vaughn, known purchaser of HGH and named in the Mitchel Report. Then he finished third behind A-rod (known cheater) and Juan Gonzalez (known cheater).

So you are talking about a guy who should have won at least 2 of the 3 MVP awards he nearly won and a guy who drove in 100 runs or more the last 9 years of his career.

What exactly did Jim Rice do to end up in the HOF that Albert Belle didn't?

Win an mvp.

[packs]

Originally Posted by Yastrzemski Sports

Win an mvp.

Someone wins the MVP every year. They are not all HOFers.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Yastrzemski Sports

For a player with a short career to go in the hall it has to be spectacular. Sandy has 3 cy and an mvp to go with 3 ws rings. Joey has no MVP awards. No World Series. He was caught using a corked bat. He was a huge slugger and had a very nice career. I would agree that he should be strongly considered for the HOF. But I think Maris, Mattingly and Murphy belong first. They were all the best players in baseball at one point in their careers. Belle was not.

His surly disposition undoubtedly cost him MVP votes. The guy finished EIGHTH one year while hitting .328 with 49 homers and 152 RBI. Led the league in slugging, OPS, OPS+ and total bases. EIGHTH. Finished 2nd behind Mo Vaughn in 1995 despite: higher batting average (.317 vs .300), more homers (50 vs 39), same RBI (126), higher OBP (.401 vs .388), higher slugging (.690 vs .575), higher OPS (1.091 vs .963), higher WAR (7.0 vs 4.3).

Belle played 10 full seasons and parts of two more. AVERAGED 40 homers every 162 games. OPS+ of 144. Those are ridiculous, high-level, elite numbers.

Nope, he didn't win an MVP or World Series. But he outperformed guys who did.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Even mentioning how many WS someone played in as a factor in their Hall-worthiness is absurd. How many did Ernie Banks play in? Stan Musial? Ted Williams for God's sake? On the other side of the ledger there are double digit mediocre guys on the 20s through 50s Yankees who probably played in 5+.

[egri]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Even mentioning how many WS someone played in as a factor in their Hall-worthiness is absurd. How many did Ernie Banks play in? Stan Musial? Ted Williams for God's sake? On the other side of the ledger there are double digit mediocre guys on the 20s through 50s Yankees who probably played in 5+.

Charlie Silvera was in six, won five, and spent all but one inning of it on the bench.

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by egri

Charlie Silvera was in six, won five, and spent all but one inning of it on the bench.

If he hadn't played one inning, his bench would be shrine-worthy.

[Yastrzemski Sports]

It’s not absurd. It’s part of the player’s accomplishments and in some cases may make a difference. For example, when Curt Schilling eventually gets inducted it will be largely because of his 3 ws rings.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Even mentioning how many WS someone played in as a factor in their Hall-worthiness is absurd. How many did Ernie Banks play in? Stan Musial? Ted Williams for God's sake? On the other side of the ledger there are double digit mediocre guys on the 20s through 50s Yankees who probably played in 5+.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Yastrzemski Sports

It’s not absurd. It’s part of the player’s accomplishments and in some cases may make a difference. For example, when Curt Schilling eventually gets inducted it will be largely because of his 3 ws rings.

Maris hit .217 in the WS even with his stellar 1967 performance. He was well under .200 for NY. I agree if you play particularly well, it helps, but not just being on a winning team. Schilling was 11-2 2.23 postseason. Yes, that will help him, but it's the performance, not the rings.