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#551
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T206 Reference...Reflections...Guess how many Demmitt & O'Hara St Louis cards exist ?
Quote:
Your question is too general. It depends which series of POLAR BEAR (PB) cards you are comparing Demmitt and O'Hara with. As I elaborated on in Post #549 here, there are 3 series of T206 cards in which PB backs were printed in. The 350/460 series subjects were printed with a greater number of PB backs than the subjects in the other two series. This is an indisputable fact which is indicated in population report data. For example....the population report data of the red Cobb shows 320 cards. This Cobb is in the 350/460 series; therefore, either Demmitt or O'Hara would conceivably be 300+ cards (each). Since, it's my firm belief that these two St Louis variations were printed with this group. TED Z . |
#552
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Thank you for helping me through this. Lets narrow down more to try and see if I can get on the same page with my question.
Given any/average common in the 350/460 series. Is the Demmitt and O'hara any more rare than the other examples from that series? |
#553
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T206 Reference....Reflections....FYI-rosters of the 16 Major League teams
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
The T206 set comprises of 388 - Major League ballplayers. A breakdown of a each of the 16 team rosters will be listed here in the forthcoming posts. The printers at American Lithograph certainly favored the NY Giants (printing 53 subjects). A number far greater than any other team in the set. Not surprising, since American Lithographic was situated in downtown New York City (NYC). In fact, the combined representation of the three NYC teams is 27 % of the Major League guys in this set. For starters, here is the New York Giants roster with respect to the 4 series in the T206 set...… 150 Series ..……………………...printed & issued circa Summer 1909 to Winter 1909 Ames (hands at chest) Ames (portrait) Bridwell (portrait-no cap) Crandall (no cap) Devlin Donlin (fielding) Donlin (seated) Larry Doyle (throwing) Durham Herzog (New York) Marquard (hands at side) Mathewson (portrait) Mathewson (white cap) McGraw (portrait-no cap) McGraw (pointing) Merkle (portrait) Schlei (catching) Seymour (batting) Tenney Weimer Wiltse (portrait-no cap) 350-only Series ..……………………...printed & issued circa Winter 1909 to Fall 1910 Fletcher Marquard (portrait) McCormick Murray (bat) Myers (batting) Myers (fielding) O'Hara Raymond Snodgrass (batting) 350/460 series ..……………………...printed & issued circa Fall 1910 to Spring 1911 Ames (hands over head) Donlin (bat) Larry Doyle (bat) Mathewson (dark cap) Seymour (throwing) Snodgrass (catching) Wiltse (pitching) 460-only Series ..……………………...printed & issued circa Winter 1910 to Spring 1911 Bridwell (portrait-cap) Crandall (portrait-cap) Devore Larry Doyle (portrait) Latham Marquard (pitching) McGraw (portrait-cap) McGraw (glove at hip) Merkle (throwing) Meyers (portrait) Murray (portrait) Schlei (portrait) Schlei (bat) Seymour (portrait) Wiltse (portrait-cap) Wiltse (pitching) Here is the tally for the 16 - Major League teams...… National League Subjects..Team ------------------- 53...……..New York 37...……..Chicago 26...………Brooklyn 23...……..Cincinnati 19...……..Pittsburgh 18...……..St Louis 14...……..Boston 13...……..Philadelphia American League Subjects..Team ------------------ 30...……..Detroit 27...……..New York 27...……..Chicago 25...……..Cleveland 22...……..St Louis 22...……..Philadelphia 19...……..Washington 13...……..Boston ---- 388 = grand total subjects TED Z . Last edited by tedzan; 12-17-2018 at 11:56 AM. Reason: Corrected typo. |
#554
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* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Here we have the New York Highlanders (27 subjects) and the Brooklyn Superbas (26 subjects) . 150 series Ball (New York) Chase (pink portrait) Chase (white cap) Chesbro Hemphill Keeler (portrait) Keeler (bat) Kleinow (bat) Lake (New York) Manning (batting) 350-only series Cree Demmitt Joe Doyle (hands over head) Engle Kleinow (New York-catching) Knight (portrait) Knight (bat) LaPorte Quinn Warhop 350/460 series Chase (blue portrait) Chase (dark cap) Manning (pitching) Jeff Sweeney (fielding) 460-only series Chase (trophy) Ford Frill . 150 series Alperman Bell (hands over head) Bergen (bat) Burch (bat) Jordan (portrait) Lumley McIntyre (Brooklyn) Pastorius Pattee Rucker (portrait) Wilhelm (hands at chest) 350-only Series Joe Dunn Dahlen (Brooklyn) Hunter Lennox Marshall McElveen 350/460 Series Burch (fielding) Jordan (bat) Rucker (throwing) Wilhelm (with bat) 460-only series Bell (throwing) Bergen (catching) Hummel Happy Smith (Brooklyn) Wheat Stay tuned......13 more Teams to go. TED Z . |
#555
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Hey Ted, I know that this is off topic, but I just noticed something. And I apologize if this has been discussed elsewhere:
What team did J. Ross Helm play for? Attachment 332979 I know that it says Columbus, but he is a Southern Leaguer, and Columbus is not in the South. Here is a scan of some minor leaguers. The top five are from Columbus. Their uniforms feature two different "C" logos. Neither of them match the "C" on Helm's uniform.The next two played for Columbia, and their logo is totally different. The final row is Foster and Paige, both of whom played for Charleston, and their "C" logo is an exact match for Helm's. It appears that Helm also played for Charleston, but on his card the printers erroneously wrote Columbus. scan0001.jpg I don't know where to look up minor leaguer's stats, but I'm sure someone here does, and can confirm which team Helm played for. |
#556
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#557
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Helm
James Ross Helm played for both Columbus and Chattanooga in 1909, according to his baseball-reference page. He played for several teams in the Southern League, including Montgomery and Little Rock as well. Your observation on the jersey logo is very interesting. It doesn't look like he ever played for Charleston, but that 'C' sure does match up.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/r...d=helm--001jam Last edited by OldOriole; 11-02-2018 at 05:22 AM. |
#558
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Here's an old thread about Helm playing on the Columbus GA
team in 1909. http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...highlight=Helm |
#559
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__________________
. "A life is not important except in the impact it has on others lives" - Jackie Robinson “If you have a chance to make life better for others and fail to do so, you are wasting your time on this earth.”- Roberto Clemente |
#560
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Hey Pat, that old thread was a great find. So it seems that the other five players in the set played for the Columbus, Ohio team. But Helm played for Columbus, Georgia. But he still seems to be wearing that Charleston "C" on his uniform.
But at least we know that they did get the team and league right for Helm. Last edited by Sean; 11-02-2018 at 12:04 PM. |
#561
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T206 Reference....Reflections......FYI: T206 rosters of the 16 Major League teams
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Getting back to the Major League team rosters....listed here are the Chicago Cubs (37 subjects) and the Detroit Tigers (30 subjects). After the NY Giants roster, these 2 teams have the most representation of players in the T206 set. I would guess this was by design, since the Cubs and the Tigers were in the 1907 and 1908 World Series. . 150 series M. Brown (Cubs) M. Brown (portrait) G. Brown (batting-Chicago) Chance (red portrait) Evers (bat-blue sky) Evers (portrait) Kling Lundgren (Cubs) Overall (portrait) Reulbach (glove) Schulte (front view) Sheckard (no glove) Steinfeldt (portrait) Tinker (portrait) Tinker (hands on knees) 350-only series Hofman Howard Kroh Moran Pfeister (seated) Zimmerman 350/460 series M. Brown (Chicago) Chance (yellow portrait) Evers (bat-yellow sky) McIntyre (Brooklyn and Chicago) Overall (arm at face level) Pfeister (throwing) Reulbach (no glove) Steinfeldt (with bat) Tinker (bat off shoulder) 460-only series Chance (batting) Needham Overall (arm at waist level) Pfeffer Schulte (back view) Sheckard (glove) Tinker (bat on shoulder) 150 series Cobb (green portrait) Cobb (bat on shoulder) Crawford (throwing) Donovan (portrait) Jennings (portrait) Killian (pitching) Mullin (throwing) O'Leary (portrait) Schaefer (Detroit) Schmidt (throwing) 350-only Series Bush Donovan (throwing) Davy Jones Killian (portrait) M. McIntyre (Detroit) Moriarty Mullen Rossman Schmidt (portrait) Stanage Summers Willett 350/460 Series Cobb (red portrait) Cobb (bat off shoulder) Crawford (batting) Jennings (one hand) Jennings (two hands) Mullin (batting) O'Leary (hands on knees) Willetts 460-only series NONE Stay tuned.....11 more Teams to go. TED Z . Last edited by tedzan; 11-03-2018 at 06:12 PM. Reason: Corrected typo. |
#562
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T206 Reference....Reflections......FYI: T206 rosters of the 16 Major League teams
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Listed here are the Chicago White Sox (27 subjects), Cleveland Indians (25 subjects), and the Cincinnati Reds (23 subjects) teams. . 150 series George Davis (Chicago) Donohue Dougherty (portrait) Hahn Isbell F. Jones (portrait) F. Jones (hands at hips) Owen Parent F. Smith (Chicago) Sullivan L Tannehill (Chicago) Walsh Doc White (portrait) 350-only series Atz Burns Fiene (portrait) Fiene (throwing) Purtell Scott F. Smith (white cap) 350/460 series Dougherty (arm in air) Doc White (Chicago-pitching) 460-only series Duffy Gandil Payne Tannehill (Chicago) 150 series Birmingham Bradley (portrait) JJ Clarke Flick Goode Hinchman (Cleveland) Joss (portrait) Lajoie (portrait) Lajoie (throwing) Liebhardt Stovall (portrait) Turner CYoung (portrait) CYoung (bare hand) 350-only Series Easterly Perring Rhoades (hands at chest) Rhoades (arm extended) 350/460 Series Berger Bradley (bat) Joss (pitching) Lajoie (bat) CYoung (glove at hip) 460-only series Ball (Cleveland) Stovall (bat) 150 series Ewing Griffith (portrait) Karger Lobert Spade 350-only Series Bescher (portrait) Campbell Downey fielding) Dubuc Egan Fromme Gasper Hoblitzell Huggins (portrait) Huggins (hands at mouth) McLean Mike Mitchell Mowrey Oakes Paskert 350/460 Series Downey (bat) Griffith (bat) 460-only series Bescher (hands over head) Stay tuned.....8 more Teams to go. TED Z . Last edited by tedzan; 11-05-2018 at 08:47 PM. Reason: Left out Ball (Cleveland), now included. |
#563
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T206 Reference....Reflections......FYI: T206 rosters of the 16 Major League teams
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Listed here are the St Louis Browns (22 subjects), St Louis Cardinals (18 subjects), and the Washington Senators (19 subjects) teams. . 150 series Criger Criss Ferris Tom Jones Pelty (horizontal) Powell Stone Waddell (portrait) Waddell (throwing) Wallace Williams 350-only series Dineen Graham (St Louis A.L.) Hoffman (St Louis A.L.) Howell (portrait) McAleese Stephens 350/460 series Lake (St Louis-no ball) Pelty (vertical) 460-only series Howell (hand at waist) Lake (St Louis-ball) and, Demmitt (St Louis American)) . 150 series Bresnahan (portrait) Gilbert Konetchy (glove high) Al Shaw 350-only Series Barbeau Bliss Bresnahan (bat) Charles Byrne Evans Hulswitt Phelps Rhodes 350/460 Series Konetchy (glove low) Willis (throwing) Willis (bat) 460-only series Geyer and, O'Hara (St Louis Nat'l) 150 series Conroy (fielding) Delehanty (Washington) Ganley Johnson (portrait) Shipke 350-only Series G. Brown (Washington) Elberfeld (portrait-Washington) Gray Groom McBride Milan Street (portrait) Unglaub J. Tannehill (Washington) 350/460 Series Conroy (bat) Elberfeld (Washington-fielding) Johnson (pitching) Street (catching) 460-only series Schaefer (Washington) Stay tuned.....only 5 more Teams to go. TED Z . Last edited by tedzan; 11-04-2018 at 10:14 PM. Reason: Corrected typo. |
#564
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T206 Reference....Reflections......FYI: T206 rosters of the 16 Major League teams
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Listed here are the rosters of the Philadelphia Athletics (22 subjects), Pittsburgh Pirates (19 subjects), and the Philadelphia Phillies (13 subjects) teams. . 150 series Bender (portrait) Harry Davis (A's) Murphy (throwing) Nicholls (hands on knees) Oldring (fielding) Plank Powers 350-only series Barry (A's) Bender (trees) Collins (A's) Dygert Hartsel Krause (portrait) Krause (pitching) Livingstone Thomas 350/460 series Baker Bender (no trees) Harry Davis (A's) Murphy (bat) Nichols (bat) 460-only series Oldring (bat) 150 series Abbaticchio (brown sleeves) Camnitz (arms folded) Clarke (portrait) Clarke (bat) Gibson Leach (portrait) Leifield (pitching) Honus Wagner Willis (portrait) 350-only Series Abstein Maddox Miller (Pittsburg) Phillippe Wilson 350/460 Series Leach (cap) Leifield (bat) 460-only series Abbaticchio (blue sleeves) Camnitz (hands over head) Camnitz (arm at side) 150 series Bransfield Coveleski Dooin Doolin Jacklitsch Magee McQuillan (ball in hand) 350-only Series Doolan (fielding) Knabe Titus 350/460 Series Doolan (bat) Magee (bat) McQuillan (bat) 460-only series NONE And finally, the next post will complete the sixteen Major League teams by listing the Boston Doves and the Boston Red Sox rosters. TED Z . |
#565
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Great posts Ted!
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#566
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Thanks, Ryan
Hope to see you at the Philly Show at the end of this month (Nov 30 - Dec 2). TED Z . |
#567
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T206 Reference....Reflections......FYI: T206 rosters of the 16 Major League teams
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Listed here are the rosters of the Boston Doves (14 subjects) and the Boston Red Sox (13 subjects) teams. . 150 series Bates Beaumont Bowerman Dahlen (Boston Nat'l) Lindaman Ritchey 350-only Series Beck Becker Ferguson Graham (Boston Nat'L) Mattern Starr Bill Sweeney (Boston Nat'L) 350/460 Series NONE 460-only series Herzog (Boston Nat'L) 150 series Cicotte Niles Spencer Stahl (no glove) Wagner (bat on left) 350-only Series Arellanes Carrigan Lord Speaker 350/460 Series Kleinow (Boston) F. Smith (Chicago & Boston) Stahl (glove) Wagner (bat on right) 460-only series NONE "That's All Folks"............we have accounted for all sixteen Major League teams which comprise of 388 ballplayers in the T206 set. Check out your favorite team's roster in Posts #553, 554, 561--564, and 567. TED Z . |
#568
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T206 Reference....Reflections......FYI: T206 rosters of the 16 Major League teams
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
I've arranged the cards in my T206 sets in their albums with respect to each Series. This arrangement has greatly enabled me to understand the structure of this "Monster". I'm a "numbers" guy, so here's the T206 set breakdown numerically with respect to each Series...... ..12 = 150-only series (Major Leaguers) 143 = 150/350 series (Major Leaguers) 122 = 350-only series (Major Leaguers) ..63 = 350/460 series (Major Leaguers) ..46 = 460-only series (Major Leaguers) ….2 Demmitt & O'Hara (St Louis variations) ----- 388 = total (Major Leaguers) ..86 = 350-only series (Minor Leaguers) ..48 = Southern Leaguers series ---- 522 = total number of subjects in T206 set Furthermore, #523 ….………………………………………………………………......…….. #524 . . AND, #525 .....for those of you who consider this card a T206 TED Z . Last edited by tedzan; 05-21-2020 at 06:48 PM. Reason: Corrected typo. |
#569
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Thanks
Awesome work, Ted - thanks for all you do to keep this place T206-informative!
__________________
Big fan of T206, '33 Goudey, '40 R145 gum Superman, 51-52 Parkies, '52 Topps Successful transactions buy/sell/trade with: BryanDec, Bounce, Swanstars, PiratesWS1979, unamuzd1, joshchisox08, and others |
#570
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T206 Reference....Reflections......FYI: T206 rosters of the 16 Major League teams
Quote:
One of my favorite words....."awesome". Thanks for your complimentary words, they are very much appreciated. Anything any one wants to know about "The Monster" is in this thread, and there is more info that will be posted. TED Z . |
#571
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T206 Reference....Reflections....FYI: 350 Series Minor Leaguer's checklist and trivia
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Listed here are the 350 Series Minor Leaguer's, comprising of 86 subjects....48 subjects are from the Eastern League, and 38 subjects are from the American Association. Eastern League ------------------ Baltimore Orioles Buffalo Bisons Jersey City Skeeters Montreal Royals Newark Indians Providence Grays Rochester Bronchos Toronto Maple Leafs American Association ------------------------ Columbus Senators Indianapolis Indians Kansas City Blues Louisville Colonels Milwaukee Brewers Minneapolis Millers St Paul Saints Toledo Mud Hens 350 Series Minor League subjects Abbott (Toledo) Adkins (Baltimore) Anderson (Providence) Armbruster (St Paul) Arndt (Providence) Barger (Rochester) Barry (Milwaukee) Batch (Rochester) Beckley (Kansas City) Blackburne (Providence) Brain (Buffalo) Brashear (Kansas City) Burchell (Buffalo) Burke (Indianapolis) Butler (Rochester) Carr (Indianapolis) Casey (Montreal) Cassidy (Baltimore) Chappelle (Rochester) Clancy (Buffalo) Clark (Columbus) Clymer (Columbus) Collins (Minneapolis) Congalton (Columbus) Cravath (Minneapolis) Cross (Indianapolis) Davidson (Indianapolis) Delehanty (Louisville) Dessau (Baltimore) Dorner (Kansas City) Downs (Minneapolis) Jack Dunn (Baltimore) Flanagan (Buffalo) Freeman (Toledo) Ganzel (Rochester) Grimshaw (Toronto) Hall (Baltimore) Hallman (Kansas City) Hannifan (Jersey City) Hayden (Indianapolis) Hinchman (Toledo) Hoffman (Providence) Jackson (Baltimore) Kelley (Toronto) Kisinger (Buffalo) Kruger (Columbus) Lattimore (Toledo) Lavender (Providence) Lundgren (Kansas City) Malarkey (Buffalo) Maloney (Rochester) McGann (Milwaukee) McGinley (Toronto) McGinnity (Newark) McGlynn (Milwaukee) Merritt (Jersey City) Milligan (Jersey City) Mitchell (Toronto) Moeller (Jersey City) Moran (Providence) Nattress (Buffalo) Oberlin (Minneapolis) O'Brien (St Paul) O'Neill (Minneapolis) Phelan (Providence) Pickering (Minneapolis) Poland (Baltimore) Puttman (Louisville) Quillen (Minneapolis) Randall (Milwaukee) Ritter (Kansas City) Rudolph (Toronto) Schirm (Buffalo) Schlafly (Newark) Schreck (Columbus) Shannon (Kansas City) Sharpe (Newark) Shaw (Providence) Slagle (Baltimore) Smith (Buffalo) Strang (Baltimore) Taylor (Buffalo) Thielman (Louisville) White (Buffalo) Wright (Toledo) Irv Young (Minneapolis) All these cards are found with PIEDMONT backs, and SWEET CAPORAL backs. Only 59 of them are found with SOVEREIGN backs (27 subjects are SOVEREIGN No-Prints). Furthermore, 80 of these Minor League cards were printed with tougher backs, such as the A-B-C-D backs. To date, 80 subjects have been confirmed with the AB and CYCLE backs. Approx. 75 with the BL 350 back. And, approx. 40 with the DRUM back. I expect that eventually more of these Minor Leaguer's will be found with the latter two backs. TED Z . Last edited by tedzan; 11-24-2018 at 11:56 AM. Reason: Corrected typo. |
#572
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T206 Reference....Reflections....FYI: 350 Series Minor Leaguer's checklist and trivia
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Regarding the 86 - Minor Leaguer's in the 350 Series, I was asked which 6 guys were not printed with any of the A - B - C - D backs ? These 6 subjects are No-Prints with respect to the A - B - C - D backs. Barger (Rochester) Collins (Minneapolis) Cross (Indianapolis) Lundgren (Kansas City) Puttman (Louisville) Shannon (Kansas City) TED Z . Last edited by tedzan; 11-24-2018 at 11:54 AM. Reason: Corrected typo. |
#573
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T206 Reference....Reflections......T206 Southern League cards illustrated
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
__________ The T206 Southern League cards represent players in 4 Leagues in "Dixie". Checklist for these 48 subjects is found in Post # 146 in this thread. Let's start with the 22 players representing the Virginia and South Atlantic Leagues (22) subjects In my opinion, the 2 toughest cards in this Southern League series are Ed Foster and Frank Shaughnessy. I cannot explain why Foster is so tough, but I do understand why Shaughnessy is tough. Frank has quite a "following". He played Baseball and Football during his years at Notre Dame (1901-1904). Played briefly for the Philadelphia A's in 1908. Frank is in three Hall of Fames....Canadian Football Hall of Fame, the Canadian Baseball Hall of Fame, and the McGill University Sports Hall of Fame. Frank was the Manager (and player) of the Roanoke Tigers 1909 - 1911. Furthermore, he was the President of the International League from 1936–1960. . Southern Association (20) subjects......these cards were also included in the 1910 COUPON issue. Texas League (6) subjects TED Z . |
#574
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T206 Reference....Reflections.....T206 "Monster" obsession ? ....Check-this-one-out !
Does this "mania" get any crazier than this ? ?
So you have "completed" your T206 set. But, the Monster has you hooked. Just like those classic lyrics in the song Hotel California tell us......... "you can check out any time you like....but, you can never leave" Anyhow, I found this Pennsylvania license plate in a little ole Antique shop many years ago, and put it on my 1960 Thunderbird. So, let's hear of your "Monster obsessions", I'm sure there are some very interesting ones. TED Z . |
#575
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Ted,
I accept part of the responsibility for the Monster obsession. If I'm not mistaken Heitman's book T 206 THE MONSTER created the association between the set and the monster term. Heitman seemed disturbed that the Monster Number thread fails to cite him in this regard. He told me he would sue for copyright infringement. Negotiations were held in an Anaheim Ice Cream Shop witnessed by none other than Large Ass Herzog. Heitman agreed to drop the suit and vowed to support the obsession he created. Below is my proof of this encounter. 1-Monster Auto.jpg To be honest I don't think he would have been persuaded without Large Ass looking over his wrist (?). When it comes to autograph authentication it never hurts to have a Large Ass in the room.
__________________
FRANK:BUR:KETT - RAUCOUS SPORTS CARD FORUM MEMBER AND MONSTER NUMBER FATHER. GOOD FOR THE HOBBY AND THE FORUM WITH A VAULT IN AN UNDISCLOSED LOCATION FILLED WITH NON-FUNGIBLES 274/1000 Monster Number Nearly*1000* successful B/S/T transactions completed from 2012 to 2024. Over 680 sales with satisfied Board members served. If you want fries with your order, just speak up. Thank you all. Now nearly PQ. Last edited by frankbmd; 11-29-2018 at 04:59 PM. |
#576
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T206 Reference....Reflections.....T206 "Monster" obsession ? ....Check-out this one !
Hi Frank....very interesting.
I have reprised my post #107 here, in which I refer to posts (dating back to 2005 - 2007) where Bill responded on Net54. I think readers will find them quite interesting....check them out. Quote:
Last edited by tedzan; 11-28-2018 at 05:37 PM. Reason: Corrected typo. |
#577
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T206 Reference....Reflections.....T206 "Monster" obsession ? ....Check-out this one !
Quote:
I cannot be the only "T206 nut" on this forum that has weird T206 obsessions. So, come on guys, show-n-tell us of your odd-ball "Monster" mania. ? Or better yet, stop by and see me at the Philly Show this weekend (booth # 209), and we can spend hours talking T206's. TED Z . |
#578
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The inclusion of Farrah Fawcett "cards" in Bill's Monster Book was a joke played on Bill by his publisher (I believe). Bill was upset about it, but didn't want to foot the bill for a Farrahless second printing.
The Pout left and Pout Right cards are my favorites. Farrah pouts.jpeg
__________________
FRANK:BUR:KETT - RAUCOUS SPORTS CARD FORUM MEMBER AND MONSTER NUMBER FATHER. GOOD FOR THE HOBBY AND THE FORUM WITH A VAULT IN AN UNDISCLOSED LOCATION FILLED WITH NON-FUNGIBLES 274/1000 Monster Number Nearly*1000* successful B/S/T transactions completed from 2012 to 2024. Over 680 sales with satisfied Board members served. If you want fries with your order, just speak up. Thank you all. Now nearly PQ. |
#579
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T206 Reference....Reflections.....T206 "Monster" obsession ? ....Check-out this one !
Quote:
Dennis Eckes (publisher) was infatuated with Farah Fawcett at that time (1980). Jim Beckett told me this back then. Recall that Dennis was also the publisher of the Beckett Price Guides (1979 to current). Incidentally, I like all 6 pix of the Farah in Bill's book. TED Z . |
#580
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Do the T215-1 cards belong in the T206 set ?
* * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * *
Shown here are some of the stars in the T215-1 set The RED CROSS (T215-1) set consists of 96 cards. Some of the RED CROSS cards were issued in 1910, and a 2nd series of cards were issued in early 1912. This fact is evident by team trades reflected in the captions of certain 2nd series cards. RED CROSS tobacco products were produced in Jersey City, NJ (Factory #10) by the Lorillard Tobacco Co. Lorillard was a subsidiary of American Tobacco Co. American Lithographic (ALC) printed their 1st series of the T215-1 cards during the production run of the T206 cards in 1910. What is quite interesting in this process of printing the T215-1 cards, ALC intermixed T206 subjects from their 150, 350, and 460 Series. The 2nd series followed in the Spring of 1912. Regarding the T215-1 captions, note that they are printed with BROWN ink....which clearly identifies these cards as having been printed by ALC prior to 1913. ALC switched to printing captions with BLUE ink for their white-bordered sets from 1913 - 1919 (T213-2, T213-3, T214, T215-2) T215-1 Checklist..... 96 subjects Ames (hands over head) Baker Ball (Cleveland) Bender (trees) Bender (no trees) Bridwell (portrait-cap) M. Brown (Chicago) Byrne Pittsburgh Camnitz (arm at side) Chance (batting) Chase (trophy) Cobb (bat off shoulder) Eddie Collins (A's) Conroy (bat) Crandall (portrait-cap) Crawford (bat) Cree Harry Davis Cleveland Devore Donlin (bat) Pittsburgh Doolan Dougherty (arm in air) L. Doyle (bat)) L. Doyle (portrait) Dubuc Elberfeld (fielding) Ford Fromme Griffith (bat) Washington Hartsel Toledo Herzog New York NL Hoblitzel Hofman Howard Huggins (portrait) St Louis NL Huggins (hands/mouth) (Cincinnati) Hummel Jennings (one hand) Jennings (two hands) Johnson (pitching) Kelley Konetchy (glove low) Krause Lajoie (bat) Lake (no ball) Latham Leifield (bat) Lord Chicago AL Magee (bat) Marquard (portrait) Marquard (pitching) Mathewson (white cap) Mathewson (dark cap) McGinnity McGraw (portrait-cap) McGraw (glove) Harry McIntyre Chicago NL Matty McIntyre Chicago AL Merkle (throwing) Meyers Miller Mowrey St Louis NL Mullin(bat) Murphy (bat) Murray (portrait) Oakes St Louis NL Oldring (bat) O'Leary (hands on knees) Paskert Pelty (vertical) Purtell Quinn Reulbach (no glove) Rucker (throwing) Schaefer (Washington) Schulte (back view) Sheckard (glove) Frank Smith Cincinnati Speaker Stahl (glove) Steinfeldt (bat) St. Louis NL Street (portrait) Street (catching) Sweeney (New York AL) Tannehill (Chicago AL) Tinker (bat off shoulder) Tinker (bat on shoulder) Wagner (bat on right) Warhop Wheat Doc White (pitching) Willetts Wilson Wiltse (portrait-cap)) Wiltse (pitching) Cy Young (glove) Boston NL TRADES....circa 1909 - Spring 1912 that are reflected on these T215-1 cards. Bobby Byrne.................from St Louis NL to Pittsburg on Aug 19, 1909 Harry Davis......…………….Dec. 1911 signed a contract to manage Cleveland Mike Donlin...................from Boston NL to Pittsburg on February 17, 1912 Clark Griffith.................signed a contract to manage Washington in Oct 1911 Topsy Hartsel............…..signed by Toledo (A A) in the Fall of 1911 Buck Herzog..................from Boston NL to New York NL on July 22, 1911 Miller Huggins (port).......from Cincinnati to St Louis on Feb 3, 1910 Harry Lord.....................from Boston AL to Chicago AL on Aug 11, 1910 Harry McIntyre...............from Brooklyn to Chicago NL on April 13, 1910 Matty McIntyre...............from Detroit to Chicago AL on Jan 12, 1911 Mike Mowrey..................from Cincinnati to St Louis NL on August 22, 1909 Rebel Oakes................….from Cincinnati to St Louis on Feb 3, 1910 Frank Smith...............…..from Boston AL to Cincinnati on May 11, 1911 Harry Steinfeldt........…….1912 Spring training tryout with St Louis NL Cy Young (glove)………….…signed with Boston Rustlers Aug 19, 1911 Hey guys This project is still a work in progress....I may have some errors here. Therefore, feel free to correct me. I will really appreciate your inputs. And, post your T215-1 cards....it's always neat to see some of these rarely seen tobacco cards. TED Z . Last edited by tedzan; 12-16-2018 at 11:00 AM. Reason: Corrected typo. |
#581
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Do the T215-1 cards belong in the T206 set ?
* * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * *
Shown here are some of the stars in the T215-1 set Since no one has responded to the question.... "Do the T215-1 RED CROSS cards belong in the T206 set ?"..... my answer is YES, and NO ! YES for the cards printed and issued circa Spring/Summer 1910....and NO for the cards printed and issued circa Spring 1912. In the Spring/Summer of 1910, ALC was printing sheets of 350 Series (T206) cards. Furthermore, the printing of 1910 COUPON (T213-1) and RED CROSS (1st series) cards coincided with this timeline in the printing of the various T-brands of the T206 set. My initial analysis of the 1st series of T215-1 cards indicates that at least 23 subjects were derived from this 350 Series printing of T206's. These 23 are...… Bender (trees) Byrne (St Louis) Eddie Collins (A's) Cree Doolan Dubuc Fromme Hoblitzel Hofman Howard Huggins (hands/mouth) Kelley Krause Marquard (portrait) McGinnity Miller Paskert Purtell Quinn Speaker Street (portrait) Warhop Wilson Also from the 150/350 series, Mathewson (white cap) was included for a starting total of 24 subjects printed in the 1st series of T215-1 cards. Further research is continuing in order to figure out how many more cards were in this 1st series. Anyhow, let's get a meaningful discussion going here. It's amazing the BB card mysteries Net54 members have solved over the years when they share their theories. So, let's hear your opinions regarding this subject ? ? TED Z . |
#582
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I am undecided as to whether t215-1 (and t213-1) should be considered t206s, but I am working on several back runs and fully feel i need the type 1 version of the cards to complete the back run. In fact, I would like to get all t213 and t215 versions (including pirate back), as well as t214, to do a true and complete back run. Doesn’t answer your question Ted, but maybe advances the topic a bit.
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#583
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I would say no since we don't know the full list of who was printed in 1910 and who was 1912. It makes sense to me that both series of cards be grouped together as their own set.
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#584
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Do the T215-1 cards belong in the T206 set ?
Quote:
Hi Ryan Spoken like a true "white-bordered tobacco card collector"......good luck with your T-card runs. I try for all of American Litho's printed front/back combos in my serious T-card runs. Starting with my very 1st acquisition of the blue Chase (Willow Grove Show, March 1981)………. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Fac. #30..................Fac. #42 ................Fac. #42 . A - B - C - C - D connection Since 1981 (when I initially start my blue Chase run), I have never seen this T206 with a DRUM back. I have hope that eventually one will show up. This run continues into the next post here...……… TED Z . |
#585
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CONTINUATION from previous post.
Lucky for me that the blue Chase was NOT printed with the RED CROSS back
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . TED Z . |
#586
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Quote:
PS- Merkle throwing Bresnahan batting Street catching, also missing the Red Hindu |
#587
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Do the T215-1 cards belong in the T206 set ?
Quote:
GOOD LUCK...finding the RED CROSS (T215-1) cards. You'll most likely find the red HINDU Street before you will find any of those RED CROSS (T215-1) cards. If I intend to run the entire white-bordered route, I start by "reverse engineering" the run....that is to start by acquiring the RED CROSS first, then follow up with all the rest of the cards. For example, that's how I began my Dots Miller run with this T215-1 card. Only nine backs needed in the T206 group, of which I still need the BROAD LEAF 350, CAROLINA BRIGHTS and DRUM (although, DRUM has yet to be confirmed for Miller). TED Z . |
#588
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Do the T215-1 cards belong in the T206 set ?
* * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * *
Shown here are some of the stars in the T215-1 set Just a tidbit of Tobacco trivia...... P. Lorillard is the oldest tobacco products manufacturer in the U.S. ? Listed here is a breakdown of the 96 subjects in the T215-1 set with respect to their series in the T206 set...……….. 150/350 Series…...Summer/Fall 1909 Mathewson (white cap) 350-only Series…...Spring/Summer1910 Bender (trees) Byrne (St Louis) Eddie Collins (A's) Cree Doolan Dubuc Fromme Hartsel Hoblitzel Hofman Howard Huggins (portrait) Huggins (hands/mouth) Kelley Krause Lord Marquard (portrait) McGinnity Matty McIntyre Miller Mowrey Oakes Paskert Purtell Quinn Speaker Street (portrait) Warhop Wilson 350/460 Series…...Fall/Winter 1910 Ames (hands over head) Baker Bender (no trees) M. Brown (Chicago) Cobb (bat off shoulder) Conroy (bat) Crawford (bat) Davis (A's) Donlin (bat) Dougherty (arm in air) L. Doyle (bat)) Elberfeld (fielding) Griffith (bat) Jennings (one hand) Jennings (two hands) Johnson (pitching) Konetchy (glove low) Lajoie (bat) Lake (no ball) Leifield (bat) Magee (bat) Mathewson (dark cap) Harry McIntyre Mullin(bat) Murphy (bat) O'Leary (hands on knees) Pelty (vertical) Reulbach (no glove) Rucker (throwing) Frank Smith Stahl (glove) Steinfeldt (bat) Street (catching) Jeff Sweeney Tinker (bat off shoulder) Wagner (bat on right) Doc White (pitching) Willetts Wiltse (pitching) Cy Young (glove) 460-only Series…...Winter 1910/Spring 1911 Ball (Cleveland) Bridwell (portrait-cap) Camnitz (arm at side) Chance (batting) Chase (trophy) Crandall (portrait-cap) Devore L. Doyle (portrait) Ford Herzog Hummel Latham Marquard (pitching) McGraw (portrait-cap) McGraw (glove) Merkle (throwing) Meyers Murray (portrait) Oldring (bat) Schaefer (Washington) Schulte (back view) Sheckard (glove) Tannehill (Chicago) Tinker (bat on shoulder) Wheat Wiltse (portrait-cap) OK, given the above list and the trades which resulted in new teams in the subjects captions (see post #580), let's see who is the Net54 genius that can logically figure out the 1st series T215-1 cards which were issued in 1910. And, as a result we will identify which cards were issued in 1912.....besides these 15 whose team changed from their T206 counterpart...… Byrne Pittsburgh Harry Davis Cleveland Donlin (bat) Pittsburg Griffith (bat) Washington Hartsel Toledo Herzog New York NL Huggins (portrait) St Louis NL Lord Chicago AL Harry McIntyre Chicago NL Matty McIntyre Chicago AL Mowrey St Louis NL Oakes St Louis NL Frank Smith Cincinnati Steinfeldt (bat) St. Louis NL Cy Young (glove) Boston NL TED Z . Last edited by tedzan; 12-16-2018 at 10:37 AM. Reason: Corrected typo. |
#589
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Hi Ted, isn't there a RED CROSS Bresnahan batting in the 350 Series?
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#590
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Do the T215-1 cards belong in the T206 set ?
Sean
The Bresnahan that you are referring to is found only in the T215-2 set. I have never seen a T215 Bresnahan (with bat) with a BROWN caption. I always double-check my T215-1 data by referring to the PIRATE set of cards (which are a known quantity, and are essentially a mirror image of the T215-1 cards). . TED Z . |
#591
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Okay, thanks Ted.
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#592
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Do the T215-1 cards belong in the T206 set ?
You're welcome, Sean
Ole buddy, we both like to do T-card runs, so it behooves you to check-in with me regarding whether certain front/back combos exist. Otherwise you'll find yourself on a "wild goose" chase for cards that don't really exist. TED Z . |
#593
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Quote:
Bresnahan batting, which you told me only exists in a Type-2; Street catching, which I believe is in both the Type-1 and Type-2 varieties; Merkle fielding, which you've said is a Type-1 card. Does it also come as a Type-2? |
#594
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Quote:
Correcto on Bresnahan (batting). Double correcto on Street (catching). Merkle (throwing....excuse me for correcting you) exists as a T215-1 card and T215-2 card. TED Z . |
#595
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Hey Ted,
Curious -- where do you get Merkle on the Type 2 checklist? I only have Merkle on the Type 1 and Pirate checklists but not on the Type 2. If anybody has as scan of either Type 1 or 2, I'd love to see it -- I don't have confirmation for my checklists. Cheers, Steve |
#596
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Do the T215-1 cards belong in the T206 set ?
Hi Steve
Merkle (throwing) is listed as a T215-2 card in Bob Lemke's Standard Catalog of Vintage BB Cards. And, I'm assuming this is correct since Merkle has been confirmed as a T215-1 and a PIRATE card. Best wishes for the Holidays. TED Z . |
#597
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Thanks, Ted.
Looking at my lists again, I did have Merkle on my individual Type 1 and 2 lasts but for some reason didn't have the Type 2 on my combined list that I keep separately. Guess I'm that much further from perfect. Happy holidays and a happy new year to you as well! Steve |
#598
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T206 Reference/Reflections...Any guesses why no CHESTERFIELD or LUCKY STRIKE T-cards?
Hey guys,
I may be wrong, but I have not seen any Sports or Non-Sports tobacco cards with either the CHESTERFIELD brand or the LUCKY STRIKE brand on them. In 1905, ATC acquired the the R.A. Paterson Co....maker of LUCKY STRIKE cigarettes. So, how come there aren't any T206's with a LUCKY STRIKE back ? In in 1912 (after ATC's divestiture), Liggett & Myers introduced the CHESTERFIELD cigarette brand with the slogan "They do satisfy". Chesterfield Cigarette compact (5 5/8 " x 4 1/2 ") Compact open.....and it's empty.....my CHESTERFIELD cigarettes went up in smoke Anyone on this forum have any thoughts as to why these two major T-brands were not printed on insert premiums for cigarette packs ? TED Z . |
#599
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T206 Reference/Reflections...Any guesses why no CHESTERFIELD or LUCKY STRIKE T-cards?
Exactly 100 years after L & M introduced the CHESTERFIELD brand, we have here a very colorful advertisement (dated May 2012)
with some familiar faces from the 1947 Season. Hey guys, I'm still waiting for anyone on this forum who has any thoughts (or information) as to why the CHESTERFIELD and LUCKY STRIKE brands were not printed on insert premiums for cigarette packs (circa 1909 - 1919 era) ? TED Z . |
#600
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Ted, email sent.
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