Trend in the NBA

[barrysloate]

The new NBA season is only about ten days old, but it seems that every night one or two teams are scoring in the 130's, and several teams have already reached the 140's. Last night Golden State won 144-122.

Is there a new rule in the league that it's illegal to play defense?

[mckinneyj]

There is a new rule that results in resetting the shot clock to 14 seconds after an offensive rebound rather than the prior 24 seconds...

[KMayUSA6060]

Defense is also a forgotten practice.

Ty Lue of the Cavs has said he wants to average 90+ shots per game, which essentially means he doesn't want to play defense since that would eat the clock and limit the amount of time they can get shots up. Cavs haven't won a game - how's that strategy working out, bud?

NBA isn't basketball. It's not fun to watch. Bring on college ball.

[Touch'EmAll]

Yes, NBA scoring seems up. However, when playoff time comes, well, defense wins championships. The best defensive teams are the ones that usually go far in the playoffs - when it really counts. As far as fun to watch, last night was really fun, for me anyway. Curry went off for 51 points! He is the best pure shooter in the game today, really fun to watch him. And I saw some of the Bucks game - Giannis Antetokounmpo had a triple-double 32 pts, 10 assists, 18 rebounds - another really fun watch, heck of a player! And my Lakers finally won a game, woo hoo!

[1952boyntoncollector]

Defense wins championships sort of.....cant really defend the 3..

your team takes 30 threes our team takes 30 threes...thats the game within a game..you make 10 more than the other team thats 30 more points

holding teams to under 115-110 is the new holding teams under 100


I wonder if Vegas had decent game total over unders for the first week or could yo of made a fortune betting overs the first week

[Touch'EmAll]

As a Lakers fan my whole life, I can't help but wonder often what Jerry West would have done in todays NBA 3-point environment. Probably scary good.

[Econteachert205]

Originally Posted by 100backstroke

As a Lakers fan my whole life, I can't help but wonder often what Jerry West would have done in todays NBA 3-point environment. Probably scary good.

How about pistol Pete!

[barrysloate]

High scoring games can be fun to watch, so maybe it's a good thing. Time will tell.

[vintage mesiah]

Originally Posted by 100backstroke

As a Lakers fan my whole life, I can't help but wonder often what Jerry West would have done in todays NBA 3-point environment. Probably scary good.

Or just imagine Reggie Miller if he was just only one dimensional like Steph is and just stays behind the arc and not play defense ..

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by vintage mesiah

Or just imagine Reggie Miller if he was just only one dimensional like Steph is and just stays behind the arc and not play defense ..

Ummm sorry, you can't bring Reggie Miller up as an example and then describe Steph Curry as 1-dimensionsal.

Not only does Curry outperform him by a comfortable margin in almost every category, both offensively and defensively, little 6'3" Steph Curry even outrebounds the 6'7" Miller, and by a good margin.

[vintage mesiah]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

Ummm sorry, you can't bring Reggie Miller up as an example and then describe Steph Curry as 1-dimensionsal.

Not only does Curry outperform him by a comfortable margin in almost every category, both offensively and defensively, little 6'3" Steph Curry even outrebounds the 6'7" Miller, and by a good margin.

Steph has Klay to do all the dirty work on the defensive side of the floor by guarding the top 1’s and 2’s .Reggie had to go thru multiple swing men back in the 90’s , guarding the other teams best swing men wasting energy AND carrying the load on the offense side .Steph only has the offense side to worry about .

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by vintage mesiah

Steph has Klay to do all the dirty work on the defensive side of the floor by guarding the top 1’s and 2’s .Reggie had to go thru multiple swing men back in the 90’s , guarding the other teams best swing men wasting energy AND carrying the load on the offense side .Steph only has the offense side to worry about .

Gosh Klay must be good, doing all the dirty work for Steph, and still having time to shoot 14 three pointers, or was it Steph’s turn to do the dirty work.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by vintage mesiah

Steph has Klay to do all the dirty work on the defensive side of the floor by guarding the top 1’s and 2’s .Reggie had to go thru multiple swing men back in the 90’s , guarding the other teams best swing men wasting energy AND carrying the load on the offense side .Steph only has the offense side to worry about .

Klay is obviously the superior defender of the two, but Golden State plays rotational defense, spreading out the assignments fairly evenly. Steph lacks length and speed on defense, but it's not for lack of effort.

If you watched the Finals last year you would have noticed how many times Steph got stuck one on one against Lebron. Pure mismatch sure, but silly to say he only has to worry about offense.

One of the reasons why that team is so good, is because everybody is accountable on both ends of the floor.

....and Steph, mostly creates his own shots. He doesn't just stand out by the 3 point line waiting for somebody to pass him the ball like many 3 point specialists.

Steph is also a PG, he has much different responsibilities then Reggie Miller or Klay Thompson.

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

Gosh Klay must be good, doing all the dirty work for Steph, and still having time to shoot 14 three pointers, or was it Steph’s turn to do the dirty work.

And the Warriors had 92 points last night- at halftime!

[vintage mesiah]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

Gosh Klay must be good, doing all the dirty work for Steph, and still having time to shoot 14 three pointers, or was it Steph’s turn to do the dirty work.

Klay is , no doubt about that , I never said he wasn’t if anything I’m saying the opposite .He’s a top 3-5 two way player in the league .

[vintage mesiah]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

Klay is obviously the superior defender of the two, but Golden State plays rotational defense, spreading out the assignments fairly evenly. Steph lacks length and speed on defense, but it's not for lack of effort.

If you watched the Finals last year you would have noticed how many times Steph got stuck one on one against Lebron. Pure mismatch sure, but silly to say he only has to worry about offense.

One of the reasons why that team is so good, is because everybody is accountable on both ends of the floor.

....and Steph, mostly creates his own shots. He doesn't just stand out by the 3 point line waiting for somebody to pass him the ball like many 3 point specialists.

Steph is also a PG, he has much different responsibilities then Reggie Miller or Klay Thompson.

No one saying it’s lack of effort , he plays the passing lanes and relies on his help side more anyone else . Durant , klay , dray , dre , Shaun all try to lock down their respective guys .

[Leon]

To me it always looks like a pick up game and guys just out there running around. I would rather watch cows chew their cud.

[ALR-bishop]

I have seen that, and it is not all it is cracked up to be.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by KMayUSA6060

Defense is also a forgotten practice.

Ty Lue of the Cavs has said he wants to average 90+ shots per game, which essentially means he doesn't want to play defense since that would eat the clock and limit the amount of time they can get shots up. Cavs haven't won a game - how's that strategy working out, bud?

NBA isn't basketball. It's not fun to watch. Bring on college ball.

It's not that it's merely a forgotten practice, it's been brutalized by rules and enforcement changes. Athletes haven't evolved in the 30 years since Jordan's heyday so why are they shooting so much better. Well there's no hand-checking and even the remotest amount of physicality results in a foul call. Put some of these players into the 80's and their numbers would become more pedestrian, likely in line with the greats of that era, not outstripping them by miles.

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by Leon

To me it always looks like a pick up game and guys just out there running around. I would rather watch cows chew their cud.

I once watched cows chew their cud, and it was udder chaos.

[frankbmd]

Move the three point line to mid court.

If that doesn’t work, raise the rim to 12 feet.

If that doesn’t work, put the rim in perpetual motion between 10 and 14 feet.

If that doesn’t work, mount a windmill on the top of the backboard with blades that spin in front of the basket as in miniature golf.

Finally if all else fails, increase the diameter of the ball to 14.95 inches and reduce the inside diameter of the rim to 15.05 inches.

Elect me for commissioner and ridiculous scoring will be history.

[barrysloate]

San Antonio 154, OKC 147 in double overtime.

LaMarcus Alridge with 56 points, Russell Westbrook with 24 points and 24 assists. The league keeps going in overdrive.

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

San Antonio 154, OKC 147 in double overtime.

LaMarcus Alridge with 56 points, Russell Westbrook with 24 points and 24 assists. The league keeps going in overdrive.

The history of NBA scoring over various eras is difficult to comprehend.

In the fifties I remember a playoff game ending 62-60 involving the Nats and the Lakers I believe. This was before the 24 second clock.

In the sixties, which I will call the Chamberlain era, the number of shots per game went up, rebounds particularly Wilt's went up and average scores were over 110. I believe the rebounding was in part due to the rules at the time on foul shots created more rebounds, as well as lower % of FG made and more shots per game.

Fast forward to the eighties with the introduction of the three point line. Scores did not continue to rise and in fact plummeted. Safe for a few, three point shooters were not as good as today, and defense was king. By 1990 the Pistons and the other better teams were holding opponents in the low 90s, despite the 24 second clock and the three point line. Shots per game were quite a bit lower than the Chamberlain era. Only a few teams averaged over 100 points per game.

This defense disappeared after 2000, scores began to increase. All-Star games have always had higher scores and a paucity of defense. The current NBA seems to entered, what I would call the "All-Star era".

If you look at a current shot distribution chart, 95% of the shots are either from the paint (high percentage dunks) or three pointers by and large. The 15 foot jump shot has all but disappeared.

Back in the sixties, one of the most remarkable statistics in my opinion was the fact that Wilt never fouled out of an NBA game and averaged 46-47 minutes of playing time in some years, if my memory is correct.

In the nineties with tighter defense, fouling out of games was a reality that players and coaches needed to contend with.

I haven't checked, but I imagine that the number of players fouling out of games is quite low today. Call it what you like: All-Star Ball, street ball, or hot-dogging, but today's game is more of a circus act than some of the basketball of the past.

I would say that this timeline for the NBA form 1954-2019 could not have been forecasted. Rule are rules and they have changed which have led to changes in the way the game is played. Each era, i'm sure, has its proponents. Personally the current game is not my favorite.

Disclaimer: This was written from memory without consulting statistics. Some of my statements may be a little off, but not much.

[AGuinness]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

The history of NBA scoring over various eras is difficult to comprehend.

...

I would say that this timeline for the NBA form 1954-2019 could not have been forecasted. Rule are rules and they have changed which have led to changes in the way the game is played. Each era, i'm sure, has its proponents. Personally the current game is not my favorite.

Disclaimer: This was written from memory without consulting statistics. Some of my statements may be a little off, but not much.

Good stuff, although it struck me when reading through that athletes have also changed dramatically over the decades - and they have in every sport, making big impacts. Russell may not have ever fouled out, but I think if he were playing today with the amazing size and quickness of today's players, he'd need to push himself on defense more and likely commit more fouls.

And thinking on this just now, I wonder if there is a point in the NBA's history when we can identify when the "star treatment" started (star players getting favorable calls). Any idea?

[barrysloate]

There was a famous playoff game, played in the early fifties, where the Lakers won 19-17. I may be off but that is my memory.

Of course the league goes through phases, and it wasn't that long ago when it was not uncommon to see teams scoring in the 80's and 90's. Today the offense rules, and even if it's not perfect basketball at least it is more fun to watch.

My main objection, however, of how the game is played today is there are too many three-point shots. I get tired seeing players heaving it from 27 feet away instead of driving to the hoop, or working some plays inside. All of the league's three point records were set in the last few years.

[barrysloate]

Last night Houston tallies 141 and Golden State hits 146, and James Harden nearly has a triple-double by halftime. The NBA is cooking with heat. Whether or not this is a positive trend is unclear. But it is fun to watch.

[AGuinness]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Last night Houston tallies 141 and Golden State hits 146, and James Harden nearly has a triple-double by halftime. The NBA is cooking with heat. Whether or not this is a positive trend is unclear. But it is fun to watch.

Watched the Celtics/Raptors tilt last night and it was thoroughly enjoyable (especially as a Celtics fan). Also saw during the broadcast that the Rockets were heaving up 3-pointers at a record pace (which is no surprise).
Honestly, this type of game is more fun to watch than the game when I was growing up in the 80s, with big guys backing into the paint, etc. The skill to make threes at a good rate from a decent distance behind the arc is incredible to watch (not to mention that there is often a defender close by). And it keeps games close, as even a team up by 20 can be caught and it's not a big surprise. And perhaps this is just recency bias, but some of the ball handlers nowadays are ridiculous...

[barrysloate]

I agree the high scoring makes the games fun to watch.

And two nights ago: Golden State 147, Pelicans 140 in regulation. I can't recall the last time both teams reached 140 in the same game without overtime.

[D. Bergin]

Man, do I dislike James Harden. Guy throws up 20 threes a game now, and also somehow nearly every time I look at a box score he's shooting as many free throws as the entire other team.

I've seen other teams play him and most have resigned themselves to either not guarding him at all when he drives the lane, or throwing their hands straight up in the air to make him go around them ala The Spurs.

There used to be a rule against flopping, but somehow they've made a rule in which the simple act of looking at Harden while he comically throws his body into yours, will get you whistled for a foul.

At least a player like Lebron tries finishing his plays and receives his fouls more honestly, by at least taking contact, even if he's initiating it. In the strange NBA we have right now, I respect a guy running through defenders blocking him out and getting a call, much more then a guy who throws himself towards defenders who aren't even occupying his lane.

15 years ago, Harden would be getting called for 10 Offensive fouls a game, with his present style. Don't understand myself how this is "good for the game".

[AGuinness]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

I've seen other teams play him and most have resigned themselves to either not guarding him at all when he drives the lane, or throwing their hands straight up in the air to make him go around them ala The Spurs.

For me, fouls in the NBA are the biggest problem. I'm watching more games these days (my sons are Trail Blazers fans so we catch as many as we can, along with Celtics), and it's tough to understand what is a foul and what isn't. Just yesterday, I watched the Celtics game for a stretch without sound and it was amazing that when fouls were called, I often thought the foul should have been called on the player who got fouled.
Every sport has this type of aggravating aspect (balls/strikes, pass interference, some hockey penalties), but NBA fouls rank way up there, to me.

[frankbmd]

Fouls are a huge problem for the NBA and not just recently.

Back in the days of the ironclad defense of the Pistons, Bill Lambert never committed a foul that he thought he deserved, but he was often in foul trouble and fouled out more than once. His abject disbelief whenever he was whistled for a foul occurred on 90%+ of the fouls he committed.

The big boys like Wilt and Shaq were human bulldozers who were never impeded gettin to the rim. If you were between them and the basket, you became road kill. Wilt and Shaq never got their share of offensive fouls in my opinion.

If you were a rookie or bench player guarding Michael Jordan or any other franchise player, questionable calls were never in your favor. Keeping Michael in the game was the unwritten rule.

Traveling also seems to be called inconsistently. 2, 3 or 4 steps seems to be okay at times. When the last dribble is above the foul circle and the basket counts, an air traffic controller should be on the officiating crew.

Doug Moe, Denver's coach in the 80s, was an early proponent of high scoring NBA basketball. His teams were okay, but often were defeated by high scoring opponents. He should be considered the father of the current NBA.

The impact of the three point line and how it has changed offensive basketball strategy suggests that additional lines might be considered. I'm not sure where though, just a thought.

I'll try to avoid this thread going forward, promise.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I don't like basketball much anymore. I much prefer the Bird/Magic/Jordan/Isiah era with a premium on passing and team play.

[AGuinness]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

Fouls are a huge problem for the NBA and not just recently.

Back in the days of the ironclad defense of the Pistons, Bill Lambert never committed a foul that he thought he deserved, but he was often in foul trouble and fouled out more than once. His abject disbelief whenever he was whistled for a foul occurred on 90%+ of the fouls he committed.

The big boys like Wilt and Shaq were human bulldozers who were never impeded gettin to the rim. If you were between them and the basket, you became road kill. Wilt and Shaq never got their share of offensive fouls in my opinion.

If you were a rookie or bench player guarding Michael Jordan or any other franchise player, questionable calls were never in your favor. Keeping Michael in the game was the unwritten rule.

Traveling also seems to be called inconsistently. 2, 3 or 4 steps seems to be okay at times. When the last dribble is above the foul circle and the basket counts, an air traffic controller should be on the officiating crew.

Doug Moe, Denver's coach in the 80s, was an early proponent of high scoring NBA basketball. His teams were okay, but often were defeated by high scoring opponents. He should be considered the father of the current NBA.

The impact of the three point line and how it has changed offensive basketball strategy suggests that additional lines might be considered. I'm not sure where though, just a thought.

I'll try to avoid this thread going forward, promise.

Additional lines should be considered! Why not? Not considering new changes just because the game has "always been played" a certain way is silly.

Shaq was a unique one, and I remember the refs not even knowing how to call fouls on/for him. The physics behind such a big body in motion created a new dynamic.

PS. What really chafes me is that step-back three that Harden has created, whereby he takes two steps, then moves back again (third step) and shoots. It's really funny that he gets away with it so much.

[AGuinness]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I don't like basketball much anymore. I much prefer the Bird/Magic/Jordan/Isiah era with a premium on passing and team play.

Through my lens, which mainly is around the Boston Celtics, I see passing and team play as the main avenue towards success today. When the Celtics make the extra pass and play strong team defense, they are very good. When they don't, they struggle. And often both sides of the coin are exhibited during the same game (if not quarter).
I see the modern game, with an emphasis on spacing the floor and a premium on 3-and-D players, having success with passing and team play. Sure, there are teams that do ISO, but even the Warriors dynasty is about creating space and finding the open shooter most of the time.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by AGuinness

I see the modern game, with an emphasis on spacing the floor and a premium on 3-and-D players, having success with passing and team play. Sure, there are teams that do ISO, but even the Warriors dynasty is about creating space and finding the open shooter most of the time.

Yeah, especially the Warriors.

If you like passing and team play, it's still pretty prevalent with many of the better teams out there.

Biggest difference between Kevin Durant on the Thunder and Kevin Durant on the Warriors, is he was playing mostly ISO ball with Westbrook and company and he moved into a much more disciplined system with the Warriors.

Pass, pass, pass until you get to the most open guy available, or to somebody (ie. Curry), who can make his own shot super efficiently, even with somebody on him.

Houston and Golden State are both known for their 3's, but their style of play couldn't be any more different, otherwise.

I said this years ago, but the Warriors are the closest thing to the Women's NCAA basketball game that UCONN perfected years and years ago.

[Peter_Spaeth]

When I've seen the Warriors it sure looks like a lot of clear out for Curry or clear out for Durant. Maybe less so than other teams, but to my eye and admittedly I am not watching nightly the game doesn't look as team oriented as the Cs and Lakers and Pistons used to and nothing like those old 70s Knicks teams.

[AGuinness]

This is an interesting story about Steph Curry's roll in the Warriors' offense:
https://clutchpoints.com/steph-curry...s-best-player/

Related - I think that the broadcasters who show NBA games, in general, do a pretty bad job in helping the viewers explain some of the action, such as diagramming screens (on ball and off ball), defensive switches, pick and rolls, etc.

[steve B]

Things certainly have changed. Maybe not for the better.

I really enjoyed the 1992 Olympic team, the games were a showcase of what basketball could be.
So I was really excited to actually go to a game in 96.

USA beat China 133 -70, and frankly looked awful doing it. The game wasn't basketball, but basketballish theater. Just a bunch of set pieces for each of the stars. One guy missed 2-3 alley oop dunks in a row before he finally made it.


That was sort of the beginning of my lack of interest in basketball.

[Promethius88]

i haven't watched an NBA game in years and I don't miss it one bit. I basically only watch college ball during tournament time and love it.
My take is there are too many "see me" players out there and more of a lack of respect for the game. The days of Bird, Magic, Dr J, etc are long gone. Spectacular players with load of highlight films but seem to be completely opposite of the stars of today. As good as they were, players used to be humbled by the game instead of acting like the game owed them something.
I don't know, maybe it's just me getting old and crotchety

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Promethius88

i haven't watched an NBA game in years and I don't miss it one bit. I basically only watch college ball during tournament time and love it.
My take is there are too many "see me" players out there and more of a lack of respect for the game. The days of Bird, Magic, Dr J, etc are long gone. Spectacular players with load of highlight films but seem to be completely opposite of the stars of today. As good as they were, players used to be humbled by the game instead of acting like the game owed them something.
I don't know, maybe it's just me getting old and crotchety

Me too. I much preferred a world without Facebook and Twitter and 24-7 media coverage which I think encourage a different model for professional sports.

[Promethius88]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Me too. I much preferred a world without Facebook and Twitter and 24-7 media coverage which I think encourage a different model for professional sports.

My God, it's like you read my mind. I will add that it's not only just in professional sports, in all walks of like in general.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Promethius88

My God, it's like you read my mind. I will add that it's not only just in professional sports, in all walks of like in general.

Yep. It drives me crazy to see 90 percent of young people and even not so young just staring into their phones and swiping, even when in the company of others. They literally can't seem to avert their eyes. In the office people pull out the phone as soon as they get into an elevator. And it's very disruptive of meetings when people can't put the damn things down and pay full attention.

[frankbmd]

Don’t block my shot and don’t touch me.

I’m not sorry I missed the All Star game today.

It’s amazing how much defense they can jam into a 178-164 nail biter.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I had thought we might see 200 points from one side. Close.

[barrysloate]

I watched the first half and here is my take: A game played with nobody playing defense and hardly any fouls being called is not a real NBA game. And of course the 178-164 score is not normal either.

But I was in awe of the players' artistry and athleticism. Did you see the things Giannis whats-his-name was able to do in the first quarter? The skill level of these players is absolutely extraordinary.

So I did enjoy watching it as a showcase, without any concern of who won or lost.

[D. Bergin]

It was about a 1000 times better then the NFL Pro Bowl. They did tighten up the defense in the 2nd half. Not saying it was NBA Finals level intensity, but it did cut out most of the Harlem Globetrotters showboating that was going on in the first half.

That said, that first half bounce pass alley-oop from Steph Curry to Giannis, was absolutely incredible.

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

It was about a 1000 times better then the NFL Pro Bowl. They did tighten up the defense in the 2nd half. Not saying it was NBA Finals level intensity, but it did cut out most of the Harlem Globetrotters showboating that was going on in the first half.

That said, that first half bounce pass alley-oop from Steph Curry to Giannis, was absolutely incredible.

Yes, the bounce pass was the play of the game. And I think the athletic ability of NBA players, combined with their incredible height, is simply awe inspiring. There might be things about NBA games that need improving, but as athletes these players are second to none, IMO.

[HRBAKER]

Agreed, it was easier to watch than the Pro Bowl.
That's a mighty low bar.

[frankbmd]

And to provide follow up from my point of view, I haven't watched a Pro Bowl in decades either.

As for the bars, both are so low I wouldn't trip over either, so their relative height is irrelevant.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

I watched the first half and here is my take: A game played with nobody playing defense and hardly any fouls being called is not a real NBA game. And of course the 178-164 score is not normal either.

But I was in awe of the players' artistry and athleticism. Did you see the things Giannis whats-his-name was able to do in the first quarter? The skill level of these players is absolutely extraordinary.

So I did enjoy watching it as a showcase, without any concern of who won or lost.

I am sure I am out of synch these days, but I preferred the elegant fundamentals of Tim Duncan and many before him to all the streetball stuff.