Are the "T213-1" (1910 COUPON) cards really T206's ? ....I think so....What say you ?

[Pat R]

Ted, What's the transfer on your Rossman coupon? I think it might be an
EPDG transfer.

[DixieBaseball]

Rob - Great pics, and scarcity list! Does anyone know of any ungraded Cobb Coupon cards in the Universe? I don't, except for the one that was in that completed set done many years ago, which I believe now has been broken up and sold in pieces if memory serves...

The Cobb count could be representative of the max amount of Coupon's per player and the Cobb possibly, has a few that have been double graded/crossed over, etc. - My assumption would be there are 8-15 Coupon Cobb's including all graded/raw examples. You have to figure there are more Cobb's than other common players, so when I think of the definition of rare, I would say 8-15 examples is right in the sweet spot. I figure the average number of Coupons for most players is around 4-8.... What event happened to make these so limited? Break up of ATC, stop production? (May-1911). Hurricane of 1915?? It appears Coupons and Red Suns have similar production with Red Suns having a few more examples... Both are rare. Red Suns stopped production of the intended 2nd series at 75 cards. Was this at/around the time Coupon's were just starting production? 1911 ??? So many questions, but I feel like the darts are all around the bulls eye and we just need more time and research to connect the dots... Ramble end.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by DixieBaseball

Rob - Great pics, and scarcity list! Does anyone know of any ungraded Cobb Coupon cards in the Universe? I don't, except for the one that was in that completed set done many years ago, which I believe now has been broken up and sold in pieces if memory serves...

The Cobb count could be representative of the max amount of Coupon's per player and the Cobb possibly, has a few that have been double graded/crossed over, etc. - My assumption would be there are 8-15 Coupon Cobb's including all graded/raw examples. You have to figure there are more Cobb's than other common players, so when I think of the definition of rare, I would say 8-15 examples is right in the sweet spot. I figure the average number of Coupons for most players is around 4-8.... What event happened to make these so limited? Break up of ATC, stop production? (May-1911). Hurricane of 1915?? It appears Coupons and Red Suns have similar production with Red Suns having a few more examples... Both are rare. Red Suns stopped production of the intended 2nd series at 75 cards. Was this at/around the time Coupon's were just starting production? 1911 ??? So many questions, but I feel like the darts are all around the bulls eye and we just need more time and research to connect the dots... Ramble end.

Some of these subjects are extremely tough with other backs too.
Try and find some of these subjects with Tolstoi backs. Ted said he
searched for twelve years and never even saw a scan of Rossman with
a Tolstoi back.

Here are the combined pop reports on some of the Coupon type 1 subjects with
Tolstoi backs.

Cree - 2
Donovan - 2
Dubuc - 2
Dunn - 1
Engle - 3
Hoffman - 0
Hunter - 1
Killian - 3
Laporte - 1
Rossman - 0
Thomas - 0
Willett - 1
Wilson - 3

Dunn, Rossman and Thomas were only recently confirmed with Tolstoi
backs in the past year.

[DixieBaseball]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Some of these subjects are extremely tough with other backs too.
Try and find some of these subjects with Tolstoi backs. Ted said he
searched for twelve years and never even saw a scan of Rossman with
a Tolstoi back.

Here are the combined pop reports on some of the Coupon type 1 subjects with
Tolstoi backs.

Cree - 2
Donovan - 2
Dubuc - 2
Dunn - 1
Engle - 3
Hoffman - 0
Hunter - 1
Killian - 3
Laporte - 1
Rossman - 0
Thomas - 0
Willett - 1
Wilson - 3

Dunn, Rossman and Thomas were only recently confirmed with Tolstoi
backs in the past year.

Pat - That is very interesting. What do you make of such a ridiculously low pop for those players? Tolstoi is in that middle range of tough backs which shouldn't be too difficult to find, yet these are super rare. Have you been able to see if these players were possibly "late" into production for some baseball reason? i.e. traded, called up, etc. ?! Perhaps Tolstoi added them to production late !?

[tedzan]

Jeremy

Here are 27 subjects in the 1910 COUPON set which were NOT printed with these following 350 series backs…..
CAROLINA BRIGHTS, EL PRINCIPE DE GALES, OLD MILL, POLAR BEAR. But were printed with the TOLSTOI back.

Do we have enough imagination to figure this strange incongruity, or is this a case where...."Only the Monster Knows !"

Byrne
Charles
Donovan (throwing)
Doolan (fielding)
Fletcher
Hoffman (St Louis AL)
Howell (portrait)
Huggins (portrait)
Huggins (hands at mouth)
Hunter
Killian (portrait)
Knabe
Lennox
Marquard (portrait)
McBride
McElveen
McIntyre (Detroit)
Mitchell (Cincinnati)
Mowery
Myers (bat)

Paskert
Rhoades (hands at chest)
Rossman
Schmidt (portrait)
Starr
Street (portrait)
Summers


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by DixieBaseball

Pat - That is very interesting. What do you make of such a ridiculously low pop for those players? Tolstoi is in that middle range of tough backs which shouldn't be too difficult to find, yet these are super rare. Have you been able to see if these players were possibly "late" into production for some baseball reason? i.e. traded, called up, etc. ?! Perhaps Tolstoi added them to production late !?

Jeremy, it's not just the players I listed that was just a sample most
of the 350 only subjects are difficult to find with a Tolstoi back here
are the combined pop reports of another group of confirmed Tolstoi's.

Anderson - 4
Bush - 0
Blackburne - 4
Cross - 4
Easterly - 1
Hoblitzel - 2
Kisinger - 1
McElveen - 3
Mowrey - 4
Oakes - 3
Ritter - 4
Smith, Heinie - 0
Zimmerman - 2

The didn't begin printing the Tolstoi backs until sometime during the 350
only series and I think it might have been towards the end of the 350
only printing as that would explain why most of them are scarce with
Tolstoi backs.

[Rich Falvo]

Pat - one of the things that surprised me the most after trying to work on a Providence master set was how tough the Tolstoi backs are for that 350 group.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by DixieBaseball

Hey Pat - at some point in near future, I will certainly be looking into your ATC Journal info (thank you for providing-looks interesting), and this thread to review all the comments. Plausible either way I suppose, but certainly will check it out. I am to busy playing offense at the moment, to play defense --- Seriously though, I look forward to reviewing, discussing w/ you and Ted in near future. Just so frikkin busy, and I better get back to pressure washing the back deck as that is what I was suppose to be doing this morning... Meanwhile... let us be Free from Adulteration!

To keep from hi-jacking Teds other thread any further I moved this here where it's on topic. Until you get free time to look at the Journal which I think is the most important information there is in trying to date the time frame of the type 1's here's a rundown of some of the information in it.

The pages in it are from early 1909 through 1912 here's the two index pages I posted in the other thread

ATC Index Ledger page 1.jpg

ATC Index Ledger page 2.jpg

Some of the pages have examples of the cards pasted to them but the t206
pages were all removed and sold. Here's one of the pages I posted in the other
thread an American Beauty page with a Willetts pasted to it who as you know is in the t213-1 set.

ATC American Beauty Ledger page.jpg

I know your a Southern League collector so here's an Old Mill page from the journal.

In partial it reads Began packing nat'l players same as those in piedmonts
began packing Jan 8th 1910 Began shipping Jan 9th 1910

Began packing one nat'l + 1 so league pict 3/15/1910 shipping 3/17/1910
Discontinued 12/14/10

img421.jpg

If the type 1's were printed in 1910 they almost certainly should be in this journal.

Originally Posted by tedzan

Pat

If you do NOT see the stylistic similarity of the design of these 5 backs indicating that they were printed during the Summer 1910 timeline,
then you have no appreciation for the operation at American Lithographic's art department. These designs were simultaneously printed in
the Spring/Summer of 1910. The same was true with another stylistic back design during the 350-only Series (CAROLINA BRIGHTS).






Furthermore,
This information is derived from an ATC journal regarding the May 1911 DIVESTURE ACT, which broke up American Tobacco Company's
monopoly.

Liggett & Myers was given about 28 per cent of the cigarette market:

Piedmont
Fatima
American Beauty
Home Run
Imperiales
COUPON
King Bee
Fatima

P. Lorillard received 15 per cent of the nation's business:

Helmar
Egyptian Deities
Turkish Trophies
Murad
Mogul
and all straight Turkish brands

American Tobacco retained 37 per cent of the market:

Pall Mall
Sweet Caporal
Hassan
Mecca


Note that the COUPON brand is assigned to L & M.....proving to us that it was in the marketplace during 1910.
Newspaper clippings (circa 1909) exist which inform us this new ATC brand was being introduced.


THAT'S ALL FOLKS, CASE IS CLOSED !


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Since Ted seems to be reluctant to view the journal and points to the stylistic design similarity's as one of the reasons they were printed in 1910 all the brands are on the index pages except Coupon.

ATC Index Ledger page 1 - Copy.jpg

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Ted, What's the transfer on your Rossman coupon? I think it might be an
EPDG transfer.

It looks like paper addition on the front but with the smaller scan it's hard to tell it could be paper loss but either way it looks like it was stuck to an EPDG
at some point.

Rossman T213-1 - Copy (2).jpg

Rossman T213-1 - Copy - Copy.jpgEPDG Backs - Copy - Copy.jpg

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Pat R

It looks like paper addition on the front but with the smaller scan it's hard to tell it could be paper loss but either way it looks like it was stuck to an EPDG
at some point.

Attachment 341678

Attachment 341679Attachment 341680

Pat

You have a better eye than I.

Nice catch on the EPDG transfer on my Rossman card.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Ted, What's the transfer on your Rossman coupon? I think it might be an
EPDG transfer.

Pat

Here are larger front/back scans of the Rossman card. Rossman is an EPDG no-print; therefore, how can it have an EPDG transfer ?

The Rossman card was printed with very few backs. Most likely because he was traded by Detroit to the St. Louis Browns (August 20, 1909).
Plus, his Major League career ended Sept, 3, 1909.



TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Pat R]

Ted, It's a "storage" transfer not a factory transfer.